I’d like to know what size round wire is used to make twisted wire
bangles similar to the trademark David Yurman bracelet. I assume the
wire would need to be straightened, annealed, pickled and polished
before twisting. I’m also wondering what length of wires to start
with, as the twisting will draw them up a bit.
Thanks for any tips.
Cathy
I'd like to know what size round wire is used to make twisted wire bangles similar to the trademark David Yurman bracelet.
So what you’re saying is you want to copy Yurman’s trademarked
designs (even if they are all based on some old Celt designs)? And
you’ve just posted it on the web? You don’t think his cadre of
lawyers are out trolling for this kind of all the time?
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
So what you're saying is you want to copy Yurman's trademarked designs (even if they are all based on some old Celt designs)? And you've just posted it on the web? You don't think his cadre of lawyers are out trolling for this kind of all the time?
Daniel, no I don’t plan to market any type of copy in any way shape
or form to “copy” David Yurman’s copyrighted designs. Thanks for the
slam.
I only seek to learn technique and not rob someone of
their original design. But thank you for the education on law and
lawyers. My first job is being a legal assistant for the past twenty
three years, 4 years for a patent and trademark lawfirm.
My apologies, Mr. Yurman, as it was not my intent to take anything
away from your elegant works.
Since your questions were so specific, I didn’t say this before. One
of the best things about Maryon’s “Metalwork And Enameling” (Dover
Press) is that in the middle of the book are 4 or 5 pages of twisted
wire photos. Very, very useful. “Twisted square wire twisted together
with two twisted round wires.”, etc. Really cool.
Cathy - since I don’t get out much - the chain between my ankle and
bench, and all that… I looked at David Yurman’s bracelets online,
though. You can’t copyright twisted wire, BTW. I was making twisted
wire bracelets before he was born. His twists are multiple wires.
Your
basic twist is two wires, if not a square or triangular wire. That’s
what most people call a “rope”. To get that big, fat, dense twist,
though, takes 3,4,6 - even 8 wires twisted together - you can also
“hide” a twisted wire as one of the wires. For a 2-wire twist, you
just fold one wire in half, put the ends in a vise, and twist away.
Either put a rod in the loop of the wire, or do it the easy way with
an electric drill and a cuphook. To twist 6 wires, though, you need
to
solder one end or both. The wires MUST not come free, meaning both
ends of all wires have to remain fixed together. If you’re the casual
worker (no exotic equipment) you’ll probably get flaws in the twist,
so you’ll need to allow for some waste. And - there’s no real formula
for how much the twisting will shorten the wires - it depends on how
tight the twist is, for one. But it’s not a little, it’s a lot, like
1/2 at times.
The yurman cables are hollow. Meaning if you slice one open you see
eight tubes in a circle with no supporting core. Apparently this can
be done with a jig that holds all the tubing in place and twists it
around a removable core. It will twist only so much before it binds
against the core. Once the core is removed the cable is bent in
whatever fashion needed. It holds itself together if the tubes are
kept from creeping out the ends
I can’t say how Yurman does it for sure but this is how I worked out
a system that replicates the look. Before I too get prematurely
accused off ripping off Mr Yurman let me say I did this for my own
curiosity. I never sold a cable anything. I was for a time called
upon to repair a lot of it though and needed to know its general
construction. Things like sizing bracelets, repairing dented tubes
etc. I am not advocating anyone knock off Yurman or anyone else. Just
sharing my experience in response to a technical question.
Maybe the original poster was just curious. I see no malice in that.
John,
looked at David Yurman's bracelets online, though. You can't copyright twisted wire, BTW. I was making twisted wire bracelets before he was born.
I was making them too (although since he’s my age, I doubt it was
before he was born) long ago–and the Celts were doing almost exactly
what he does 1000 years ago, but in fact he has copyrighted them. If
you put ends on a twisted wire bracelet that remotely resemble his
you should expect to be sued by him. He is exceedingly aggressive
about protecting his copyright and, to the best of my knowledge, has
won every case he’s brought to court. I’m not defending his actions,
just letting you know that with a large enough team of lawyers you
can copyright anything and defend it.
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
This whole business of Yurman’s bracelets being copyrighted is a real
joke. How can he claim a copyright on something that is a basic
technique of twisting wire, that all the ancient jewlers used back
in antiquity. It is also one of the basic technics we learned in
metalsmith classes. We used to have contests to see who could twist
the most wires and come up with something fairly presentable. As
John points out most of us learned this technique " before Yurman was
born." Yet I notice that every time a picture of his work is shown
in a magazine ad, it carries the copyright sign. Next he will be
getting a copyright on basic soldering.
Alma
Niel,
The yurman cables are hollow. Meaning if you slice one open you see eight tubes in a circle with no supporting core. Apparently this can be done with a jig that holds all the tubing in place and twists it around a removable core.
This type of cable has been available from a New York City supplier,
Myron Tobak, for many years. I remember buying some in the late 70’s,
before David Yurman’s appearance on the scene.
Joel Schwalb
This type of cable has been available from a New York City supplier, Myron Tobak, for many years. I remember buying some in the late 70's, before David Yurman's appearance on the scene.
Now that you mention that, it rings a distant bell. This suggests to
me that it would be an important subject, that of what truly
qualifies as a copyright infringement.
Judging from the responses and indeed my own concept of what
constitutes the Yurman look (…as an example, one which is quite
distinctive even to non jewelers) the concensus might be that fat
cable is the look. But as you say the cable was commercially
available beforehand. I wonder how the court sees it. Is it merely
fat cable or the combination of cable and finials? Or some other
aesthetic that’s involved?
I have no clue how to go about researching court rulings relating to
this. I would hope to find a reliable definition, the doctrine of “I
know it when I see it” is perhaps too subjective and risky. Again I
cite Yurman only as an example, it could be Boin, Dunay or anybody.
If someone wanted to explore cable designs it would be very important
to know where the line is that shouldn’t be crossed. One might view
that as “how close can I go and get away with it” or “what do I need
to avoid to maintain my integrity”. I see a distinction there, the
first suggests an intent to copy, the second suggests honoring the no
infringement ideal in a good faith manner.
Yurman has a “Trade Dress” copyright. Refers to a recognizable body
of work, much different than the copyright on a single piece based
on a unique design feature and not easy to get. There’s Cost the last
guy who ignored his design rights $750,000. Of course, feel free to
do whatever you wish…
Wayne
How can he claim a copyright on something that is a basic technique of twisting wire, that all the ancient jewlers used back in antiquity. It is also one of the basic technics we learned in metalsmith classes.
He can’t copyright something as basic as a twisted wire technique. I
think the copyright is on the whole package though. You or anyone
else is free to make a twisted wire anything, but, if you put the
same kinds of “stations” and ends on them as he does, that’s where
the copyright issue comes up. I looked at them and my take on it is,
hey, if that guy can get 450 for a silver bangle (hollow no less)
with small gold accents, more power to him.
Kim
Daniel,
If you were making the twisted wire bracelets before he was and you
made them after the 1978 copyright law changes, you may just have an
earlier copyright than he does!
Brian Corll
Vassar Jewelers
This whole business of Yurman's bracelets being copyrighted is a real joke. How can he claim a copyright on something that is a basic
It’s not because he thinks it’s new (if he’s typical), it’s because
he wants to chase away the competition…
Not to beat a dead (and I mean dead) horse. These are from the
British Museum, Ca 250-200 BC. Take off the horse heads and the beads
and Well I’m sure you’ll see a striking resemblance. Must be
time travel or something - it’s the only possible answer…
The yurman cables are hollow. Meaning if you slice one open you see eight tubes in a circle with no supporting core. Apparently this can be done with a jig that holds all the tubing in place and twists it around a removable core.
I’ll point out that although Neil is certainly right, since he
looked into it, that doesn’t mean that you have to use tubing if you
want to work in that style. Tubing will save weight, both in cost and
on the wrist, but if you’re just a joe-blow jeweler, like me, without
tubing-specific equipment, it’s going to be prohibitive to work it.
You can get the same results with wire, if you want to try some of
that work. They’re probably using some form of spring-winder, which
is a lathe that feeds wire at the same determined rate as the mandrel
is turning - that you can also do by hand, carefully.
I'd like to know what size round wire is used to make twisted wire bangles similar to the trademark David Yurman bracelet.
You’ll have to excuse me for jumping in on such a late date on this
subject, but have just recently had my computer back in a heated
space. If you want to know how that twisted wire is made, go talk to
an old cowboy that still makes his own ropes and lariats. There’s
both hollow and solid. Hollow uses a core. Solid does not. Done with
a rotating drum with several differently spaced vises or clamps for
the rope. Depends on how many twisted leads as to how the clamps were
spaced. Some had even and odd spacing for the same drum. Think
Gatling gun, which is where the idea came from, meaning rope making.
Go look at one in a cowboy museum, like Will Rogers Museum.
Believe me, Yurman hasn’t done anything new, and he doesn’t do the
work himself anyway. He has lots of ‘little elves’ helping him. He
gets those high-priced lawyers by overpricing his work. More power
to him. Wish he would write a marketing book.
Message to the vain- glorious Mr Yurman’s team of lawyers.
Please visit the Caribbean islands and look in the windows of the
’eastern jewellers’. You will find lots and lots of sue-ing work.
I too have a twisted wire bangle in my shop. I made it. It is made
of REAL honest to goodness stainless steel yacht cable and 18kt gold.
I like wearing it. It gives me an enormous sense of belonging and
well being amongst the yacht crowd.
P.S If you do come, don’t forget your swimming costumes and sunblock.
I’ll help you swim amongst REAL sharks. Yours sincerely, Hansie (the
cable wearer.)
Yurman has a "Trade Dress" copyright. Refers to a recognizable body of work, much different than the copyright on a single piece based on a unique design feature and not easy to get. There's Cost the last guy who ignored his design rights $750,000. Of course, feel free to do whatever you wish.....
I would like to here more about this particular kind of copyright.
James?
I also wonder if the people Yurman has gone after are doing straight
knock-offs.
But anything is possible. Stephen Covey managed to copyright “First
Things First.” I don’t know what rights it gives him, but I hear he’s
actually a nice guy (from a mutual acquaintance), so I assume he’s
not going to be suing 12 Step programs…
Much bewildered by the world and the law,
Lisa Orlando
Albion, CA, US
Tubing will save weight, both in cost and on the wrist,
John, you’re right of course. From working it I could see that the
wires (or theoretical tubing) supported each other, and against the
core. The deformation isn’t all that much considering there are no
sharp bends. The reason I opted for solid wire is that I tend to
overbuild things, a throw back to my hotrodder days. I hate being
embarrassed by mechanical failure. But the consequence is exactly as
you point out, the resultant bracelet was heavy on the wrist. You
could run over it with your car on a gravel driveway and it’d just
need a polish, but it was heavy to wear. But then some people like a
heavy piece.