Can a cast piece match handmade?

Jewelry Discussion
81

Mario’s violin in direct metal fabrication is absolutly gorgeous and
could not be reproduced as well by the wax carving process in my
opinion. It would loose some of the crispness and the details would
not be as sharp. Classic prongs for instance would be an other
obvious exemple of pieces for which direct metal fabrication would
be superior to a casting.

This being said, wax carving would be far superior to any chased or
repousse work for some naturalistic pieces and fabric folds
(especially covering a human form) as it can best capture a flow and
movement rarely achieved by direct metal fabrication.

Somehow, even carving a block of metal directly can also look
stiffer than a skillful wax carving in my experience. The Renaissance
and Art Nouveau movements understood it very well and of often used
a mix of wax carving and direct fabrication for this very reason.

It seems to me that each method lends itself best to a specific
application and design although similar results might be achieved by
one or more options.

Cyrille

82

why does hand made have to be better than cast ? if one hand makes a
cast piece by carving the wax and doing all the process ones self
with your own hands then isn’t that hand making a cast piece ?

Constructing a beautifull piece of jewelry out of metal, gold or
silver has its advantages and constructing a piece of jewelry out of
wax and castingthe piece has its advantages as well.

i have made pieces of jewelry where i shaped wax as it were sheet
metal and then cast them and then assembled the individual pieces
because i felt i was working to my best advantage to save materials
and time.

if it is advantageous i even mix the two techniques together place
cast parts on sheet or stock constructions (:open_mouth: oh my )

at other times i have gone straight to the metal to avoid waiting
for wax to invest to burnout for a piece that i had to have right
now and the job wasnt all that difficult to begin with. some times
hand made is better than cast and other times cast IS better than
hand made it depends on the situation. In closing Quality is Quality,
a good cast piece CAN match and be better than a bad hand made piece
and a good hand made piece CAN match and be better than a bad cast
piece each method has the potential to achieve greatness :smiley:

goo

83

My first post so apologies if I do something wrong. There always more
than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Do what your best at
to achieve the desired result. Personally I carve wax, I love to
carve wax. I dont like to fabricate, I can and do occasionally but I
dont like it. A little bit of old and new here,

http://www.williamjosephdesigns.com/ all one of a kind, handcarved
wax some even have the work shown. Lately Ive been useing a CAD
program just for modelling purposes then carving the wax from an
approved render. I’m still learning that but getting better at it
everyday. Never stop learning !!

Bil

84

Well said goo!

I was going through some old boxes yesterday and came across several
lines of my production work from the late 80’s…

One line were little sterling floral form pendants–orchids, lilies,
etc.–about 3/4-1.5" long cast in sterling. I made the masters from
22g pink sheet wax (not the stiff base plate) from which I cut a
little delta shaped blanks and then formed and rolled hollow shapes
with my fingers (and hands :)) and small tools, using my body heat or
warm water to keep the wax soft and malleable. I could “pull” the wax
with my fingers, stretching and “forging” it into anticlastic and
complex bends. This imparted a real vitality to the little forms.

I added little grape like clusters of wax balls and tendrils from 14
ga green newal wax wires which I also heat stretched with my fingers
and a flame. Just the right pulling force and heat yielded a sweet
taper. I certainly could forge the tapers and solder on the balls,
but I could not have yielded the floral results in metal… I am now
very good at fabricating hollow and biomorphic forms, but I doubt I
could replicate those forms directly in metal even years (and
experience) later.

These were then cast, cleaned up for hours and rubber molded. Each
second generation pendant was hand finished using rubberized
abrasives and flex shaft tools. Sometimes prong settings were added
and stones set.

Very labor intensive… Many hours of hand work post casting…

Another line were brooches and earrings with a more fabricated look,
featuring reticulated elements and forgings. I fabricated the
masters and then cast the elements individually. After casting, I
added other elements fabricated from sheet and then assembled and
soldered these to the cast elements. This yielded a piece that looked
fabricated – and, in fact was, --albeit from a series of cast and
sawn elements…

Totally fabricating each piece back then would have made the cost
astronomical. Casting allowed me to produce a number of stock and
consistent parts that I could make into set pieces or vary and
reassemble into new work.

These line item/catalogue pieces could certainly have been cast in
one piece and finished. But it gave a much better product (crisper,
cleaner) if I could pre-finish each cast element before soldering
together as a whole rather than trying to get into tight areas of a
complete casting.

So, in the first instance I firmly believe that casting was the best
method because of the particular qualities of the wax that I was
using and the way I worked. In the second instance, casting gave me
the cleanest possible outcome and the highest quality product (for
the money that I could charge).

In neither instance did I ever question whether I was producing a
hand-made item…

Have a good weekend.
Andy

85 
why does hand made have to be better than cast ?

Is a casted piece inferior to something else? I have seen a lot of
jewelers manufactures in my life - good and bad things. Perhaps i
should introduce my self at this point, well knowing that words on
papers doesn’t count. My name is Mario Sarto. I am a goldsmith with
master craftsmans diploma, i am an instructor and a trained designer.
Our family do this craft since 1767. Our son, i hope, will be the
eighth generation. In this long time we have used every technology
that was available on the market to date inclusive the latest casting
machines with over- and low pressure and vibration.

Some are upset about the terms handmade or casted. But why? A simple
pencil is a tool, a hammer is a tool. A computer, a milling-machine,
a casting-machine - they are only tools in my hand! They can only
do what i want them to do. Every piece of this tools has its pros and
cons. Humans are limited by them self. We are not able to drill a
hole by hand like a milling-machine can do. But remember, the machine
only does, what i want it to do. So at the end, nearly everything is
done by hand. Do i hear someone saying carving a wax clump by hand is
more quality or/and more worth? I say no! It could be done by a
machine much more accurate and much faster every time you want. This
is not the point about we should altercate.

The question was, if handmade is better than casting. I repeat,
related to design, no, related to quality, yes. Define handmade:
fabricate a piece using the techniques casting, milling, annealing,
forging, sawing, bending, welding, soldering and polishing. Define
casting: fabricate the same piece using the techniques casting and/or
CAD/CAM (wax-casting) without milling and forging!

I have posted a picture someone called a “nice line art”.

It's already been mentioned that the difference would only be seen
using a microscope.

Please believe me, i don’t want to affront anyone, but my answer to
that is, learn the metallurgical basics first. I can see the
difference with the naked eye, i can feel the difference when
polishing and engraving such pieces and i have worn casted pieces on
my bench every day. Yes, casted pieces nagged much earlier than
forged ones, they don’t have the durability. And there is another
thing i often see on casted pieces, it is the bad finish. Wire,
prongs and openings are bad polished or they are not at all polished.
The rough casted-surface is viewable often. I don’t say all, i say a
lot of them. The question is why? There are only two possible
answers. The first is, the piece has to be cheap and a lot of
reworking will not be paid. The second answer is, the jeweler is not
able to do a high quality refinishing job.

Another often seen thing are the alloys used when casting,
especially when casting Platinum. A lot of jewelers use the poor
Platinum-Cobalt alloy. Yes, it is great for casting, but it has the
appalling physical quality of them all. Much to soft when used as a
ring shank…

What are the pros for casting? It is cheaper because it could be
done in a short time. A intricate piece could be done in less than
three hours. It is cheaper because it could be done by a semi-skilled
worker. And the biggest pro is you can produce a lot of equal (or
different) looking pieces any time you want in one go.

But when it comes to real high quality, no casted piece can beat a
piece made entirely by hand from a long lasting skilled
bench-jeweler/goldsmith.

Mario Sarto

86 
Totally fabricating each piece back then would have made the cost
astronomical. Casting allowed me to produce a number of stock and
consistent parts that I could make into set pieces or vary and
reassemble into new work.

Andy’s statement above is “How Jewelry Is Made in the Real World.”
Seems what’s left of this thread has gone beyond “Can it?” To some
“This is Why and How” education, which is a good thing, IMO.

Lots of people here do what they do - we went to a show last week
(because we were in it, mostly) that included a talk by an enamelist
who’s also a teacher at a prominent art college, with a slide show.
Once again, she does what she does, and all her work looked the same.

What I do is special order jewelry (I’m far from the only
one…). That means that people bring me things to make, and I
never know what’s coming in the door next. I like it… I just passed
on a large fragment of abalone, almost the size of your hand, to be
made into a silver belt buckle, We’re very, very busy. That means
that I need to make the decisions Andy lays out on a daily basis, and
sometimes it’s 50/50 cast or fabricate and I flip a coin. In my mind
there is no line at all - rolling metal, bending it, stretching it,
stone setting, engraving, casting. It’s just the arsenal of things
available to make it, and there is no right or wrong about it, just
using the best and most economical methods to get the job done.

I break “the rules” you learned in college on a daily basis, too.
Just make it…

87

Long ago I chose to be a fabricator and a jewellery repair
specialist. They go together. Casting is a whole extra craft
requiring lots of equipment, skill and experience, and space. The
casting houses have all that in abundance.

As a repairer I see good and bad examples whether cast or
fabricated. The main problem with cast items occurs when they try to
replicate fine detail. Casting an ear ring post, some engraving, a
twisted wire, granulation, intricate piercing…these are cast and
passed off as good enough and that’s what they are if the whole
process is mass-production. Customers will not notice the difference
at first but they learn and eventually choose between price and
quality.

I admit that sometimes I have to look at a piece of jewellery under
the microscope to determine whether it is cast or fabricated. These
are really good castings finished beyond a tumble or a whiz on the
sander…quite rare. If a suitable casting is hand cut and finished
then the difference becomes immaterial.

Alastair

88

coming from a design point of view, one very good thing about wax
carving is that you can come up with all kinds of wild looking things
that you might not think of unless you are carving a material(i.e.
lee epperson rings, hans meevis??, maori jewelry), yes of course you
can then go back and make the same piece better, or not by working
wire, sheet, and ingot, i cut my castings apart and use them as
findings in other designs, bails, possible beads, etc, or solder
them together in different arrangements to make models.

Fact is, that there are many designs that you would never come
across if you didn’t carve wax, dave

89 
I admit that sometimes I have to look at a piece of jewellery
under the microscope to determine whether it is cast or fabricated.
These are really good castings finished beyond a tumble or a whiz
on the sander..quite rare. If a suitable casting is hand cut and
finished then the difference becomes immaterial.

That’s what I consider to be a casting, not a slap-dash job. The
word is fine casting, not just casting.

A couple of people I know do a lost (wait for it)… insect casting.
They use very fine investment plasters (some make the plasters
themselves, and probably will develop silicosis) to encapsulate
insects and arachnids.

The best examples I’ve seen retain extremely fine details like the
hairs on a spider’s abdomen. They seem to just use fine silver, I’m
sure 24k would work as well, as this seems best to pick up the finer
details. Bronze seems to need larger sprue trees, so I don’t think
bronze would work as well.

I’m sure hand fabrication could be done, but personally I wouldn’t
like to fabricate the hairs on a spider’s back out of any metal :wink:

Regards Charles

90 
In my mind there is no line at all - rolling metal, bending it,
stretching it, stone setting, engraving, casting. It's just the
arsenal of things available to make it, and there is no right >or
wrong about it, just using the best and most economical methods to
get the job done.

This reminds me of a pendant a jeweler brought in for me to help him
appraise. It was unusual and he wanted a second opinion as to the
value. Without going into detail it was a bit of a hodgepodge of
stones and metal. I brokeit down, figured what it would take to
remake it and gave them my opinion of it’s replacement value.
Apparently I undervalued it in the opinion of it’s maker. He send me
a three page letter detailing how he had made and mixed the alloy,
cut the stones from slabs, hand fabricated this and that using a very
unusual selection of tools…and so on. I felt bad because I = hadn’t
wanted to insult anyone. I couldn’t help but wonder why on earth he
had picked the absolute hardest possible way to make that piece? And
how could he expect to charge more because of his choices? It would
be like me making a Bic pen from scratch and wanting to charge $2000
for it when you can buy one for $1. It left an impression on me.

Mark

91 
It would be like me making a Bic pen from scratch and wanting to
charge $2000 for it when you can buy one for $1. It left an
impression on me.

This is the same kind of question like “why buy an Austin Martin,
when basic Honda will get you from point A to point B, almost just as
well?” The answer hides in definition of “almost”, and how important
it is to a particular client.

If the cheapest possible price would be the only objective,
everybody would be still driving model “T”, wearing the same clothes,
and gourmet restaurants would not exist at all.

Leonid Surpin

92

Ha ha Charles,

The best examples I've seen retain extremely fine details like the
hairs on a spider's abdomen. They seem to just use fine silver,
I'm sure 24k would work as well.

I was going to post on this subject, but I thought it unfair,
because I didn’t make the original either. I have cast many insects
and indeed I can get fine hairs with normal sterling silver and
satincast 20. I just wind the caster a turn more and cast a 700C.
Works for me.

Check out
http://www.meevis.com/art5b.htm
http://www.meevis.com/art6b.htm

Cheers, Hans

93 
If the cheapest possible price would be the only objective,
everybody would be still driving model "T", wearing the same
clothes, and gourmet restaurants would not exist at all.

This wasn’t about doing it cheaply. It’s about choosing the most
difficult option without gaining a tangible benefit. To use your
restaurant analogy, it would be like going to two very fine
restaurants and ordering the same meal. One chef prepares it
beautifully with the freshest ingredients available and charges say
$80. The other Chef prepares an identical meal except he charges you
$800 because he flew across the country himself to get the same
fresh ingredients and charged you for his flight…

Mark

94 
I was going to post on this subject, but I thought it unfair,
because I didn't make the original either. I have cast many
insects and indeed I can get fine hairs with normal sterling silver
and satincast 20. I just wind the caster a turn more and cast a
700C. Works for me.

This is a classical example of “red herring”. Having fine hair
imprints, or fingerprints on castings has nothing to do with fine
details. Even the most primitive form of gravity casting can
reproduce these.

Casting suffers from lack of details due to shrinkage, and there is
nothing that can be done about it. Hot metal occupies larger volume
than cold, so when casting solidifies, it pulls away from mold walls.

A finger print, or insect abdomen not only will be reproduced in
casting, but probably would be even sharper. It is the same effect
like zooming out in digital imagines. When we talk about fine
details, we talk about sharp edges. These cannot be reproduce in
casting, for 2 primary reasons. One is all liquids have surface
tension, so because of it, a sharp edge becomes rounded. This is
further exacerbated by shrinkage. Shrinkage having an effect of more
rounding been introduces, so if we try to cast square wire, it will
be obvious, but with round wire it is barely noticeable.

Leonid Surpin

95 
This is a classical example of "red herring". Having fine hair
imprints, or fingerprints on castings has nothing to do with fine
details. Even the most primitive form of gravity casting can
reproduce these.

Casting suffers from lack of details due to shrinkage, and there is
nothing that can be done about it. Hot metal occupies larger volume
than cold, so when casting solidifies, it pulls away from mold
walls.

A finger print, or insect abdomen not only will be reproduced in
casting, but probably would be even sharper. It is the same effect
like zooming out in digital imagines. When we talk about fine
details, we talk about sharp edges. These cannot be reproduce in
casting, for 2 primary reasons. One is all liquids have surface
tension, so because of it, a sharp edge becomes rounded. This is
further exacerbated by shrinkage. Shrinkage having an effect of more
rounding been introduces, so if we try to cast square wire, it will
be obvious, but with round wire it is barely noticeable.

96 
This is a classical example of "red herring". Having fine hair
imprints, or fingerprints on castings has nothing to do with fine
details. Even the most primitive form of gravity casting can
reproduce these.

And no doubt there are crafts men that can reproduce fingerprints
and hairs by hand also.

Casting suffers from lack of details due to shrinkage, and there
is nothing that can be done about it. Hot metal occupies larger
volume than cold, so when casting solidifies, it pulls away from
mold walls.

It depends. If you allow for shrinkage, it shouldn’t be a problem.
If the original wax is uniform then there will be uniform shrinkage.
If the wax model is irregular there can be some distortion, but there
are tricks around this problem. I can be as simple as putting other
pieces in the same flask to keep the heat even. Never done this
myself, but an old founder told me some interesting stories.

When we talk about fine details, we talk about sharp edges. These
cannot be reproduce in casting, for 2 primary reasons. One is all
liquids have surface tension, so because of it, a sharp edge
becomes rounded.

That’s very interesting Leonid, but I think the result depends on
the method of casting, the alloy and how much metal is in the feeder.

Even I’ve managed to get sharp edges with simple casting methods
just using delft clay. A professional casting house can do far better
than I. A commercial vacuum casting machine is a pretty impressive
tool (and more expensive than I can afford). There’s a lot of
technology behind these machines, they even control the atmosphere of
the melt, to reduce the problems you’ve outlined.

The casting I mentioned before was a small shield plaque. I took a
wax model into the casting house, and I received a bronze back, all
the details were replicated, even down to the sharp edges of the fine
bubbles in the original wax model. Shrinkage wasn’t really noticeable
because it’s a small piece. I had heated my wax (a gravity pour wax)
a little too much before I poured it into the RTV, so there were a
lot of fine bubbles over the surface of recess of the wax. These were
all replicated in fine detail. When I did a casting of the casting in
delft clay I didn’t replicate the bubbles, and although by edges were
sharp, they were not as sharp as the casting house’s work.

So sharp edges can be done, even in bronze. I do get your point about
surface tension, but it can be worked around, the technology is
available.

Regards Charles

97 
This wasn't about doing it cheaply. It's about choosing the most
difficult option without gaining a tangible benefit.

What is a tangible benefit?

Many years ago, I was given a project to make a pair of earrings.
Gemstones were baroque pearls. Project was very simple. Take wax
impressions for the caps, cast it, and attach posts. The problem
arose in hallmarking. There was no way to stamp it, a strip of metal
was stamped, and soldered in. The name was long, and it has to be a
copyright sign and the year. The strip was longer than the earrings,
so it needed to be curved. I spent 3 hours on the earrings and 2 days
on the strip. Designer wanted it perfect, so I had to redo it over
and over again.

Jewellery is about small things, sometimes practically invisible,
but still very important. The difference between flawless D color
diamond and VVS2 E color, can only be seen in a microscope and only
by a professional, but the price difference is vast. Great deal of
money is paid by people who cannot see the difference at all. Where
is a tangible benefit in that?

Leonid Surpin

98

Leonid,

I understand that you do not have much experience with casting, so I
will try and explain to you once why you are incorrect.

This is a classical example of "red herring". Having fine hair
imprints, or fingerprints on castings has nothing to do with fine
details. Even the most primitive form of gravity casting can
reproduce these.

They ARE the fine details. The hairs are not imprints, The are 3
dimensional forms. There is utterly no way that one can reproduce an
insects fine hair with gravity casting. The hair tubes are far to
thin to allow molten metal to run through them by gravity alone. I
heat the mould to ±700C ( depending on the insect) so as to allow
the metal the maximum time to remain liquid. I super heat the metal
so that is it at it’s most liquid for so as to penetrate the finest
of hairs and crevices. I spin my caster at its maximum strength so
that the metal is forced into the mould at so 50 gravities, I am
told. This gives me the highest rate of success but still remains at
80% at best

Casting suffers from lack of details due to shrinkage, and there is
nothing that can be done about it. Hot metal occupies larger volume
than cold, so when casting solidifies, it pulls away from mold
walls.

That entire statement is incorrect. The detail is set less than half
a second after the metal enters the mold. Definition is enhanced by
shrinkage actually, but the shrinkage would be less than 2% so it is
to all intent irrelevant.

However, this definition would have nothing to do with a micro three
dimensional object, as in the fine hair or the pedipalps of an
insect.

A finger print, or insect abdomen not only will be reproduced in
casting, but probably would be even sharper.

A finger print would be probably moulded in wax, thus inorganic. An
insect body is organic.

An inorganic piece can be vacuumed. An insect body cannot. Vacuuming
the insect destroys the body shape and allows plaster to penetrate
the inside of the body, thus ruining the cast. Thus a few layers of
plaster slurry have to be hand painted on the insect after spruing,
Each layer is allowed to harden before the next layer is painted on.
This ensures that every pore and crevice is filled with plaster and
gives immense detail.

One is all liquids have surface tension, so because of it, a sharp
edge becomes rounded. This is further exacerbated by shrinkage.

On the contrary, a small radius on a corner of an object would be
made smaller by shrinkage, thus visually becoming sharper. Visually,
not proportionally.

If you wish to expand your knowledge of casting a little, go to

I do some organic casting there. Here is a response I wrote many
years ago to a question on Orchid

Leonid, this will be my only response to your post. I have no
intention to get embroiled in the endless arguments you involve
yourself in on this list.

Cheers, Hans
http://www.meevis.com

99 
Casting suffers from lack of details due to shrinkage

and

A finger print, or insect abdomen not only will be reproduced in
casting, but probably would be even sharper.

huh? Sorry, I can’t seem to reconcile those two statements.

so if we try to cast square wire, it will be obvious, but with
round wire it is barely noticeable.

That might be true in the raw casting but I don’t know too many
producers who sell raw castings as finished jewelry (well, one hi end
house comes to mind, semi raw at least). Most often isn’t the casting
just a starting point? Details and contours being refined at the
bench (excluding insects)?

100 
I understand that you do not have much experience with casting, so
I will try and explain to you once why you are incorrect.

You making assumptions, for which you have no basis. Not liking
casting, and not having experience with casting - are two different
things.

Leonid Surpin