Can a cast piece match handmade?

Not liking casting, and not having experience with casting - are
two different things. 

You walk into my shop, applying for a job. You wax poetic about how
good you are at making sheet metal jewelry, the books you’ve read and
the classes you’ve attended, and even show a couple of pieces you’ve
made. You’re really, really cool and on top of the jewelry
world…

But what those words say to me is that you’re just not experienced
enough for the job, and we show you the door with our blessings.
This is professional, real world jewelry. It’s not your house and we
are not fools.

Sometimes when people say words they think show knowlege, they are
actually betraying a lack of it, as in this case.

It depends. If you allow for shrinkage, it shouldn't be a problem.
If the original wax is uniform then there will be uniform
shrinkage. If the wax model is irregular there can be some
distortion, but there are tricks around this problem. I can be as
simple as putting other pieces in the same flask to keep the heat
even. Never done this myself, but an old founder told me some
interesting stories. 

Shrinkage is not uniform, ever, it is dependent on surface area to
cross section relationships along with mold thickness and model
placement in the mold etc.

A paper presented at the Santa Fe Symposium on Jewelry Manufacturing
and Technology by Tyler Teague of JETT Research showed that using a
silicon rubber mold from original model to finished ring there were
the following changes

Id: Model 19.95 mm, Wax 19.88 mm, Casting 19.63 mm, Finished 19.82mm,
Change.65%

Width: Model 4.05 mm, Wax 4.00 mm, Casting 4.12 mm,Finished 3.82
Change 5.68%

Thickness: Model 1.93 mm, Wax 1.98 mm Casting 1.91 mm, Finished 1.72
Change 10.88%

Weight: Model 5.930 gm, Wax n/a, Casting 5.877 gm, Finished 4.907
Change 17.25%

And you can with careful measurement easily see what the results are
in your studio, they may be similar but not exactly the same and
there are many factors that will affect the results, rubber type, wax
temperature and pressure, flask temperature, metal temperature just
to name a few.

Most jewelers just don’t take the time to do these measurements. In
very high tech models there is a lot of work done to counteract this
but it takes a sophisticated computer modeling and still a little
trial and error to get it right for any given model. For jewelry
most times it is not an issue because we do not work to those kinds
of tolerances. But for aerospace or medical devices or other
demanding products a lot of work goes into trying to deal with this.
Leonid is right about sharp edges they will round off in any casting
and there is not a thing you can do about it. Individual jewelers for
the most part don’t bother with these issues because most are not
demanding enough of their castings. In industrial jewelry though a
lot of time and effort goes into accounting for shrinkage to try to
limit the amount of time needed to finish an item as the margins on
mass produced jewelry don’t allow for the time that a typical studio
goldsmith puts into tweaking and finishing a casting. So while you
may feel that your castings are near perfect reproductions if you do
the work to measure them you will find that there are significant
differences in section from model to finished work.

The assertion that one can mold and cast a copy of Leonid’s ring or
any other object and achieve an exact copy is just BS. Can you come
close, and make an item that the majority of jewelry buyers would
see as being the same? Yes, but if you were to measure and examine it
with magnification it would be obvious even to a casual observer
which was the casting and which was the original. Is one better than
the other? That is a judgement that depends totally on what your
criteria are. For simple shapes where access by tools is possible
then you can finish a raw casting that has enough mass in the right
places to be virtually equivalent to the fabricated piece by lots of
filing, sanding, carving etc. But if it is a highly textured or
finely detailed object there is just no way to achieve a similar
piece because you just can’t get the as cast surface finished to the
same quality as the fabricated item.

There are a myriad of examples of fine work in both cast and
fabricated jewelry as well as a lot of crap. So as others have said
make good work and lets quit beating this dead horse.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

This is professional, real world jewelry. It's not your house and
we are not fools. 

Well, John, I think you’ve just defined the curious dichotomy that
generates much of the disagreements on this board. Basic two schools
of thought. And I might observe, sometimes with a bit of disdain
between them.

But that’s OK. Everybody’s in their own place, or looking for it.
And sometimes people feel the need to defend their place. That’s OK
too!

What matters is the client, imho. Somewhere recently there was
mention of the piece that appraised at a lot less than was paid, the
seller’s rationale being he did everything the hard way, and I’ll
assume the appraiser’s position was what it takes to replace the item
at a reasonable cost(reasonable doesn’t automatically mean cheap, it
means reality, and the reality is that someone somewhere can make
that piece the ‘easy way’). The hard way may be fine from the
perspective of someone who wants to do it that way for giggles and it
might even be fine with the buyer if that’s the particular romance
they’re looking for. But…shoot, lost my point… oh yeah…if
we expect to make a living(and granted, that may not always be the
case) the customer calls the shots, ultimately. Even if the customers
don’t know it. Even if the jewelers don’t know it.

While I do indeed make jewelry, what I really make are satisfied
customers who bring me income. Sorry to be so bourgeois but that is
the reality. If I wanted to just please my own self indulgence I’d
just go back to writing poetry. Pay stinks though. I like to eat. A
bad habit I developed. Pass the bernaise please

There are a myriad of examples of fine work in both cast and
fabricated jewelry as well as a lot of crap. So as others have
said make good work and lets quit beating this dead horse.

All that Jim says is true, including the dead horse part. But
education is in order too, I think. I suspect that some are saying
that casting is bad because they think of it as cast, polish, put in
showcase, but that’s not how the world actually works.

Every once in a while somebody here wants to mold “their jewelry”.
Well, you just can’t do that, for the reasons Jim lays out, among
others. You need to make a model, which accounts for the shrinkage
(no, it doesn’t require a computer, in jewelry - aerospace, yes). On
top of that, it needs to be planned. Since you can’t polish and
finish the inside of a ballerina or similar (setting plate suspended
by prongs), plus it’s a real bear to mold, you make it in two parts
and assemble after casting and pre-polish.

Then you get your casting and file, bur or scrape each and every
surface.

You need to remove the outer skin of the casting to get any kind of
polish - you simply cannot sand it, tripoli it, and ship it off. It
takes work. And it just doesn’t matter that the square wire isn’t
precisely crisp because it’s going to get filed that way at the
bench anyway.

The real point is that professional people already know all of this.
The whole process revolves around the properties mentioned -
shrinkage, distortion, finishing issues, and those things are
accounted for at each step.

Yes, if you expect to mold your 24 gauge earrings, throw them in a
tumbler and sell them, you’re going to have nothing but trouble. If
you actually design it as a cast piece, understand the issues and
processes, and treat it as it should be treated, then you’ll have
something. It’s not like it’s news - people are doing it every day.

Shrinkage is not uniform, ever, it is dependent on surface area to
cross section relationships along with mold thickness and model
placement in the mold etc. 

So the point is that if you take this into consideration you can do
amazing things. Honestly I’m not going to tell a founder with 50
years experience that he’s an idiot, not when my experience is so
limited.

A paper presented at the Santa Fe Symposium on Jewelry
Manufacturing and Technology by Tyler Teague of JETT Research
showed that using a silicon rubber mold from original model to
finished ring there were the following changes 

Why would you do that these days? You’d digitise the model or
re-create it in a CAD program, then you can digitally adjust for
shrinkage. You can even print it straight to metal.

Most jewelers just don't take the time to do these measurements. 

I can understand why they don’t, isn’t it about how it looks?

The assertion that one can mold and cast a copy of Leonid's ring
or any other object and achieve an exact copy is just BS. 

Well I’m not going to take a rubber mould either. I’m going to do a
CAD image and get the wax machined, in fact I’m only going to have to
draw one section of the model, and have the computer replicate the
rest with machine precision. My hands wont touch any of the ring, bar
polishing (I know a gem setter, so that shouldn’t be an issue)

There are a myriad of examples of fine work in both cast and
fabricated jewelry as well as a lot of crap. So as others have
said make good work and lets quit beating this dead horse. 

The original comment was a casting would never be as fine or elegant
as a hand made piece (or words to that effect). I don’t think that’s
100% true, but I don’t have a closed mind, and I’m willing to giver
it a try. If I’m proven wrong, then I learn something, if I’m right
then I still learn something.

At the end of the day I want to make the best that I can, by any
means, if technology can help me do that, that’s fine. One of the
means I’m developing is so foreign to anything done in jewellery
manufacture or design, it has never been done before.

It’ll be very interesting to see the reactions when I present the
finished product. Definitely not for people that don’t like
technology, but very cool none the less.

Regards Charles

Why would you do that these days? You'd digitise the model or
re-create it in a CAD program, then you can digitally adjust for
shrinkage. You can even print it straight to metal. 

Why? Time and Cost, of course. Getting a model digitized (unless you
have all the equipment yourself, which is a pricey thing already),
and then grown or milled is a hundred bucks at least. Maybe more. You
might do this for an original model, but if you’re planning to go
into any sort of production, you’d want a good mold, and then you’re
dealing with was molding and injection shrinkage. Silcone rubber
molds may not, themselves, shrink much or at all, depending on the
rubber. But injected wax does, and tends to do it unevenly, even in
the best of molds. Metal molds, with the high injection pressures
and lower wax temps used, minimize this, but then you’re dealing with
more limited possibilities in model geometry and higher mold costs,
plus you need the ability to inject such molds. CAD is a great tool,
but don’t get the idea it’s useable for every model out there.

Oh, and printing direct to metal? I’ve not seen this done in gold or
silver or platinum yet to produce a solid piece of precious metal in
an alloy the same as we’d normally use. Have I missed something?
Given the pace of development, I might have blinked and missed it. If
so, I’d love to learn more…

Well I'm not going to take a rubber mould either. I'm going to do
a CAD image and get the wax machined, in fact I'm only going to
have to draw one section of the model, and have the computer
replicate the rest with machine precision. My hands wont touch any
of the ring, bar polishing (I know a gem setter, so that shouldn't
be an issue) 

Well, CAD/CAM, as I said, is a great tool. But it’s not a duplicate
of the handmade object as regards finish. Even the best of the
milling machines leaves a machined texture on the wax. I happen to
think it’s pretty, and not necessarily something to be removed,
since it’s an intrinsic part of the process with it’s own visual
characteristics that can be exploited. But it’s there, nevertheless,
and when it’s there in deep recesses, it may not be possible to
fully remove it, either in the wax, or later in the metal. With a
handmade piece, you can prefinish those areas before assembly. To do
that with CAD means milling the piece in all the same preassembled
sections, which kind of defeats a good deal of the whole point. As
well, you say you’re going to get this model milled. I beg to
differ. Take a good look at Leonids ring. It has recesses and
interior geometry that no mill can reach and duplicate. You’ll
instead have to use one of the technologies that grows the wax, not
mills it. And these models have an even more pronounced texture to
them than the milled ones. Again, i happen to think it can be a
feature, not a flaw. But if you’re trying to duplicate handmade, then
it’s an obsticle. Your CAD/CAM made model will produce an attractive
piece, to be sure. But there WILL be visible differences in this
case. The customer might not notice, but any jeweler will see them.
No doubt, future development in the field will further refine surface
finishes, but so far, I’ve not seen a technology that can quite
achieve a finish with no “digital” or “stair-step” effect directly
on the wax model. The mills can get close on some shapes, but not, at
least from what I’ve seen, yet on complex curves and shapes.

Cheers
Peter Rowe

I think you've just defined the curious dichotomy that generates
much of the disagreements on this board. Basic two schools of
thought. And I might observe, sometimes with a bit of disdain
between them. 

I think, I want to try my hand at these definitions as well.

One school, I would define as “a group of gold and gemstones
merchants, who know the price of everything and the value of
nothing”. The other group I simply call GOLDSMITHS.

Leonid Surpin

For a really good visual of the difference in cast vs hand carved/
wrought work go to the following web pages. This work is by Jim
Kelso, probably one of the finest metal carvers in the world. This
first page shows his one of a kind jewelry pieces

then go to invoqe this work is
cast and as Jim says “meticulously hand finished” they are very good
pieces but I think you will be able to easily see the difference.
There is a crispness of line and delicacy of surface texture that
cannot be achieved except by direct contact of metal tool on metal.
While you could cast rough blanks and apply the same techniques to a
degree even then the cast metal would have issues like porosity that
would mar the exquisite finish and patina that Jim achieves in his
wrought carved work.

While you are there look at all his work, it is just marvelous.

Also check out Tom Herman’s work at http://www.sevenfingers.com

here again Tom may start with a cast blank on some pieces (I am not
certain on he does but it is possible) or may fabricate the rough
form but the carving and chasing is a only possible by direct contact
of metal tool against metal object. There is just no other way to do
it. You can’t cast it you can’t CAD smith it and RP it you have to
pay the dues and spend the time to get the skills.

Jim

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Basic two schools of thought. And I might observe, sometimes with a
bit of disdain between them.

Thank you Neil (The Peacemaker) I want to stress that I have no
disdain for anyone who is struggling/learning/starting out. Jo-Ann
and I are both very involved in education and the whole scene around
here. I don’t just do Orchid, I do a great deal of face-to-face
mentoring, too. And guest visits to schools and classes. I guess
sometimes I might come across as more cantankerous than I actually
am - the nature of forums and sound bites.

Question for you both,

If a ring has a handmade basket/ setting/ prongs is a cast ring of
the same size / weight etc. worth more or less? Considering the
stone(s) to be virtually the same in grade at least. As a
professional I would hazard a guess the handmade setting is worth the
premium for the time involved.

So the point is that if you take this into consideration you can
do amazing things. Honestly I'm not going to tell a founder with 50
years experience that he's an idiot, not when my experience is so
limited. 

If he is a traditional founder his idea of accurate reproduction is
very different than a precision investment caster. But even then
even with the the most skilled pattern makers it is still a trial and
error effort. There has been a lot of work done in trying to use
computers to do the finite element analysis necessary to calculate
the corrections and if you have the money you can lease a copy of
such software for about $50,000 a year (they don’t sell it)

Why would you do that these days? You'd digitise the model or
re-create it in a CAD program, then you can digitally adjust for
shrinkage. You can even print it straight to metal. 

You are showing your lack of experience here. With the exception of
CNC milling/turning (which cannot produce a large number of models
due to undercuts) of wax models the rapid prototyping systems produce
lousy surface finishes that require a boat load of work to make into
acceptable finished jewelry.So you can CAD smith a beautiful piece
but the ROP tools will not reproduce it very well. They are a nice
tool to have in the kit and one that I use regularly for many years
now but they still have a long way to go before they will match the
hype. And forget about the direct to metal tools they produce even
worse surfaces.

Well I'm not going to take a rubber mould either. I'm going to do
a CAD image and get the wax machined, in fact I'm only going to have
to draw one section of the model, and have the computer replicate
the rest with machine precision. My hands wont touch any of the
ring, bar polishing (I know a gem setter, so that shouldn't be an
issue) 

I want to see the tool that can cut that ring, again you need to get
some experience with these tools.

The original comment was a casting would never be as fine or
elegant as a hand made piece (or words to that effect). I don't
think that's 100% true, but I don't have a closed mind, and I'm
willing to giver it a try. If I'm proven wrong, then I learn
something, if I'm right then I still learn something. 
At the end of the day I want to make the best that I can, by any
means, if technology can help me do that, that's fine. One of the
means I'm developing is so foreign to anything done in jewellery
manufacture or design, it has never been done before. 
It'll be very interesting to see the reactions when I present the
finished product. Definitely not for people that don't like
technology, but very cool none the less. 

I will be interested to see it

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

All that Jim says is true, including the dead horse part. But
education is in order too, I think. I suspect that some are saying
that casting is bad because they think of it as cast, polish, put
in showcase, but that's not how the world actually works. 

Unfortunately way too many pieces of jewelry are done exactly like
that. If all the cast work followed the processes in rest of your
post we would not be having this conversation.

Regards,

Jim

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

But if you're trying to duplicate handmade, then it's an obstacle.
Your CAD/CAM made model will produce an attractive piece, to be
sure. But there WILL be visible differences in this case. The
customer might not notice, but any jeweler will see them. 

It’s interesting to watch Charles getting his project up and running

  • hope fully he can work it out. It’s interesting that Peter and Jim
    especially have helped steer him in a certain direction. And Charles,
    keep at it, don’t let the following words put you off.

Because Charles is doing exactly what people do wrong that is the
topic of this thread, trying to make a fabrication piece in wax.
Leonid’s ring is a fish-tail setting - a classic syle that’s been
made for a century or so.

I have it in a line I inherited, though they are not eternity rings,
just 5-7 stones. There are many ways to do it, and many styles and
variations. It’s actually pretty easy to make, in principle. I have
made Leonid’s ring many times in wax, many times in gold (it’s a
classic). The thing is, it’s not Leonid’s ring, it’s MY ring, made
my way. It’s just a form, how it’s made and who makes it will just
determine the product’s look and properties.

But Jim pointed to a couple of websites today that illustrate the
difference between hand work and cast work. I personally think the
production line ~could~ easily be brought up to the spec of the
special work, it’s just not because it’s production work and has
limited time/budget. Which is beside the point…

“I can make that piece in wax, just because I need to prove
something” and also the other side of the coin are things college
students with too much time on their hands do. The trick is to know
the best way to do ANYTHING.

I just saw that one poster on this thread recently went out of
business … Part of that knowlege is money, budget, sales,
realistic expectations, marketing, mass production, getting good
product to the people at a good price, time and motion, etc. and
etc. and etc. One way is not better or worse, it’s just different.
Sometimes it’s supposed to be machine crisp, sometimes it’s supposed
to look like a meadow muffin - organic and random.

The rest is just fairy dust…

But Jim pointed to a couple of websites today that illustrate the
difference between hand work and cast work. I personally think the
production line ~could~ easily be brought up to the spec of the
special work, it's just not because it's production work and has
limited time/budget. Which is beside the point.... 

Up to a point Jim Kelso’s production work could be chased and carved
following casting to a higher level of detail but eventually you
would reach a time where the cost of the hand work would take it to
the point where you would be better off just starting from fabricated
material. Also after fifty to a hundred hours or so a pit or porous
area in the cast blank would render it pointless to continue so one
just would not try to do that level work with a cast blank.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

It’s the person behind the cast or fabricated piece.

One would be foolish to accept a blanket statement such as cast vs
handmade.

Jim pointed out in another post the work of Jim Kelso who does one-
offs and multiples.

I would say that Jim Kelso’s multiples are better than the majority
of others’ one-offs.

kpk

As a professional I would hazard a guess the handmade setting is
worth the premium for the time involved. 

Round and round she goes, and where she stops, nobody knows…

Yes, Kent, I’d agree and probably most would. Sitting there
hand-fabricating basket set rings on a shank with any dimension,
over and over again, is a fool’s errand, though. Again, it boils
down to business - making a special order ring because it needs to
be made is what keeps me in business.

Buying the ring that the cusomer wants from Stuller, or casting it
work is how you stay in business.

The nonsensical portion of this whole discussion is that somehow
there’s an argument. You cast the casting work and you fabricate the
fabrication work, like a smart person, go home, drink scotch. Jim
pointed to a great example today - it’s not better, it’s just
different.

“Work your fingers to the bone, whaddya get? Bony fingers, bony
fingers…” Work smarter…

One school, I would define as "a group of gold and gemstones
merchants, who know the price of everything and the value of
nothing". The other group I simply call GOLDSMITHS. 

If I recall John’s post correctly, he was referring to working
goldsmiths such as himself, earning a living from his craft, vs those
of us who are at home, dabbling with the craft. And if I also recall
his post correctly Leonid, he was putting you in the latter category,
as you have said in the past that you don’t need to earn your living
from what you do. Therefore the whole casting vs handmade argument
has a lot to do with the economics of both methods, and which one is
viable for sustaining an income.

Helen
UK

One school, I would define as "a group of gold and gemstones
merchants, who know the price of everything and the value of
nothing". The other group I simply call GOLDSMITHS. 

Every time an acquaintance passes me a broken tin broach or asks me
to make up a piece from a sketch they’ve done on the back of a
napkin I remind them that I’m a goldsmith, not a jeweler. Then I
tell them the difference between a bench jeweler, a jobbing jeweler
and retail jeweler.

Then I tell them that I charge $75 an hour for repairs, take the
piece and get a colleague to do it - yes I’m that bad at repairs -
and that slow!

I would hazard a guess the handmade setting is worth the premium
for the time involved. 

The handmade would certainly cost more. But cost and worth are not
the same thing. If it was we could all make our work more valuable by
making everything the hard way.

I would say that the handmade setting is worth a premium because it
is made of wrought rather than cast metal. Because of that it has
better density and grain structure. But in truth cast might be good
enough. So the difference might not really be worth paying for. A
good casting is often better than a sloppy fabrication.

Stephen Walker

There has been a lot of work done in trying to use computers to do
the finite element analysis necessary to calculate the corrections
and if you have the money you can lease a copy of such software for
about $50,000 a year (they don't sell it) 

Huge and small pieces, statuary you name it he did it. $50,000…
nah I’ll pass, I’ll just look for the oldest founder I can, a cup of
tea and a chat is far cheaper option :smiley:

You are showing your lack of experience here. 

Absolutely correct, hence the exercise :slight_smile:

I want to see the tool that can cut that ring, again you need to
get some experience with these tools. 

I’ve seen some pretty good results, that should give a similar
finish to Leonid’s posted image. Again this is the point of the
exercise.

I’ll clarify where I’m coming from :- I’m not really saying yes or
no, I’m saying maybe.

The first step for me is to construct a digital model that meets the
requirements of the exercise. Leonid has to tell me if I’ve
digitally replicated the ring or not, and if there needs to be any
adjustments to the model. I should be able to pass this step.

The next step is to get a wax machined… I know a couple of places
that push the envelope, fingers crossed that a 4 axis machine will be
able to do the lot. If the piece cannot be machined the exercise will
be a failure. The surface texture must also pass my level of anality
(it’s not a word). It has to be at least the level of the image
provided. If not the exercise will again be a failure.

I will be interested to see it 

I think it could do well, the idea is so different, and I’m excited
about it (lol, my wife’s reading over my shoulder and is looking at
me funny :smiley: ).

Regards Charles