Problems with Pepe Mill sold by Stuller

Jewelry Discussion
41 
There are a great many very high quality goods being made in
China. Inferior quality is not inherent to China, it is simply what
they are being asked to produce!

And I must respectfully disagree with this. The whole Chinese
mindset on doing business is radically different than that in the US
and most of the Western world. They are eager to promise what you
want, and see no problem morally or ethically with then delivering
what they choose to produce - whether or not it is actually to your
specs or not. Then they are astounded that you aren’t willing to keep
the inferior goods at a negotiated reduced price.

My husband runs a textile manufacturing company that is now the last
of its kind in the US. Several years ago when it became obvious that
China was going to be a formidable part of his industry for those
who buy price not quality, and that he could never meet their prices
with US labor laws, he contracted with a Chinese manufacturer to make
products according to his specifications to supplement the top
quality US produced goods he continues to manufacture here. They
signed a contract specifying exactly what was to be produced, shipped
a sample that met those specs, then shipped a number of full overseas
shipping containers (Huge quantity!) that did not even come close.
Then expected him to keep the non-spec inferior goods and be happy to
do so at a discounted price. He shipped them all back at their cost,
and arranged a trip to China where he now controls and buys the
entire output of a factory there, so that he can get what he orders.

So yes, they sure can make quality. But no, they won’t do it on
their own for the most part…it is not what their manufacturing
culture is set up for. Not a “down” on China, just a major cultural
difference…to them, what they are doing is good and acceptable
business. This is not speaking to the craft/art segments in China,
just the manufacturing segments.

If you are happy with an iffy quality tool and are buying price,
then Chinese tools are great. I use some myself, depending on what it
is and what I am doing, and know that I will be replacing them often.
For major tools, or where precision is required, I personally would
not ever buy Chinese made tools. The quality is simply too erratic.
You can get lucky and hit a good one, but that is, in my experience,
rare.

Just my 2 cents worth. Your mileage may vary.
Beth in SC

42

Ms. McClanan:

In your post extolling the virtues of Dave Arens’ “inexpensive” copy
of our original Jump Ringer, you state that you cut 50-250 ounces of
wire per week in sterling silver, fine silver, gold filled, Argentium
sterling, copper, brass, 14K, 18K, 22K, yellow, white, red and green.
That is a fair number of jump rings! Has it never occurred to you
that you are wasting a tremendous amount of time by constantly hand
winding, loading, unloading and cutting 3" long coils? In about the
same amount of time, you could be power winding, loading, unloading
and cutting a 15" long coil with our Long High Production Jump
Ringer? What is the largest inside diameter jump ring you can now
make? With any of the various Jump Ringer models you can easily go
above 1" without any accessories. In addition to the above, our new
MKII will allow you to cut ANY metal including stainless or any other
alloy of steel, iron, titanium, niobium and platinum. What are these
lost opportunities and lower productivity costing you? Yes, you
invested less when you purchased the tool but what is it now costing
you? You did not buy an inexpensive tool. you bought a cheap tool!
CHEAP IS EXPENSIVE!

Ray Grossman
Ray Grossman Inc.
Inventors & Manufacturers of
Jump Ringer Systems

43 
Like it or not, but humans are not programmed to act in the
interest of others and to think long term.

Fortunately, this cynical and pessimistic point of view is far from
universal-- or true. The “prisoner’s dilemma” is not about altruism,
but about trust, a different matter altogether.

If it were true, the race would have died out long ago, as babies
would never survive. The act of raising children proves otherwise,
just as an example.

While it is certainly true that people will act in their own
self-interest, that concept is far more complex than simply
selfishness and hedonism. A person’s self-interest also includes the
necessity of feeling good about himself, having self-respect and
honor, not being nagged by doubts and conscience. It also includes
awareness of community. How these concerns are balanced varies with
the individual, the culture, the conditions.

I refer you once aggain to Mr Menkin.

Noel

44

Where are Pepe tools actually made? Someone mentioned Italy and
China. I had heard they were from Russia. Anyone know for sure? Do
they all come from the same place?

Allan Mason
Hermosa Beach, CA

45

Hi…

There is a phenomena studied by economists and game theorists
knows as "Prisoner's Dilemma".

This got my attention. What you’re speaking of isn’t endemic to all
individuals. This is an issue of class. The working class, lower
middle class and the poor all resemble your points.

Look at the stock market…MANY people acting in ways other than the
‘prisoner’s dilemma’ theory. It is an idea that has bombarded those
who have less. The rich, the elitists, they don’t say "give me the
safest stock you’ve got…nor do they keep their money sitting in a
nice, safe bank account.

The lower classes are trained up on this concept…many only survive
from day to day. In the process of that survival, immediate
gratification becomes vital because they doubt they will be able to
manage over the long-term. How else is it that poor people purchase
cars? They pay much more than the car is worth, just to have it now.
If they put the monthly payment amount in a bank somewhere, they
would be able to buy it for much less.

The problems have become apples and oranges. The company buys in
ways that fit their mission statement, their values, and their
business. If that means they don’t bother with specs on something
they sell during the product’s lifetime (discontinued or not), that
says something about their business. Maybe they are more progressive,
their company more focused on the ‘buy newer, buy often’ theory.

People tend to buy as fits their economic situation and station in
life.

just my observations.
Kim

46 
One of our nephews suffered lead poisoning. He's alright,but still
experiencing the effects. The hospital and county nurse program
nurses knew it was from inexpensive toys from China (as he wasn't
exposed to any lead paint that they could point to). So the
reality of the lead in toys has been with us some time.

I look around my friends at 70 - 80 years old and wonder how on earth
we managed to survive! When I was young most of my toys contained
lead - lead soldiers that were a nice size for sucking when in a
contemplative mood, toy cars with lead in the metal alloys, ALL the
paint both on toys and the house, lead water pipes, leaded petrol and
101 other things. At work I was surrounded by lead containing things
and, for a time at least, worked on repairing lead water and gas
pipes involving blowlamps and lead fumes as did the amusement I had
in the 50’s and 60’s of casting lead toys from old molds I was
given… has lead changed - or maybe the human physiology?? I think
I still have all my marbles as witnessed by my having recently
finished building a cnc milling machine from scratch including all
the electronics etc. and learning how to use it and my ongoing work
in repairing and restoring some of the most complicated and delicate
watches and chronometers ever made… Sometimes I wonder if the
current ‘environmental concerns’ aren’t a little over reaction…

Best wishes,
Ian
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK

47

Hi Wayne,

I disagree. There are a great many very high quality goods being
made in China. Inferior quality is not inherent to China, it is
simply what they are being asked to produce! Old ideas die hard,
though.

I didn’t say that ALL goods made in China are bad - China is a big
country with a diverse manufacturing base but there have been a
number of articles recently which have described the scenario I
mentioned where some of the larger manufacturers are outsourcing the
manufacturing process ratherthan keeping it in house and not having
a proper quality control program. On a practical level I think that
most people will have come across files that are not hard enough or
are badly cut, pliers whose jaws don’t meet cleanly and hammers that
are too hard or made of the wrong steel which shatter when struck on
an anvil. The problem is not only confined to China as the same
situation is appearing in tools made in India (which also makes SOME
very good tools) and in other Eastern Block countries. The real
difficulty this leads to is in trying to differentiate the good from
the bad and the risk of wasted money makes people naturally shy away
from

all the products of such a country. I agree that this is probably
largely a result of being asked to produce goods to a price rather
than a design= spec. and is driven by marketing people in our
supermarkets who have pro= bably never even indulged in DIY but often
the difference between making a bad tool and a good one is so small
that you have to wonder why the pride of the workers involved
doesn’t come into play… after all, they must use tools themselves.

Best wishes,
Ian
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK

48

Ray - Although I certainly understand your interest in stating that
the person gets what they pay for, and although I certainly agree
that your Jump Ringer System is a quality system…Dave Arens’ Koil
Kutter system is also an excellent and quality system that I use a
lot and that produces jump rings of superb quality and uniformity. It
costs less, but I have not found that Dave’s quality is lacking at
all. Just a happy customer with the usual disclaimers.

BBR - Sandi Graves
Stormcloud Trading Co (Beadstorm)
Saint Paul, Minnesota
651-645-0343

49

Dear Allan,

The Pepe rolling mill was manufactured in Eastern Europe. Stuller
has always taken the position to offer a variety of rolling mills.
The Pepe rolling mills product line is a good option if you or any
other jeweler needs to save a few dollars.

We also offer an excellent quality line of Durston mills
manufactured in England and the Cavallin mills manufactured in Italy.

Jim Wright
Product Manager-Tools & Supplies
Stuller

50

Comments from both Kim and Ian, bring forth philosophical thoughts.
Pride in Workmanship was delivered to me by my parents, both
immigrants who fled Hitler and Mussolini.

Save to buy quality, was a constant message from my mother. Pawning
my gold jewelry paid my mortgage. I did not buy a house until I was
60. I felt interest on a mortgage was ripping off those who could
not pay cash. Well, had I bought a house I looked at in Beverly
Hills, then 75K and was able to keep up payments and maintenance, I
would be sitting pretty now. Who knows.

Many persons newly employed today in many locations, from
Maquiladoras in Mexico, to Factories in India and China, come from
the poorest of the poor, they have one thing in common, lack of
adequate education.

Everything Kim mentions runs true, instant gratification causes many
to just buy, and damn the consequences. It took me years to prove
the value of education to persons close to me, coming from abject
poverty and minimal education. I am working very hard to convince my
grandsons that talent alone to success is not enough. Education must
be there, especially some Business Management skills, to really be
effective. Exposure to culture, literature, arts, so widens one’s
arena. The young and lesser educated, just do not get it.

Ian’s comments on lead exposure, made me smile. I remember wanting a
thermometer to break, so I could coat my nickels with Mercury and
make them shine. Enamelists today lament the loss of color in lead
less paints.

I know age is a big factor in many of the opinions expressed. I hope
some of the younger ones will run with some of what the elders among
us speak about.

Buildings and Bridges collapse world over, because there was too
much sand in the cement, or the metal was improperly foundered. Those
are deliberate ethical miscues. For everything else, education,
education, education.

Hugs,
Terrie

51 
I look around my friends at 70 - 80 years old and wonder how on
earth we managed to survive! [snip]...... Sometimes I wonder if
the current 'environmental concerns' aren't a little over
reaction...

I know what you mean… and, though I, too, feel that I still “have
all my marbles”, I worry about my own exposures in youth (it was my
job, for example, to spray Chlordane all around our house to kill
fleas). It does make you feel that the dangers may be exaggerated,
in our risk-averse culture.

On the other hand, I recently heard about some really fascinating
research that apparently shows a direct correlation between the
removal of lead from paint and gasoline and the drop in violent
crime that the mayors of all our big cities are attributing to their
improved policing methods and get-tough policies. Because the lead
accumulation happens (happened) mostly during childhood, causing
brain damage that eventually effects intelligence, impulse control
and behavior in ways that become relevant most noticably in
adolescence and adulthood, there is a lag between cause and effect.
As has come up in another context, we are not, as a culture, very
good at planning for-- or seeing-- long term, delayed effects. But
it seems much more likely to me that the sudden, widespread drop in
violent crime all around the US is being caused by a sudden
widespread drop in environmental lead contamination a generation ago
than by a thousand disparate approaches in different cities.

So, hard to know when “enough is enough”.

By the way, next week when my schedule goes back to normal, I reckon
I’ll stop writing these philosophical dissertations…

Noel

52 
The "prisoner's dilemma" is not about altruism, but about trust, a
different matter altogether.

Prisoner’s Dilemma has nothing to do with trust. The reason it
studied by academia is that the result of people acting in their self
interest is counter-intuitive. They are winding up in much worse
situation than if altruism been the motivation. But since altruism is
not the default human behavior and market economies are based on
principals of one acting in his own self interest, it sets up a
paradox which is not easily resolved through the application of
logic.

Leonid Surpin.

53

i am wondering if any one wants to attempt to fix the pepe mill ?
every one seems to want to grouse instead of solve the problem ! if
someone will post or send the gear measurements offlist i will be
happy to look for replacement gears. generic gears are available in
many sizes and configurations for those of you who dont know this.
my humble and unpopular opinion holds that returning the mill to a
working condition with out the help of mfg’r or supplier will be a
bigger insult than saying negative things about them

goo

54 
Prisoner's Dilemma has nothing to do with trust. The reason it is
studied by academia is that the result of people acting in their
self interest is counter-intuitive.

I bow to the manifest reality that I will not change your mind.
However, I cannot help myself–

If an altruistic behavior is what will lead the prisoner in the
dilemma to the best outcome (not trust that his co-prisoner will
keep silent) then you would have to conclude that the Mafia is a
supremely altruistic group. If you imagine a pair of mafiosi in the
dilemma, you know that they would never speak and would, therefore,
have the maximal outcome. In almost any traditional, tight-knit
community, the potential “rat” would know that the consequences of
speaking would be worse than merely being imprisoned-- everyone in
the community would know who had betrayed the other person.

Thus, self-interest is not as simple and clear-cut as it would at
first seem. QED.

Noel

55

Orchid members; As the original poster, I would like to say that
Stuller responded ASAP to my post. I have had a long discussion with
Jim Wright -Product Manager Tools & Supplies regarding my situation
with this mill, the level of service (that needs attention); and how
best to resolve my loss. That is a private matter, but I would like
to say that I got Stuller’s attention. They did and do stand behind
what they sell.

Now as for Pepe tools?..Mike Stromberg wrote that they stand
behind all of Pepe’s Tools. Pity, that their technical department
could not in a timely manner, (over 2 months that they had my mill!)
respond to me and tell me that this mill is no longer manufactured
and therefore does not have spare parts. They could have offered
drawings for the gears in questions instead their answer was go find
your self a machine shop to make the gears! …after I had to call.

Impressions are lasting, I purchased this mill, because my
impression was that Stuller would sell a “quality” product. When in
fact that impression might be incorrect. The fact that I have read
way to many posts regarding the poor quality of Pepe Tools saddens
me. I always buy the best tool I can afford! Probably not in this
case.

As to those to have offered to either locate gears, or fabricate,
the mill finally arrived back to me yesterday. I will contact you off
list if I can not locate gears from Boston Gear.

Upon opening the box we found that almost all the parts had been
returned. The registration pins and screws that hold the gear box
together are no where to be found. Another strike against Pepe, as
they can not even return what they were sent. Glad I did not send
the original paper work, as that was not returned either, yet the UPS
label reference 1 “Returned Rolling Mill”. reference 2 “as is”.
{…Less a few things…}

Lesson learned - don’t buy Pepe tools unless you want disposable
tools. Second lesson learned - research the tool and all the
available options. Tools are not an impulse buy!

My last comment is one addressed to – Richard Hart as I quote “Might
as well sue the person who owned it for misuse! That is what probably
broke it!” If misuse was the question I probably would have looked
for gears myself, which it looks like I’m left to do anyway! I wish
you much success the next time you channel set princess diamonds—as
the last one goes in, may all the points brake! Operator
error!..or just bad diamonds?

I would therefore like to conclude this thread, I raised an issue,
resolution is underway, and may others learn a lesson or two. Happy
New Year to all!

Barb
Barbara Smith McLaughlin - Handcrafted Fine Jewelry
http://www.barbarasmithmclaughlin.com

56

We went a little bit of topic. I used 2 prisoners as an example
because that is how this problem defined in the text books, however
Mafia example does not negate the problem, because by keeping quiet
they are acting in their best interest, since the alternative is
death.

The more general problem is to understand why the best result is not
achieved by acting in one’s self interest. To apply our understanding
to Pepe Mill case, by acting in immediate self-interest and trying to
preserve our capital, we purchase low quality product and suffer the
consequences. We could make an argument that it would be acting in
our self interest by purchasing better quality and spending more
money, but element of uncertainty creeps in. What if we decide to
close our shop in 3 months ? The fact that better quality mill can
serve a life time is immaterial in this case. So it appears that
self-interest is modified by the time and the longer the time
interval, the more uncertain the prospect of deriving any benefit by
acting altruistically.

I am not advocating either course of action. I am simply observing
the difficulty in arriving at the right mix of quality that we trying
to get and money that we are willing to spend.

Leonid Surpin.

57 
[...snip] I am not advocating either course of action. I am simply
observing the difficulty in arriving at the right mix of quality
that we trying to get and money that we are willing to spend.

Thanks, Leonid, for your comments. Very well put, both of your
postings. They’ve helped me think more clearly about what I do.

I had always thought I agreed with the often expounded theory that
the best possible tools are the best possible investment as they’ll
reward us with a lofetime of service, yet I always seemed to be
buying cheaper tools of a lesser quality that blatantly showed me I
did not follow my own credo.

An answer has occurred to me. When I look at my tool use I note that
as I create things I also have a tendency to want to alter my tools.
Rather than use high precision tools to make my creations (where the
creativity is entirely in the object-making) I begin my creative
process a little earlier with the actual tools, and modify them in
an experimental way to serve my ideas better. I wouldn’t dream of
experimentally re-shaping an expensive tool, so maybe for me they
would have been a retrograde step for my style of creativity.

However it’s important to work with awareness, and using a low
quality tool requires another extra awarenes: it just might not stand
up to the use I’m putting it to, even in it’s normal (unmodified)
state. Put pressure on it and that may be too much for it.

That’s just tool care. Our part of the tool’s manufacture+use
equation that we all must perform, whether we use high quality high
precision tools or low quality low precision tools.

Brian
Auckland NEW ZEALAND

58

I have been watching and listening to the discussions that have been
going on about the Pepe Rolling Mill and Stuller. As a group, we at
Stuller made one of the biggest mistakes that any supplier can make
and that is that we did not keep in contact with Barb while we had
her rolling mill here for repair. We do try to learn from each of
our mistakes and sincerely try not to repeat them. At Stuller, we
carry several rolling mills to meet the needs of a wide range of
consumers. For instance, we have an Economy Mill for $369.00;
Cavallin Mill for $805.00 as well as a Durston for $1,595.00. You
may find that we do this with many of our tools so that you have a
wide selection to choose from.

We may not have been able to order the gear that Barb needed to
repair the mill that she purchased from us and we may have
frustrated her by not keeping in touch with her. However, we do our
very best to stand behind the products that we do sell and to provide
customer service after the fact. One of Stuller’s Tool Product
Managers has been in contact with Barb in an effort to come to an
equitable resolution to everyone on the mill. This will indeed make a
valuable learning experience for us all as we go into 2008 in ways
that we can provide better service to you all! Happy New Year!

Andy The Tool Guy Kroungold
Phone 800-877-7777 ext 4194
Fax 337-262-7791

59

Good News : I got a 1/2 hp gearmotor hooked up to Little Pepe, 287
in. lbs. of torque compared to 45 that the 1/4 hp motor I’m replacing
had. Some serious beef and it looks like I’ll be able to roll
buckle-sized plates of steel, maybe as large as 3" by 4".

Cautiously optimistic, and yes, if I knew what I was going to end up
doing when I got the Pepe almost as an afterthought, I would have
looked harder into mills… and probably not even have taken over
ownership it.

But anyway, the gears on mine seem to be able to take some abuse,
though we’ll see how they hold up over time… over time. The thing I
discovered as what I have to call a design flaw - even though it may
technically not even be one, because what do I know (?), I don’t
design tools, I beat them up - is the way the gear on the bottom
shaft is attached to the shaft. By a little biscuit that sits in a
little recess in the shaft that’s only about 2/3 mm deep. The biscuit
sticks up into the slot in the gear a nice 2mm or so, but there
should be a nice slot in the shaft too, a nice, normal, keyway and
square key like normal shafts and gears are done.

The recess and biscuit on mine are stripped out, so now the drive
shaft doesn’t drive the top shaft, it just spins… Time to get
sneaky
with the flexshaft and carve out a squarish slot in the shaft so I
can put in a nice, normal key, since I have no intention of sending
it off to be repaired.

Also anyway, the next chapters of the hammer texture rolling mill
saga are on hold…

Dar Shelton

60

What at first looked like the bottom of a recess in the shaft was in
fact the top half of the keyway biscuit that had sheared clear
through. The top half of the biscuit is what looked at first to be
the whole biscuit, so then I had the issue of replacing the biscuit.
Fortunately I had some 1/4" tool steel, so I sawed a piece and
sanded, and sanded, and sanded til it fit down in the recess, then I
torched it and quenched it and now it’s in the kiln for a temper. The
gear itself is not very hard at all, which is good I guess, in that
that means the teeth probably won’t break off. But soft is soft, and
with what I’ll be doing with the mill, it won’t surprise me if that
becomes another issue down the line. So I won’t temper the biscuit
very hard, because I don’t want it to tear up the keyway in the gear
or shaft, and because I don’t want it brittle. At least now I know
what I’m doing to my little Pepe, and that I can fix it , and write
about it, in less than the time it would take to track down a
replacement biscuit.

Stay tuned…

DS