Problems with Pepe Mill sold by Stuller

[cleverwerx]

Dear Mike,

I am glad that you have responded to this forum.

My experience from running a jewelry school for nine years, and from
the feedback from my students, I am sorry to say that your tools are
not good quality. This is sad, because many of your products are
quite innovative, but the manufacture quality falls short. This is
not a Stuller problem, this is a Pepe Tool problem and Stuller is not
the only supplier that sells your tools.

I purchased a round graduated circle cutter from Otto Frei many
years ago at a SNAG conference. I did not use the cutter, but noticed
that one of the cylindrical steel cutters did not quite fit correctly
into the receiving space. One of my students, under supervision, took
the cutter, put it into a hydraulic press and began cutting out a
circle. The cutter fractured in half. I inspected the cutter and
noticed, beyond the poor fit, that it had several round pits in the
metal, which I believe resulted from poor casting.

When I tried to return the circle cutter to Otto Frei, they refused
any kind of refund or exchange.

This left me with two problems. One, an inferior product and two, a
supplier that would not credit or exchange the unit for another one.
Although Otto Frei is a very good company and I would consider their
customer service to be quite high and responsive, this is a case
where it had fallen short.

Over the years, Metalwerx has purchased no less than 6 circle
cutters from Pepe, and they have all had serious problems with
inconsistent machining and fitting. It’s not a case of having the
luxury of purchasing a circle cutter from another company, yours is
the only one making them. And if there IS another company out there,
I would like to know who it is.

I purchased also from Otto Frei, a very nifty and clever Pepe Tool
magnetic third hand. It is constructed with a sturdy and heavy half
sphere base and a smaller round machined ball on top which fits
together with a magnet. Elegant! The movement was smooth and allowed
easy access for my crosslock tweezers for some very delicate
soldering operations. The top portion which actually held the
crosslocks with a screw was a round cylinder which had an internal u
shape cut. When this part was tapped for the screw, it was done at a
slant, making the action of the screw useless and when contacted
with the end of the tweezers, it barely held it on one side. If only
a little extra quality control was enforced to ensure that the proper
contact with the screw and the tool it was intended for was ensured,
this would have been a very useful and excellent tool. This is a good
example of an innovative design that became a paperweight.

If you truly are concerned as a tool manufacturer for the jewelry
industry, I believe that myself and others who might not have the
courage to speak out would agree with me, that when I search for a
quality tool to do my jewelry fabrication, I don’t first think of
Pepe. I feel that I have to settle for Pepe. Hobbyists may begin
their career with cheap tools, but professionals, no way. Your job as
a manufacturer is to make the best tool possible.

Your job as a company representative is to create a standard for
excellence in customer service for your distributors and to assist
anyone who is having enough difficulty to voice their need on this
forum to help them. Even if you don’t have the part, or no longer
manufacture the part, your job is to help your customers.

If you raise your own bar, others will follow. And that my friends
is something I learned at CLASP.

-k

[andy_c]

Hi Richard,

I had purchased a shear which I returned. It required way too much
fine tuning for the price. I went back to Diacro but I definitely
would look at the Durston shears. (My mill is a Durston.)

I did buy a set of large disc punches made by Pepe and, so far, I am
very happy with them. I use disc punches quite a bit and have a wide
variety of sizes. The large hole in this set is something like 2
1/4". The die comes apart which is a very nice feature.

Over all, I usually avoid Pepe tools. But they seem to be getting
better and they are becoming, it seems, unavoidable. It’s really a
case by case situation…

Happy Holidays,
Andy

[gustavo_hoefs]

well james - i must applaud your commentary on the tools. it is most
likely up to the consumer’s ability to weigh the the cost of
consequenses when buying crap tools against the rewards of success
when purchasing tools that can actually stand up through day in/out
uses. i think its up to philosphy and preserving the existance of
common sense. i am trying to do my part, but so many people have
never developed the ability to think in sustainable terms.

goo

[leonid_Surpin]

I am curious, who has Pepe rolling mills and how have they held
up? If Pepe and Stuller are going to be held responsible and share
blame for this one incident, it would be nice to have a reality
check and find out how dissatisfied other people are who own these
mills. I understand people have had problems with Pepe products.
Anyone have any success with any Pepe products, or are they all low
quality and to be avoided? 

I have been wondering about it myself. I have some tools made by
Pepe. I have their rolling mill. It developed simular problem after
about 2 month, but I was able to fix it myself and it has been
working since then. I have their disc cutters. I was so sceptical
about them, so I bought an extra set, but they are working very
well. I use them on 16 gage which is beyond the point of the swiss
cutters and no detrimental effect observed. I have a bench mounted
guillotine, which I have been abusing pretty hard, I use it to slice
ingots (for making wire and stuff). 5 mm thick and it cuts through
without any problems. However, none of it was bought recently. There
is also possibility that they make “special quality” for Stuller.
You know “the Walmart effect”.

Leonid Surpin

[Ray_Grossman5]

I have been following this thread with delight because its subject
is what I’ve been preaching for many years. When shopping for
anything, whether for personal or professional use, I look for value.
Value is comprised of several factors which I evaluate before making
the purchase. Those factors are:

– Quality - Will the item perform at least as well as expected.
– Service - Whether from the manufacturer or the vendor
– Pleasure - Will I enjoy using it
– Price - Notice that this is included but it’s last

The following is from a similar thread two years ago which I thought
bears repeating:

"If you make a lot of jump rings, most folks use either the Koil
Kutter (which Dave Arens on this list makes and which I'm going
to be buying as soon as I can scrounge up the money) or the Jump
Ringer which people have been talking about in this thread, and
which is quite expensive." 

"The Koil Kutter is much more economical and many people like it
better than the Jump Ringer. Some people prefer the Jump Ringer
and apparently have the extra money to spend. Look back in the
Archives for past discussions on the pros and cons of each
system, there was an extensive conversation on this pretty
recently."

My answer:

I must reply to the above. What follows is the knowledge gained
in 53 years of experience in one phase or another of the jewelry
manufacturing trade. I am addressing this to [] and to all others
who might think as he does. Absolutely no malice is intended. It
is merely an effort to advise. 

Cheap is expensive! 

If you make or intend to make your living in a manual trade, use
the best tools you can find for each task. You get what you pay
for. When you use cheap tools, you pay for them many times over.
Your additional costs occur in one or more of the following ways:
lost productivity, shorter useful tool life, poorer quality of
product and the loss of the simple pleasure of working with high
quality implements. 

[] writes that he will buy the "Koil Kutter" as soon as he can
"scrounge up the money". To him I say that if your goal is to
have to scrounge up the money to buy cheap tools for the rest of
your life, you are right on target. If however, you want to be
successful, wait a little longer to buy quality. Pretty soon you
will be able to afford quality without the need to compromise or
wait. 

Ray Grossman
Ray Grossman Inc.
Inventors & Manufacturers of
Jump Ringer Systems

[andy_c]

Another Pepe tool-- the magnetic third hand – looks like a really
great idea. I immediately bought two. I’ve since gone back to the
standard, tried and true third hand. This new one is designed with
one less joint. This extra joint doubles the use of this basic tool.

Andy

[Bill_Churlik1]

Richard,

I have been following this Pepe thread. I have a 90mm flat mill. It
has served my school well for going on 5 years. Granted, I wanted a
Durston badly but at the time I had to spread the money over several
tools. I bought the Pepe because I new I could machine any part that
it might ever need. Yes, I do have an unfair advantage of being a
machinist amoung other skills. So far I have not made any new parts.
I also have a circle cutter. Have had no problems with it other than
having to sharpen the cutters every few months. It gets a LOT of use.
Maybe my lack of problems stems from having older models. I wish I
could say the new Hoke torches were as good as the old ones. Big
disappointment there.

Bill Churlik
www.earthspeakarts.com

[richard_hart2]

When I tried to return the circle cutter to Otto Frei, they
refused any kind of refund or exchange. 

So now Otto Frei joins Stuller in the crappy customer service
department.

It’s not a case of having the luxury of purchasing a circle cutter
from another company, yours is the only one making them. And if there
IS another company out there, I would like to know who it is.

I got a circle cutter I have used with no problems, it is from
Findingking. I do not endorse this company, I have got some useless
or marginal tools, but I modify to circumvent some of the problems,
like a parallel piers that were not.

I do not know what the Pepe mill that had the gear problem cost
originally, and I do not know what it would have taken for the owner
to find a gear and get it fixed, but if I got 6 or 7 years of use
for a poor quality tool, $50 or $100 dollars a year for what I got
out of it might be worth it.

Richard Hart

[richard_hart2]

For a good comparison of different disc cutters, check
www.findingking com and www.progresstool.com. Type disc cutter into
search. Progress sells individual disc punches if you damaged or
lost one. If you really look at all the choices, there is an Italian
one for $595 on Progress’s site. A domestic one on Findingkings site
for $40, which is one of the ones I have. Have had no problems so
far. Stuller has Eurotools disc cutters. For more fun and comparison,
type rolling mills in and cruise choices and prices. Progess tools
has replacement rollers, springs, bushing. Appears that Progress does
not carry Pepe while Stuller and Findingking do. Stuller has some
Italian mills on sale, reg. $700, now $400 while they last. just a
bit more than one of the Pepe mills. If someone wants one and does
not have an account, I can order one and have it drop shipped to you
after I get payment. If you cannot get into the site, e-mail me and I
can email picture and info from their site. Findingking is also on
Ebay. I got a diamond sieve, about 30 plates, $.01. I do not think
they will list that again for that price…now they are $30-$80, buy
it now items. There are quite a few disc cutters on Ebay, one
starting at $16.99. Probably Pepe tools.

Richard Hart

[Dan7]

There was a thread recently on “quality slip” in products
manufactured in china. Perhaps this is the situation that has
happened with Pepe tools. I know that I see too many poor decisions
made by management in companys due to being “price driven”. I
ascribe it to “bean counters” making the decisions, vs formerly being
made by engineers.

I work as an outside contractor in many facilities and see this, and
also talk to my brother who worked in Sweden where it is the same.
Quality and customer service have suffered at the hands of the
immediate profits. I think this is at least due in part to the
economic system where Wall St rewards short term profits vs the long
term.

From everything I have read and observed, Gems and Jewelry are still
very much trust driven and there will always be a place for those who
deliver customer service. I understand that in the diamond trade,
one’s word is one’s bond; and to fail to live up to your verbal
contract can spell the end of your business. I think that suppliers
should take note!

Dan Wellman
just a rockhound

[Noel_Yovovich]

so many people have never developed the ability to think in
sustainable terms. 

Probably many have not, but in a very real sense, thinking in
sustainable terms, as you use the term, is a luxury. Yes, a quality
tool will repay the investment, but it isn’t that simple. An extreme
example to make it clear is a family that lives on the edge of the
rainforest. It is unwise, in global terms, to clearcut the
rainforest and plant a year or two of crops before that earth is
exhausted and it must be done again, but the alternative is
immediate starvation.

OK, so that’s pretty dramatic, but many simple don’t have the choice
to do the longterm thing whether they understand or not.

For every complex problem there is a simple solution-- and it is
always wrong (to paraphrase H.L.Menken)

Noel

[tam2819]

Christmas Day thoughts about this thread.

Interesting commentary throughout.

Corporate bailouts and employee loyalty, reading Peter Rowe’s
comments, I have two contrasts. My long, almost 30 years, former
employer, was retrenching, and closing down a location. They needed
to operate until the final day, and told employees that they would
be protected, if they remained to the last day. Many bailed and found
similar positions with others, the ones who remained loyal to the
last day, found no other jobs were then available. The original
company no longer exists.

I just began a new job. I was hired because of my long history of
customer service, that being just what they were looking for. Friday
the 21st was my fifth day at work, it was also the day they handed
out corporate bonuses. I was included, and that brought tears to my
eyes. It was a small amount, but I was not left out, Chalk one up for
this company.

It was also the day for the Corporate Christmas Party, I was invited,
and asked to also bring my family. The event was held at an Indoor
Go- Cart Racing facility. My son and one grandson as well as one
roommate joined me at this party. We all had a great time, and
enjoyed wonderful food and friendship. There were races strictly for
those under 18, and then for the adults. My son had not been in a
Go-Cart for 30 years, he had a ball. His comment, “I have attended
many Corporate Christmas Parties, this one, hands down, is the best
one ever.” Chalk two up for this company. I think I am in the right
place.

Great customer service, starts at the top of the organization, offer
the best product you can, at a fair price, hire the best employee
you can, and treat them at least fairly, remember to offer praise for
a job well done, and offer council when necessary. When a failure
occurs, research it, and make amends where needed, to the customer
or the employee. Stand behind both your product and your employee.
Give your customer a reason to continue being your customer.

Hopefully, something positive will come out of all of this.

Hugs.,
Terrie

[gustavo_hoefs]

if the lady who put the original post up on the site or anyone else
for that matter will reply and list the gear size ID., OD., width & #
of teeth and keyway size i will be glad to look in my industrial
supply catalogue’s to see if there is a match for a new set of gears.
who knows maybe if we install a set of decent gears on the pepe the
roller shaft will shear off

goo

[Watchman]

I don’t know this particular mill but I’d like to bet that it is
made in China or somewhere similar and the deterioration of the brand
is due to the same factors which are affecting a wide range of other
items. Since China entered into the world of capitalism and started
its ‘industrial revolution’, many companies there realised - as has
been known in the west for some years - that big profits are not to
be made from manufacturing but from buying and selling. Consequently,
many companies which started up producing a decent copy of existing
western goods have actually reduced their in-house production and are
now outsourcing the production to other smaller companies and
’cottage-industry’ production with the result that guarantees of
quality are now almost impossible.

Having said that, with only a very few exceptions, it has always
been necessary for a workman to modify or ‘finish’ a tool before
he/she can use it to its best advantage - stoning the teeth off one
side or ‘safe edge’ of a file so that it will cut safely into a
corner, modifying the shape of a hammer head and polishing it to suit
its intended task, altering the angle of drill points to suit the
material they are to drill etc., etc. It is, however, necessary to be
able to rely on the basic quality of the metal that these tools are
made of and this is often now lacking in the cheaper tools from the
Far East.

Best wishes,
Ian
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK

[Barrie_Wakeford]

Anyone have any success with any Pepe products, or are they all low
quality and to be avoided?

Not with a Rolling Mill but with a Vac casting machine. I ahve one of
the Pepe EZ cast machines here in the workshop (I’m in the UK) and it
has given nothing but sterling service in the three years I have
owned it. OK the flasks are slightly smaller in diameter than the
ones I have from my UK tool supplier. it gets used about twice a week
for maybe six flasks, I have stripped and cleaned it twice. Once when
the flask blew because I crammed too much into it and the other just
because it was about ready for it.

I originally loked at the products available to me here and decided
that they were all too expensive, I then contacted a US tool company
(cant remember who) and they were unable to ship to me because of the
weight. They suggested contacting the manufacturer in Italy
(something NO British company would do). This I did, and after a
couple of emails, one phone call, and three days waiting, it arrived.
Oh did I mention it was 25% of the price of the same thing from the
UK suppliers and about the same as one from the US. I realise that
you get what you pay for but sometimes you pay more than the item is
worth.

Heres one happy customer of Pepe tools. Oh and my rolling mill is a
Durston (British made and I am proud of it).

Barrie

[leonid_Surpin]

so that's pretty dramatic, but many simple don't have the choice to
do the longterm thing whether they understand or not.

There is a phenomena studied by economists and game theorists knows
as “Prisoner’s Dilemma”.

Let us say 2 people committed a crime punishable by 10 years in
prison, but prosecutor cannot prove the case, and if the case goes to
trial, both criminals will be set free.

Smart prosecutor would separate one criminal from the other and
offer each one a deal. If he would testify against the other guy,
instead of 10 years he would only get 3 years. And of course, only
the
first guy to cooperate will get the deal. Invariably, one or the
other makes a deal and one guy gets 10 years, another guy gets 3
years, but if all would kept their mouth shut, they will be set free.

It is interesting to observe that while each acting in it’s own best
interest, both wind up mush worse then acting in the interest of one
another.

Like it or not, but humans are not programmed to act in the interest
of others and to think long term. Businesses and politicians are very
well aware of this fact and exploit it very skillfully. While
choosing, we want to act in our best interest and that mean to
maximize immediate return. Long term is uncertain and we do not like
uncertainty. It is a rare individual who given a choice between two
options, would chose uncertain better versus immediate o.k.

Leonid Surpin.

[Kim_Paluch]

Okay…I was completely struck and laughing out loud. I thought I
was the only one to quote now-obscure intellectuals! Thank you! My
husband will be much chagrined. He thought I was the only one.

And you’re right, the problem you use to illustrate is pretty
extreme for us, here, but less so for those who make that daily
decision.

There are thousands of similar illustrations just as ‘extreme’ to
some…take, for example, loans. In this country, if you are poor
and take out a loan on a vehicle, your interest is higher, your
monthly rate is higher, and you have to pay more. Bleeding the poor,
yes. And if you are poor you will take out a loan and pay half as
much for most vehicles than you would if poor. So who would do such a
thing? Those who need to.

Manufacturers are in business to make money. In business, if you are
not the one making your products, you can’t guarantee how they are
made, if made well, if the materials are what you say they are. Parts
purchased from less expensive manufacturers may be 100 percent grade
A. Sometimes not so much, particularly when purchased out of country.
It doesn’t matter what country is purchasing, which one is
manufacturing…laws are different, requirements may not be as
stringent, or there may be a loophole that your products fall into.

A current example: the current children’s jewelry from China. China
has very stringent laws in manufacturing, and the lead and other
hazardous materials are not allowed by law. One could assume that
products from China would, then, be better in quality. The problem?
Rarely are those laws enforced. The resulting effects on the workers,
and on those playing with or wearing the aforementioned products from
China are the proof. But the products are cheaper, so people bought
them. One of our nephews suffered lead poisoning. He’s alright, but
still experiencing the effects. The hospital and county nurse program
nurses knew it was from inexpensive toys from China (as he wasn’t
exposed to any lead paint that they could point to). So the reality
of the lead in toys has been with us some time. And so dangerous
products (or paint used for toys, etc.) have been in use until very
recently, precisely because they were inexpensive. It could as easily
have been a cog in a mill made more cheaply than a competitor, which
Pepe didn’t know would be made cheaply and wouldn’t know that there
is a weakness there only because the cogs were made so cheaply that
there was no quality assurance inspector checking cog
weight/thickness/whatever.

Hmm. rambled enough, and so I’m off to get some coffee. If I’ve said
too much, remember it was said without caffeine in my system (worse
than under duress.) Feel free to ignore or delete.

Kim

[Gemcutter]

Ian, I disagree.

There are a great many very high quality goods being made in China.
Inferior quality is not inherent to China, it is simply what they
are being asked to produce!

Old ideas die hard, though.

Wayne Emery

[jbin1]

I don't know this particular mill but I'd like to bet that it is
made in China or somewhere similar and the deterioration of the
brand is due to the same factors which are affecting a wide range
of other items. 

They claim to be made in Europe, and many of Pepe tools are made in
the Ukraine and possibly other Eastern European former Soviet block
nations. So Europe possibly yes depending on your definition of
Europe, but not in the nations that come to mind when fine machinery
is the subject of the conversation.

James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

HOME

360-756-6550

[Michelle6]

Mr. Grossman,

I have high respect for your tool and the accessories available for
it.

However, regarding the Koil Kutter vs Jump Ringer, I would say “More
expensive is just that… more expensive”. The Koil Kutter is not a
cheap tool, it is a less expensive tool. Your implications below and
your continuing assertions that the Jump Ringer is the only quality
jump ring cutter on the market are tiring and bordering on “thou dost
protest too much”.

Dave’s Koil Kutter is a fine tool in every sense. Its price makes it
available to the hobbyist, and its durability backed by Dave’s
excellent customer support makes this a great value for a
professional. For the last 2 1/2 years I have been cutting 50-250
ounces of wire a week (sterling silver, fine silver, gold filled,
Argentium sterling, copper, brass, 14K, 18K, 22K yellow, white, red
and green gold). The only down time I have had with it were when I
stripped the threads in the blade holder due to repeated
over-tightening. (I get heavy handed sometimes.) I have tried a few
other cutting set-ups looking for a higher out-put that has the same
high quality, but I come back to the Koil Kutter every time.

I save to buy the best tools that will get the job done correctly.
(Buy it right, buy it once.) I can’t waste the time and won’t waste
the money to do otherwise. If I had it to do all over again, I would
buy the Koil Kutter. When a chain maker asks what I recommend to cut
jump rings, I always give them Dave’s email. When the customers who
buy my finished chains ask how I cut the rings, I tell them about the
Koil Kutter, or if I have it with me-- I show them (I love show and
tell). And if I wear this one out before I buy a truly high output
cutting set up, I will purchase another Koil Kutter.

Michelle McClanan
owner- ChainWeavers
ChainWeavers.com