Can a cast piece match handmade?

watching a talented expert like Leonid make a sophisticated
eternity ring and set it all by hand is something everyone should
get a chance to see. 

I enjoyed reading your post Jay. It was lovely to see one highly
respected goldsmith appreciating the work of another. I too am
interested to purchase Leonid’s DVD’s, as I feel he has a lot to
offer people like myself who are learning the ropes of jewellery
making, especially as I too love hand fabrication and want to learn
all that I can.

Helen
UK

I really want to try my best, so if you have an image available
that would be helpful. 

I uploaded very large image on ganoksin ftp server

it is 10 X 11 inches. It is big enough to downsize it to any size
that you need and preserve all the details. One thing to keep in
mind. The image is an export from video footage which is anamorphic.
Because jpg uses square pixel, the ring is not round. Set your
software for 16 x 9 anamorphic display, or you can use horizontal
scaling of 1.33.

Leonid Surpin

Faberge Eggs are mostly made from parts, which were cast. Nobody
is going to argue that they are not hand made pieces, but it is
funny to contemplate that in USA, one would be breaking FTC rules
by calling Faberge Eggs handmade. 

Yes this is the problem with trying to make a legal definition for
handmade.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Which way do you find, is most cost effective? 

The XPM process is more cost effective if the volume of material
being produced is great enough.

Do you find the manufacturing process "too" perfect? 

We have control over that issue so we can make “perfect”
reproductions or provide some “randomness”

Jim

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Hi John,

Haven't wanted to be personal, but yes, Bathsheba's sculptures are
wonderful, if a little mechanical for my tastes. And Greg's work
isn't that difficult to fabricate, no. I'd put out someone who we
do contract casting for: http://www.glenndizon.com/ as a better
example. Again, what does "Match" mean? Glenn's designs would be
easy to fabricate in essence - "A bezel with a channel on the side"
but that's not the work. It COULD be fabricated to the same weight,
but it would be a ridiculous mental exercise. It's a line that's
based on the properties of wax and casting - more massive, with
flowing lines. Casting is the ~right~ way to do it. 

I looked at Glenn’s website and he mentioned that he uses 3 times the
weight of the finished piece to cast with.

I was curious, as I cast and have good results with 13.6 times the
weight of the wax, and I add 10% more for the button. Since I do not
have problems with porosity the way I am doing it, why would Glenn
use so much extra metal?

At one time, I cast 500 to 1000 sterling pieces a week for 12 years,
for a line and for 5 or 6 jewelry artists. I had virtually no
returned pieces. I have also done waxes and casting for my retail
customers, using their old gold for sentimental reasons without
significant problems over the last 20 years.

I would always use enough metal and flux and I have been able to=

keep the porosity in the sprue. Just curious. I always enjoy your
point of view in your posts on Orchid.

Richard Hart G.G.
Denver, Co. 80210

Anyone on Orchid than can create by hand something that matches my
Elephant head pendant 

Greg, I’ll let Peter answer your question to him, if he chooses.
Since I posted something today, I’ll say something, too, though.
Your elk pendant is made out of wax sheet, and it’s simple enough to
do the same thing out of metal sheet. Your elephant head COULD be
made out of straight metal (repousse, but that’s light weight,
again), but IMO it’s a proper casting job - again, it’s not school,
it’s business.

I was going to post to you in particular today, anyway, because I
feel bad that people have singled you out in some way. Much of your
work ~could~ be fabricated, yes, but it also wouldn’t be the same
work, even if you did it yourself. The medium determines the result,
and the fact that your work is wax gives it a quality that ALSO is
difficult to gain by fabrication processes - that’s why it’s called
art… That’s also why the whole either/or thing is ultimately just
pretty silly.

Anyone on Orchid than can create by hand something that matches my
Elephant head pendant 

Well, I think someone on a massively manic mission could produce a
very similar piece, carving directly in the metal. The question is
why. Waste would be astronomical, time would be incredible. In the
end the performance of both pieces would be much the same, its hangs
on a chain with little consequence. If said manic person had the
market it could be done more efficiently by striking, but first you
gotta make a two piece die and have the facilities for striking. It
would be a denser material so if it were a gent’s ring striking
would be an advantage. Thing is do we qualify die striking as hand
fabrication(the die would be hand cut) or should we toss in all
factory manufacturing processes into the basic question? Could
chase/repousse’ it, but it would be lightweight, OK for a pendant
but maybe no so for a ring.

I mentioned previously purpose and parameters. In addition to ‘what’s
it supposed to look like?’ its good to also ask ‘what’s it gotta
DO?’. And how much will it cost and how motivated is the customer?
Many years ago I was called on to redo a failed 18K cast baguette
barrel ring made in Switzerland. The original looked great but was
notorious for loosing diamonds. At something like 1,000 bucks a pop
they got frustrated to the point of paying us five grand for a
bulletproof mounting in 18K/Pt. Fabbing that ring was an ordeal but
it subsequently never lost a stone, those puppies were locked in. It
wasn’t just a cast vs fab thing, it also involved setting technique.
But if I was going to be on the hook for it I was going to END the
problem. So, the parameters were there for overkill. They aren’t
always.

I don’t believe there is a blanket ‘superior method’. There is
however what’s appropriate for the parameters. The problems arise
when the wrong choice is made or the properties of that method are
not fully considered.

I have to go fab a 5CT three stone ring now and my fingers are
finally warmed up from all the typing. so maybe my wordiness was not
in vain after all. Cold here today, New England…bah.

Hello Greg!

Thank you for taking the time to look at my website. When you are
finished creating an Elk Head pendant or one of my Mountain Scene
rings by hand with the detail in it that matches mine I would love
to see a photo of your finished piece. 
Maybe I have been doing this wrong all these years and would like
to be taught how to do it differently by you. 

I can imagine you are a bit upset to this, but this is not my fault.
Please believe me and the others who told you, that the pieces could
be done by hand. It never was in my mind to offend you.

If you like to see what i am doing the hole day, please follow the
link below:

http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/368/

It is an example only, i know, but it shows, how i work. The serial
isn’t finished (four parts are available) yet, i hope i will manage
it in a few weeks. If you still want me to build a piece of yours,
send me a picture (please a better one with more details) and i will
do it.

Regards, Mario.
http://goldschmiede-bender.de

The XPM process is more cost effective if the volume of material
being produced is great enough. We have control over that issue so
we can make "perfect" reproductions or provide some "randomness" 

That’s good to know. Once again machines can beat the pants off a
manual process :frowning:

The fact that you can add in imperfection, is handy.

I do enjoy making the pattern welded metals, and I think I will
enjoy Mokume for the same reason.

A couple more questions, if I may. Have you done destructive testing
on both to see if one makes a more durable item?

An interesting thing I’ve noticed when I make a pattern welded
knife, I have full control over the hardness of the edge. I do find
that due to the micro fissures in the process, a pattern welded edge
will be serrated, if the customer requests an edge that can take a
professional honing, I will forge weld on a high carbon steel cutting
edge. Do you notice texture on the surfaces of the machine
manufactured Mokume Gane?

Regards Charles

I uploaded very large image on ganoksin ftp server
http://www.ganoksin.com/ftp/eternity10x.jpg 

Thank you Sir, I appreciate that. I should be able to get the
details from the image.

I think I can draft one section and rail extrude the rest. For those
that are scratching their heads, draft one section and let the
computer make the repeating details.

I’ll send the image when I’ve drafted it for your inspection.

At the end of the day I’ll be able to say definitely to people
what’s currently possible with technology. If that means that I fail
at the exercise, I’ll still learn something.

Regards Charles

Anyone on Orchid than can create by hand something that matches my
Elephant head pendant (as an example) I would love to see it and
have you teach me how it is done. 

The elephant head, because of it’s depth of relief, is perhaps the
toughest of your pieces on your site to make by hand, but certainly
not impossible.

Yes I know a sculptured piece can be made using daps, stakes.
gravers, chisels etc it would have a different look than this
example but again if I can learn from you I am very open minded
and would appreciate being educated. 

The statement that it would have a different look, is your problem.
It doesn’t need to. Suppose you were carving this from hard carving
wax (the way most of us might do it). Leaving aside your torch for
melting and wax pens for the same, could you carve this in wax? You
don’t need me to show you some new magic methods or techniques. No
doubt you already have the needed skills, or could easily learn them.
Just standard methods. But more patience than working in wax is
needed, and perhaps a more studied methodical approach to the
sequence of steps you take.

Almost the same types of tools, or equivalents, would work in metal.
Slower, but they work. You’d use the same methods after carving to
finish and polish the piece, so if you get the carving in metal
pretty close, after some work with rubber wheels and brushes and
buffs, you’d be there.

Now, you’d probably not want to start with a solid cube of metal and
carve it all away. So if I were making this, I’d start with fairly
thick flat sheet cut to the outlines, and dapped/repoused/chased a
bit to get most of the contours of the ears and back areas roughed
in. Then dap up a domed form from heavy sheet, and distort it till
you’ve got the rough contours of the head, minus trunk. Go ahead, be
brutal. Crunch with pliers and hammers as needed, since you’ve made
it thick enough, and slightly oversize, to allow refining and carving
the surface. Solder it on. Heavy wire can be added if needed to make
a trunk. Unlike normal fabrication, where you’re doing clean
soldering and retaining the form of the sheet or wire, in this case
you’re just building up the form which you can then model and carve
into. As needed, you can always go and add a bit more sheet or wire
or grains or whatever, to build up details. Always use a hard
solder, fit parts reasonably well, and it blends in, and doesn’t
remelt when you add more metal if you need to. I know this sounds
daunting, but it really isn’t. Just needs patience and taking it one
step at a time. If you look at the whole finished form and wonder how
to get there, it can be difficult to visualize. But break it down
into parts, volumes, planes, etc, and take them one step at a time.
Like I said, if you can carve it in wax, you can carve it in metal
too. It’s a bit more difficult to match what you do with heat,
melting/blending the wax, but you can do this in metal with rubber
wheels, brushes, polishing, etc. Or, to a degree, if you’ve got good
torch control, some fusing too.

As I said in my prior post, you can get cast items that end up being
very difficult to impossible to really make any other way, but they
need much more complexity of form than the nice things you have on
your site. Your elephant head is likely the hardest. But those
leaf/branch forms, would be really easy. Others are in between.

Now, I won’t argue with you as to whether casting is the best way to
produce these. From an economic and time standpoint, it certainly is,
and if I were making these for a line, I’d be casting them too. But
for somewhat similar items I’ve made over the years that were to be
cast, more than once I’ve found the best way to get the most detailed
and accurate model from which the mold is made, is to hand make the
original, in metal, not wax. The extra time it takes to form and
detail the metal makes you work more carefully, and the extra
strength of the metal lets you get more accuracy too, at least more
accuracy than many wax carvers are capable of (yes, I know some
amazing wax carvers who don’t fit this statement).

By the way, if you want to be really efficient in making metal
models for your molds, try pewter. It’s softness lets you work
faster, it fuses/welds beautifully, holds detail just as well as any
harder metal, yet still can be worked by some of the methods you
might even use with wax. Not as good if you’re making models of
things that have lots of thin wires or the like, but for more solid
volumetric forms, it’s wonderful. Never work hardens (actually gets
softer the more you work it) and it’s really cheap. Just don’t
contaminate your precious metal area or tools with it.

For a fine, easily found on the web, example of what I’m talking
about, go find work by John Paul Miller. He’s best known of course
for his use of granulation and enamel to decorate his wonderful
pieces. But before that, all those organic flowing wonderful animal
forms of his, were totally fabricated. Nothing cast. In fact, no
solder even, just fused. Yes, it looks different from your work, but
that’s not the point. If you can hand carve/make it in wax, there
will usually be ways you can work out to hand make it in metal too.
Both metal and wax are plastic moldable, carvable, joinable
materials. While the tools and methods of each may differ, it’s only
to a degree. All work according to the same underlying principals.
And while wax is a wonderful medium of amazing possibility, I’d have
to say there are more things I can make in metal that I’d have a
tough time doing in wax, than the other way around.

I’m sure Leonid, when he made his similar statement, had much the
same thoughts. I’m also sure that were he to make a copy of one of
your pieces, no doubt he’d have his own methods and sequences and
tools to do it. Many others doing the same would work out their own
unique methods. But underneath all, are the same basic principals
with which our tools work, and the basic operations we can use to
shape, cut, bend, carve, etc, the materials we’re working with, be
they metal, wax, wood, stone, etc.

Whether one way or the other is quicker, or easier, or more
efficient, or more economically viable, of course, are different
questions, and again, each worker may have different preferences and
answers.

Cheers
Peter

Cast vs handmade, this has been interesting. Just a thought for what
it is worth. I have been working on a series of rings lately. I find
I really love working on rings. With each design I start with stock
material. This is cut, bent, shaped, carved, ground, soldered,
polished, cleaned and set. Sometimes while working I will see
something might be better on the left or the stone turned at an
angle. All in the process of creating a single design. Many times
these will end up on my wife’s fingers, or one of the in-laws or
out-laws. The joy of family. Some of these take hours to finish,
others days. Some I set aside for a time to figure out how toget the
look from my minds eye to finished product. Now lets say the rare (in
my case very, very, rare) store buyer come along and falls in love
with some of your work. Dreams do come true sometimes. This buyer
says I want these three in my stores. I have 15 stores.

I want three of each in size X, Y & Z. I want them in 90 days and
will pay this for them. If I want this order I would half to look at
casting to meet their needs. And if they happen to sell well any
future orders. That of coarse assuming I can get it off my wife’s
finger. The joy of mass production. Of coarse instead of having a
one of a kind work of art and beauty that only one person in the
world will wear you have many people with the same ring. Money
changes allot of things in ones life. Right now I am ina place in my
life where I can consentrate on one of kind. If I needed a= new high
dollar machine or more gold at its very high prices I may very= well
have to look at casting duplicates.

Rick McC. Just my thoughts.

The argument of cast vs. fabrication comes up every now and then and
it wastes a lot of our creative time arguing about it.

Sure anything can be fabricated out of pieces of precious metal. All
it takes is a lot of grinding, hammering, filing, sanding and a big
bunch of time. While someone is fabricating a large detailed design
a wax carver can create many waxes, cast them and have them finished.

Except for wedding bands, most jewelry is not worn 24/7. Art jewelry
is worn on special occasions. The chances of a cast ring or pendant
being destroyed in a life time is extremely rare.

I learned early that one should not create jewelry in wax if the
design could be done in fabrication.

Working in wax allows one to create difficult designs rapidly with
the ability to modify the design without totally recreating it.

Casting also allows you to inexpensively reproduce a design using
rubber molds. This allows an artist to make a living without having
well healed patrons who are willing to pay big bucks for a piece
that takes hours to create…

The biggest advantage of creating in wax is the ability to create
textures that would be very difficult if not impossible to create by
fabrication.

See my Orchid blog to see some of the textures one can obtain in
wax.

http://leessilver.ganoksin.com/blogs/2009/10/08/203/

In the past heavy fire scale on cast pieces has been a major problem.
The sterling silver casting process is greatly improved with my anti
fire scale vacuum casting process.

We all are trying to create art that we like and hopefully customers
like. Use whatever process fits you creative talent.

Mario, thank you sooooo much for your video. As a new designer to
fabrication, I learned so much just from watching you fabricate the
ribs. I can’t wait to see the rest.

Michele
MikiCat Designs

I looked at Glenn's website and he mentioned that he uses 3 times
the weight of the finished piece to cast with. I was curious, 

Thanks, Richard - I’m going to double up this post…

There’s not much doubt that all of Glenn’s pieces you see were cast
by us -we’ve been doing it for some 20 years, now. I agree with
Richard that casting needs sprues and buttons, but I’ve also cast
successfully with minimal amounts, at times, too. But in Glenn’s case
he makes the wax, weighs it and calculates and then sends us the wax
and a container of metal to be used. And each piece is to be cast in
it’s own flask, always. I don’t want to use words like picky or
paranoid about his waxes being perfectly cast, because he’s a real
nice guy and a real normal guy, but that’s how he wants it and that’s
how we do it. IOW, it’s his practice, not ours.

Well, I think someone on a massively manic mission could produce a
very similar piece, carving directly in the metal. The question is
why. 

Neil has the bottom line pegged. Yes, you CAN turn lead into gold -
get a nuclear reactor and a team of physicists and a $10 million
budget and in a few days you’ll get a couple of grams of gold. Or
you can take your lead to the lead-buying store and sell it, and
take that money to the gold-selling store and buy some.

The question of “Can you fabricate anything that can be cast, and
vice-versa?” is obvious - of course you can. You can also grow your
own wheat and mill it to bake your own bread every day. The only
question that really means anything is, “Should you?” Knowing what is
best cast and what is best fabricated is what makes a jeweler a
jeweler.

Okay. Everything is possible in every which way. We all make the best
jewelry we can using whatever techniques we are best at. In my
personal work, I prefer fabrication, not because it’s “better”, but
because I enjoy the process, and my visions are best realized that
way. For my commercia l"custom" work, most of the time wax carving is
the way to go. Most of mycustomers like to see a wax model before
they commit $$$ to a project.

BK (back in AK)

I forgot to mention that I have a great advantage in working out of
my home. I can sit in my living room, in my recliner with a box in
my lap to catch wax shavings as I carve waxes. That way I am together
with my wife as we TV. Even my cats get a chance to assist in my
carvings.

One disadvantage of casting is the amount of sprues that must be
ground away from the project.

Check out for the following to see some of the textures would be
very difficult to impossible to create in fabrication:

http://leessilver.ganoksin.com/blogs/2010/04/29/

Lee, great post. Cynthia, my wife and the “retired jeweler” in this
family, is/was going a bit nutz when I was reading some of the posts
on this thread. Casting vs fabrication, ah, ah, ah!!! It’s too bad
that some think that they and or their techniques are better or truer
than someone operating/doing things a bit differently. There are some
who feel that if you didn’t smelt the metal yourself, you are not
truly doing pure work. I farmed for 25 years and I actually had a few
folks state that I wasn’t a “true” farmer as I was planting seeds. Oh
my!!! So where it starts and stops varies with different folks, but
golly, a line sort of need to be drawn as to where you are a farmer,
jeweler, a candle stick maker, a baker or what ever. Casting is just
one area of jewelry making, just as fabrication is. HOWEVER, there
are levels of fabrication or casting that, for differing reasons for
different folks, can make either “not real, fine art”. Mass produced
items of either method potentially become less “artful” with higher
production levels. One can go buy a loaf of artisan bread, actually
rolled and formed by a person and almost positively get a loaf of
bread that is unique compared to any “manufactured” loaf of bread.
Ditto with almost ANYTHING a person can acquire, anything. Your
house, your car, your shoes and on and on…

So cast vs fabricated… one more “true” or artful
than the other, To me, it just depends on: the quality,
is it basically/somewhat “unique”, possibly I had some say in it’s
overall design, etc. For a poorer person, the idea of a “custom"
piece of “fine” jewelry is unthinkable, so a horseshoe nail bent
into a ring by their true love, is for them art. For another it is
"junk”. So very much of anything is really in the eye of the
beholder, regardless what “you” think it is.

Wow, I don’t really know where or why all that came up from my old
brain, but it did, and if you have read this far, you probably have
sympathy for me or my brain or both or neither. It’s your choice/
decision.

This is a great list, a great group and super resource. Sometimes we
humans and maybe especially artists, need to get our heads up out of
our work and think, talk, discuss stuff like this.

John Dach

John (JoAnn too!!!) GREAT closing line. Why some folks like to try
to make other folks efforts less than, is beyond me. I read your
post to Cynthia and she was very happy to hear it was from you
(guys). Hope all is well with you, yours and everyone else on this
list. Thanks again for being here.

John Dach

Working in wax allows one to create difficult designs rapidly with
the ability to modify the design without totally recreating it. 

Lee has a healthy attitude, I think…

I think the bottom line is ignorance (Def: a lack of knowlege). I
already mentioned Hockney’s revelation about using projectors for
transfers. Rembrant was famous for having his studio artists paint
the canvas, and then just doing the eyes and the signature himself.
Dali is one of the biggest for going into lithography big time.
10,000 lithos @ $2000 is 20 million dollars, and it’s a lot easier
to find that many people with 2 grand to spend than to find one with
the whole amount that wants THAT painting. Business 101. Instead of
spending 100 hours to make that elephant head, and then doing it
again and again, mold that sucker and make some money on it. It’s how
the business of art is done, once you lose that starry-eyed stuff you
learned in art school.