Why is platinum popular?

Jewelry Discussion
61 
In order for "black color to bleed into diamond" a ray of black
color must enter a diamond. Since ray of black color cannot exist,
therefore no "bleeding" can take place.

What you say is only partially true. Yes, you’re right that no black
rays of light exist. However, take a diamond in a new, tarnish free
setting, with mirror bright surfaces. Many diamonds are not ideal
cut and so may leak some light out of the pavilion facets. These rays
will be reflected back by the mirrored surfaces of the setting.
Alternatively, take a tarnished setting where the metal in contact
with the pavilion has turned black. Any light rays leaking from the
pavilion will be absorbed by the black colour. Black absorbs light
rays rather than reflecting them. Therefore light is lost and the
diamond WILL look darker just as Daniel and others have said.

therefore setting cannot have any influence on well cut diamond.

The majority of diamonds are not well cut and as Daniel has pointed
out, this particular part of this thread came about by someone
mentioning old mine cut or rose cut diamonds which are far from ideal
or well cut diamonds. In theory, in a perfectly cut round brilliant
diamond, all light entering through the table of the diamond will be
reflected/refracted around inside the stone and will emerge back out
of the table to the viewer’s eye and in such a case the setting
shouldn’t make any difference, but those diamonds are very few and
far between. Even then, there are diamond “experts” who say that
yellow gold settings will give a colourless diamond a yellow cast,
while others say it shouldn’t affect it. There’s probably been lots
of research done on such things.

Helen
UK

62 
But if you're an independent craftsperson and you keep making
$50-100 stuff, there's only so much you can do. Think about new
financial horizons. New price points. New ideas. Try the $500
market. Then the grandish. Push the envelope. Push yourself.

That is exactly why I said I want to move towards working in gold,
when responding to the “copper” thread. I could bust my butt
churning out sterling silver jewellery forever more and making
peanuts, money- wise. Or I could work hard and elevate the quality of
my work to more high end, creating with gold and more precious gems
than I use currently. I may well then be able to make some sort of
living out of what I’m doing. It’s a no-brainer for me as that’s
where the money is. I’m a determined person. If I put my mind to do
something, I’ll not rest until I’ve achieved it.

Currently, I’m working in sterling silver and people don’t really
want to spend good money on silver jewellery. They can pick up a nice
pendant with made in India for about 12 UKP or less, on
Ebay or anywhere else on the internet. It’s pretty, it’s sterling
silver and it’s affordable. They don’t understand the difference
between what I make and what they can pick up for much less. It
doesn’t matter to them that my jewellery is hand-fabricated and that
I set my stones “correctly”, rather than just glue them in. Some
pieces can take me a few days to make, depending on how complex they
are, or how many hours my health permits me to work. Other pieces I
can complete in a day or less. Customers are interested in a look for
a particular budget. However, when it comes to gold jewellery, people
expect to pay more for that and I think that there will be less
resistance. I get lots of compliments on my jewellery. People tell me
it’s beautiful. I give away a lot and those I give it away to,
promise future commissions which may or may not materialize. I am
convinced that if my pieces were made from gold (be it white or
yellow), that I am more likely to make sales.

I’ve got my fingers crossed about a particular piece drumming up some
business though. I’ve just made a turquoise, peridot and London blue
topaz necklace and earring set for a friend’s auction at her charity
ball on November 8th. It’s away for hallmarking at the moment, but
when I get it back and I’ve set the stones and finished it, I’ll post
it on my blog. Jen says that I may well get a few customers as a
result of the sale of the set and its surrounding publicity. Great
timing just in time for Christmas. I’d better get some new images of
new pieces uploaded onto my website so that there’s something for
people to look at! I’m rubbish at keeping up to date with
photographing my work. So many pieces have gone out the door without
pictures being taken, and they were my best pieces to date - doh!

But yes Neil, I completely agree with you. If you’re wanting to make
money out of this game, then it makes perfect sense to fabricate
using higher value materials like gold and higher value gemstones and
produce a product that people are prepared to pay more money for.
The same amount of work for a higher profit margin = no brainer.

Helen
UK
http://www.hillsgems.co.uk
http://www.helensgems.etsy.com
http://helensgems.ganoksin.com/blogs/

63 
Is anyone familiar with the difference between what they are
alloyed with in Europe as opposed to what is produced in the U.S.

Here in the UK, the supplier I use has platinum alloys of the
following composition:

97% platinum, 3% copper
95.5% platinum, 4.5% copper
95.5% platinum, 4.5% cobalt

Their palladium alloy (no gold) is:

95% palladium, remainder gallium and copper

Their 18K white gold alloys are:

75.1% gold, 10% silver, 0.5% platinum, 7.4% palladium, remainder
copper and zinc

75.1% gold, 13% palladium, 11.85% silver

75.1% gold, 13.9% palladium, 3% silver, remainder copper and zinc

75.1% gold, 8% palladium, 4.66% silver, remainder copper and indium

75.1% gold, 11.5% palladium, 2.5% silver, remainder copper and
indium

75.5% gold, 8% palladium, 4.66% silver, remainder copper and indium

75.1% gold, 17% palladium, 7.9% silver

75.1% gold, remainder nickel, zinc and copper (complies to one part
of European nickel directive, but not the other which applies to
posts for body piercing).

Their 9K white gold alloys are:

37.6% gold, remainder copper, zinc and nickel (complies to one part
of nickel directive but not the other)

37.6% gold, 54.6% silver, remainder copper

37.6% gold, 55.47% silver, remainder copper and zinc

I hope I’m not being unethical in answering the question with such
But I don’t think that’s the case as the is
clearly available on their website, for all to see.

Helen
UK

64 
Do I think there are some more reasonable jewelry sales being made
online? Absolutely.

I had somebody shopping for a 2 ct., and he had gotten a stone from
Blue Nile. It was a G/VS or something - I really don’t recall. What
it actually was, was junk, which only an expert would have gotten
from the cert. It looked to be a recut of a chipped stone, and the
proportions were those of an old European cut, though it was modern
brilliant faceting. Not only did he not buy it, but it cured him from
buying a diamond online. Plus the whole experience cost him $100 or
something in shipping. What a mess…

65

Color and light are different.

Black, when talking about color, is a result of all the primary
colors mixed together.

Black, when talking about light, is simply the absence of light.

66

Leonid,

I guess it worth repeating again! The contact between diamond and
ink, or pain, or grease, or any other substance which adheres to
the surface of diamond is not the same like diamond in mechanical
(physically touching) contact with a setting.

Go look at the Hans Meevis blog on this subject and then try to make
the same statement. It’s pretty obvious what tarnish behind a bezel
does from his pictures.

http://meevis.ganoksin.com/blogs/2008/10/26/

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC

67 
What you say is only partially true. Yes, you're right that no
black rays of light exist. However, take a diamond in a new,
tarnish free setting, with mirror bright surfaces. Many diamonds
are not ideal cut and so may leak some light out of the pavilion
facets. These rays will be reflected back by the mirrored surfaces
of the setting. Alternatively, take a tarnished setting where the
metal in contact with the pavilion has turned black. Any light rays
leaking from the pavilion will be absorbed by the black colour.
Black absorbs light rays rather than reflecting them. Therefore
light is lost and the diamond WILL look darker just as Daniel and
others have said.

This is common misconception. To put it plainly, and
diamonds especially cut in such a way that light leaking at girdle
area is not possible. Explanation is convoluted, so I am going to
include one. You can try to trace a path of light inside diamond to
convince yourself of that fact. Another point is that all this
discussion only applies to well cut stones and well designed and well
executed settings. If 5 millimeter diamond sits in a setting with 2
millimeter opening, a lot of weird stuff can happen. I can guaranty
that if contact of pavilion of diamond with setting is limited to 0.1
millimeter or even less, you are not going to have any problems.

Your second point that not all diamonds are well cut is not factual,
but even if it would be true, it does not overturn my argument. There
are reasons why gemstones are cut in a certain way and settings are
constructed in a certain way. It is a job of a jeweler to know what
these reasons are and to apply the knowledge when jeweler is shopping
for gemstone, and when jeweler sets the It is true that
small changes in gemstone cut or setting construction could have
major consequences in gemstone appearance.

Leonid Surpin

68

I just love Helens answers she is down to earth however if people are
abhorred with the idea of a synthetic stone being called a diamond or
type or whatever How can you guys call White gold 'WHITE GOLD " IMHO
it should be called gold alloy thats whats misleading the public. ITS
NOT WHITE GOLD ask any man on the street they will say its a white
form of gold - not a mixture of gold and precious metals to make it
white ‘alloy’? There is no natural white gold like there is no
natural Cz! Iknow natural gold is not 100% pure also but not white
anywhere?

Frank

69 
Your second point that not all diamonds are well cut is not
factual, but even if it would be true, it does not overturn my
argument.

If you are going to use Tolkowsky’s book as a reference for this
entire argument (which I believe you did in a prior posting on this),
then you have to assume that he knew what he was saying when he said
the American Ideal Cut, that he developed, is the best cut for a
diamond. Given that until a few years ago less than 2% of the world’s
diamonds were cut to ideal proportions, and that even now it hovers
only somewhere around 5%, then it would be a pretty factual statement
that most diamonds are not well cut. Certainly they aren’t ideal cut,
which means that most of the way the light should work in a diamond
(if the stones are well cut per Tolkowsky) won’t in those stones. I
think there is no argument however because if you went and looked at
the pictures on Hans Meevis’ blog, it was pretty clear that a
tarnished setting dramatically darkened the diamond.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC

70 
I am quite surprised that some who fabricate jewelry and has years
of experience would not know that a tarnished bezel would darken a
diamond as Daniel Spirer explained.

This just has to be laid to rest.

Back in the early/mid/late 1800’s, with diamonds becoming
fashionable and prevalent in the marketplace, it was discovered and
found that they looked best set into white metal. Although platinum
had been known for some time, the combination of expense and
prohibitive temperatures (Until the advent of pressurized gas and
oxygen) made it unsuitable for production jewelry. White gold was
not invented until the era of WW2. Thus silver was commonly used as
the white metal for almost a century. Although it seemed like a good
idea at the time, silver has two major problems: First is that it is
far too soft for the job of making fine jewelry, and especially
setting diamonds into. Even though efforts were taken to use lots of
metal in setting, almost no rings survive from the period, and even
brooches and pendants are fairly rare. Those that do survive are
almost invariably repaired and even altered.

This history is stuff that everybody and anybody who works in the
jewelry trade knows already. It’s not a secret.

The second problem nobody could foresee. Before the industrial
revolution, silver rarely or never tarnished under daily use. It was
the industrial revolution that dumped billions of tons of sulfur
into the air, which made the world we live in today, where silver
tarnishes easily and quickly in air. Even more so in moist air. So,
the jewelry that was made in the 19th century came out looking fine
and beautiful, not too different that white gold jewelry would look
like, and it stayed that way. Little by little the sulfur content of
the world’s air rose higher and higher, and all the silver in the
world started to tarnish regularly. That includes all of that finely
crafted, highly detailed silver-topped jewelry that looked so fine
before. Now it all was at least tarnished and in many cases black,
all down into the tiniest details, under the stones, inside and out.
And all those diamonds became visually dark, because of the blackness
underneath and around the girdles. Not only that, but the jewelry
began to rot, because the oxidition doesn’t stop at the surface.

This is also stuff that everybody and anybody who works in the
jewelry trade knows. It also is not a secret.

Last week. Jo-Ann had a silver cuff bracelet with diamonds set into
it that the customer wanted black. She had painted it with antiquing
paint (oxidizer wasn’t black enough), and rubbed off the tops of the
diamonds, which were of course black. I told her to remove it
immediately, because once the paint set up in the seats of the
stones, there was no getting it out without resetting all of the
stones. She did that, and with a tiny brush painted up to the edge
of all the stones, without letting the paint get into the bearing.
If it had, the diamonds would have gone dark, and she would have had
to start over.

This is also stuff that everybody and anybody who works in the
jewelry trade knows. It also is not a secret.

And thanks to Han’s inventive and instructive demo. Most of us who
actually work in the jewelry trade have already seen it first hand
many times, but I’m sure there are some who need to have it
demonstrated. This is not a secret. It’s not even especially
advanced knowlege…

71 
That means that all air was displaced and atmospheric pressure in
the space between diamond and setting is zero. Such a stone would
be held firmly in place by atmospheric pressure from the outside

Equal pressure still exists above and behind the stone, so there is
no vacuum holding the stone down into its setting. The logic
displayed in the referenced post is so flawed and incomplete
its…unfortunate. Its ineffective to selectively use some laws of
nature to bolster a contention and ignore those that do not.

a chapter from grade school physics book explaining The chinese
saying "wise man walks humble!" seems quite appropriate here.

Yes. Indeed. I see your point.

72

It might be wise to not interpolate the read thru effect as meaning
that ALL light that enters a diamond enters only thru the crown.
True, this is the majority of the light but it is not all of it. If
that were the case when you use dark field illumination you would
see nothing at all. But what you do see is the reduced light that
refracts into the stone thru the pavilion and girdle.

Read thru simply means that theoretically the light that enters thru
the table is reflected off the inside surfaces of the pavilion and
doesn’t refract out. It doesn’t address the girdle at all. And its
the girdle that allows color bleed, light absorption if you prefer.

73

Leonid,

Theory be damned, do YOU make sure that all stones are supper clean
before heating. One speck of dirt etc. behind any stone can sure
ruin my day.

Jeff
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand

74 
If you are going to use Tolkowsky's book as a reference for this
entire argument (which I believe you did in a prior posting on
this), then you have to assume that he knew what he was saying when
he said the American Ideal Cut, that he developed, is the best cut
for a diamond. Given that until a few years ago less than 2% of the
world's diamonds were cut to ideal proportions, and that even now
it hovers only somewhere around 5%, then it would be a pretty
factual statement that most diamonds are not well cut.

Not every deviation from Tolkowsky cut render diamond problematic.
You have to consider the context when evaluating what was said. One
deviation from Tolkowsky cut is 57% table. It will shift the balance
of returned light towards brilliancy, but will not produce ugly
consequences like varying pavilion angle. So you it may not be a
Tolkowsky cut, but it will still be a well cut diamond.

Leonid Surpin

75 
To put it plainly, and diamonds especially cut in such a
way that light leaking at girdle area is not possible.

I didn’t mention light leaking out of the girdle. I said light
leading out of the pavilion facets.

Another point is that all this discussion only applies to well cut
stones and well designed and well executed settings.

A point I also made, but that the majority of stones are actually
not “well” cut and so light leakage will occur.

Your second point that not all diamonds are well cut is not factual,
<>. If your above statement is correct, then you’re saying that all
diamonds are well cut. This is clearly not the case.

Just look at Hans Meevis’s blog entry of yesterday. He proves the
argument very clearly indeed. It can not be disputed, no matter how
much you wish to blind people with science and your knowledge of
optical properties of diamonds.

Helen
UK

76 
I just love Helens answers she is down to earth

Thank you Frank!

How can you guys call White gold 'WHITE GOLD "

The same can be said for yellow gold used in jewellery. It must be
alloyed to make it workable. In the case of 18K, it has at least 75%
gold content and so I don’t have a problem calling it gold, whether
it’s white or yellow. It’s just the rhodium plating I have problems
with, but it’s just my personal opinion. I don’t have a problem with
the example John gave (I think it was John), where his customer
wanted her yellow bracelet changed to white. She couldn’t afford to
have it remade and so chose to have it rhodium plated. She was fully
aware of it and knew it was temporary and that it would need to be
redone. In that situation I too would have had the jewellery plated.
So I’m not against it per se. When buying my 18K white gold ruby and
diamond ring, if the jeweller had told me that it had been rhodium
plated (this was years before I got into this business), and that it
would wear off, showing a somewhat brownish white gold underneath,
then I would have chosen the yellow gold version of the ring
instead. I had no idea that white gold had to be plated. It’s all
about giving the customer informed choices, but the big chain stores
don’t do that at all. Now that there are white gold alloys which
don’t need to be rhodium plated, I’ll be using one of those in
preference to one which does require plating.

Helen
UK

77

Hi Neil,

It might be wise to not interpolate the read thru effect as
meaning that ALL light that enters a diamond enters only thru the
crown.

I realise that light enters the diamond from elsewhere too, but chose
to use the light entering through the crown for the purposes of my
argument. However, Hans’s blog post yesterday demonstrates what we’ve
been trying to say far more clearly than battling back and forth with
words, so thanks Hans.

Helen
UK

78 
On that point I think asking WHY is apt to be more productive. Why
do I choose to make $600 a week? Maybe I'm afraid of the risk.
Maybe I'm afraid of myself. Maybe I just don't have the capital.
Whatever the answer, once I know it maybe I can do something about
unleashing some potential.

Well geez Neil! What a can of worms you open with that one!

For one thing, I was not born with a trust fund. I am just now
starting to work in 18KT. I think Mr. Donovan once put it best…“I
didn’t pop out of the womb making fine jewelry.” I sure wish I did. A
perfect case in point is platinum. The delta between Pt and gold is
pretty good. But can I cast in it when all I know how to cast is
sterling? I get nervous when my caster tells me it usually takes them
a couple of times to cast Pt right…so how am I supposed to do it?
The two main problems are: do I have the $$ to put in to it when it
takes me umpteen times to get it right? and do I have the skills to
work this metal yet? If I have the cash flow to do it and if I feel
the item will look good in gold, then I will attempt to make it in
such.

So speaking of “challenging” and “new financial horizons”, try this
one on…I recently did “an art” bracelet. It’s a very simple
bracelet - no gemstones in it. McDonald’s has their Quarter Pounder
and I have my “Third Pounder”…yup you got that last part
right…it’s a solid sterling silver bracelet weighing in at a third
of a pound. Retails for $2K.

Now, please don’t send me flaming emails about how I can’t possibly
sell that thing for $2K.

Smoochies!
Kennedi

79

I thought this was finished by now…

diamonds especially cut in such a way that light leaking at girdle
area is not possible.

A fallacy. I have in my hand a diamond of about a carat and a half
with a faceted girdle. Louping the stone I can see my finger thru the
girdle, moving behind the diamond. (Please, try this at home). Its a
window. If I can see thru it, its leaking. And the path of the light
Because of critical angle some flesh colored light is refracting into
the pavillion and crown.

Leonid, I don’t wish to sound ‘whatever’, but you might remember that
some/many of us here actually know what we’re doing and can’t be so
easily buffaloed. And I at least (I think some others too), will
rebut mislest it become accepted in the minds of the
uninitiated/untrained. I mean, what’s the point of sharing
if its erroneous?

regards,
Neil (not a member of the flat earth society)

80 
So speaking of "challenging" and "new financial horizons", try
this one on....Retails for $2K.

Well, then, you’re on the road.

Thirty something years ago when I was teaching myself some basics I
applied to a local jeweler with decades of history. When I returned
for the followup I see he’s making a copy of the very piece I used
as a sample of my work. So, there’s this guy with experience, copying
me who had virtually none. If he’s satisfied doing monkey work at
that stage of his career, God bless him, I wouldn’t be after that
much time.