New to Ganoksin. First soldering Silver project (pendant) - What am I doing wrong?

Jewelry Discussion
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Hello Everyone!

I’m new to the community and am totally jazzed/thrilled to see such a vibrant area on the web where newbies like myself may hopefully learn from Veteran silversmiths.

A little bit of background: This past spring I essentially spent 2 months “in school” by purchasing every book I could on silversmithing. I studied, studied, studies 7-8 hours a day obsessively. I’m very determined to learn this art medium and want to eventually begin a small business with it.

Now onto the embarrassing newbie questions: Even with all that research and being well versed in much of the terminology and concepts - I’ve just sat down to trying out some simple projects and am coming to a stand still block.

I have put together a nice little beginner’s work station - I basically bought it all. I have a jeweler’s saw, blades, Dremel with plenty of attachments to match (radial discs, buffers, sanders, drills, burrs, etc), flexi sanders, needle files, metal cutting shears, all pliers, chasing/riveting hammers, and on and on… I have bought a good introductory amount of sheet metals and various wire gauges. I essentially set myself up with everything I knew I was eventually going to need.

I am a very “organic” person (don’t judge me! haha!), and so I was hoping to keep things as natural as possible with my pickle/flux solutions. First I tried vinegar/salt - that didn’t work at all. Now I’m onto a pure citric acid mixture. The real problem is soldering. I simply can’t seem to get my solder to melt let alone flow properly. Yes, I’ve watched various tutorials on this process too and it isn’t helping. I have purchased easy, medium, and hard solder. I somewhat understand the concept of when to use each, such as sort of working your way down (from hard to easy) depending on how many soldering joins you may need to do in a piece. Do I have that right?

I’ve chosen a borax cone for my flux and have a simple kitchen butane torch for heating. I’ve no clue if I’ve made a mistake or not with these two choices. When I try to do a simple solder join for a simple copper bezel (making the initial circle not soldering it to the plate yet), I used some homemade borax-distilled water slurry to paint the joins and surrounding areas - carefully sanded the joins so that they perfectly touch flush with one another - set a small piece of hard solder at the join - and went for it… It seems to take FOREVER to get the solder to melt with my torch, and when it finally did, it didn’t climb up the join. Instead it just created a tiny “dot” blob on the side and never climbed.

What am I doing wrong? Is my tiny butane torch not powerful enough? Do I need a different type of gas? And is a simple borax cone also not very powerful flux? When reading other forums, it seems like professional silversmiths have had no problem with just simple borax as a flux.

I’m so confused as to why I can’t get any solder to melt or join… :pensive: :pleading_face: :sob:

Any help in actually succeeding at this would be greatly appreciated.

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Try more flux both on the piece and the solder. Try not to melt the solder with the torch, heat the piece up to solder melting temperature and the solder should flow to the joint area.

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Thanks. Should I upgrade to a better torch? Is a mini Butane not good for silversmithing?

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copper is part of the problem, it really wants to scale up with heat and will prevent any solder flowing. If it’s in your budget I suggest making the bezel out of silver, you’ll have much better luck.

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Hi Cheryl. Thanks for your reply.

I wanted to work with copper first before working with the silver I bought. How does everyone normally pull off a copper bezel, then? I read that silver solder can work for copper bezeling but perhaps not.

Any thoughts on my use of a mini kitchen butane torch? Should I perhaps get something else or can butane work as well as any other gas?

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Copper is hard to solder if you treat it like other jewelry metals. I LOVES oxygen and will create firescale if there is any opportunity.
I posted this in 2003 and it still is good advice.

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You need a torch that produces more heat, especially to solder copper. With copper you should preheat the piece, then get in to the joint, get it done and then get out. Remember that you are trying to get the piece up to a temperature that will transfer enough heat to the solder to make it flow. Just getting the solder up to flow temperature isn’t enough. You will quickly overwhelm your flux with O2 and then scale will appear preventing your solder from flowing. Borax cones and water are a good general purpose flux, but I have learned to use Handy flux for silver or, in a pinch, Batterns. Pickle in what you have, but pH down is a good fast option. A good general purpose torch is a Meco, Hoke or Little Torch on propane and O2. Your best economical bet is O2 from a O2 concentrator. After that, an acetylene plumbers torch will work, but they produce a large, hard to control dirty flame. That being said, I and many of us, used one for years. In the end, as long as the torch produces enough heat, you can make it work. There are many discussions on Ganoksin about torches and O2 concentrators to read. Good luck…Rob

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Hi Angela,

Welcome!

Depending upon the size of your piece, the small butane torch may not get the copper hot enough for the solder to flow. As kreder9277 mentioned, it’s important to heat the metal not the solder. Once the metal reaches the right temp the solder will flow.

You may find that a barrier flux made with a 50/50 ish mix of denatured alcohol and boric acid will produce better coverage vs the mix using water. This will help to temporarily prevent the copper from oxidizing. Keep in mind that your metal has to be clean so that the flux will cover the metal and not bead up. You’ll need a flow flux on the seams where you want solder to flow. The borax cone should be sufficient for this. Your solder should be fluxed as well so it doesn’t oxidize. This could be another reason solder will ball up and not flow.

Gerald mentioned Fred Fenster who developed a Frips formula based off of Prips, which is an all in one flux. It can be brushed or sprayed onto the metal. A search in the archives will offer more detailed info.

A step up from the butane torch is the Orca EZ Torch for Disposable Propane Tanks. The kit comes with several tips, hose and a regulator for a plumbers propane tank. This will get plenty hot. You don’t mention if you have any type of extraction system, which is necessary.

Keep us posted on your progress.
Pam

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Hello,
regarding your dremel, what model did you get?

does it have a flex shaft and handpiece? footpedal? variable speed?

if not, i would suggest considering getting a jewelers flexshaft and a #30 jacobs chuck handpiece. If you can, get one with forward and reverse while you are at it.

or similar…there are a few different brands available…

…i say #30 hand piece because it has an adjustable chuck and will accept more than just 3/32” shafts as quick change handpieces are limited too…

it is beneficial to have a foot pedal, and to be able to control the speed…especially on the lower end…for better bur control, nit overheating (and thus dulling) cutting burs and drills.

i LOVE my Lucas Low Boy #9 rheistat foot pedal, better than the foredom foot pedals

https://lucasdentalcompany.com/photos

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as an alternative, consider a micromotor, by Saeshin or Foredom.

Julie

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Oh this problem takes me back decades. Way back in prehistory when I started, I enrolled at the Appalachian Center for Crafts. We did all of our initial work in copper. Copper likes lots of heat. Over the years I’ve made big and small items out of copper from 3 foot tall quick vessels to small delicate charms. BUT for your torch, doing small jewelry pieces it should work. What you have to learn and comfortable with is how to solder. Without pictures, we can’t give definite help. What surface are you soldering on? Are you concentrating your heat on one spot? Do you keep the flame moving? How long do you heat it? How far from the piece are you working the flame? What part of the flame are you using as the point of contact with the metal? What color does the metal turn as you are heating? How do you place the solder? Does the solder move as you heat the piece up? How long are you heating the piece? So you have a solderite board? How much borax are you mixing into the distilled water? are you heating from below or above the piece? These are all question we need to know so we can better zero in on what you are doing.

Good news, once you learn to control soldering, most of the rest it much easier. It takes practice and more practice. That is why my first professor had us start on copper. Not like when I was learning it now is a bit more expensive, and silver no longer costs less than 4 dollars an ounce in the form you want like sheet or wire.

More info please, and best of Luck, Aggie

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Excellent, thank you Gerald. So happy and grateful to wake up to so many replies this morning. All of you are truly helping me on this beginning journey.

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Aggie,

Oh man! Great questions! I just love that someone is diving in and asking me a million questions. This is the sort of feedback I need!

I can only thank you (and others who commented here) for sparing your precious time with a newbie like me. :hugs: :relieved: I imagine when I’m 15 years into this I will hopefully pay it forward and help others who are just starting out… Well, that is if the world is even in tact then and we’re all still able to do this work. Ahem…

Anyway, to answer your questions! I basically did 2 months of solid research. Mostly I bought college level textbooks and many older “guides” from the 60’s/70’s. I’m one who really wants the real knowledge before diving into something new and don’t want “sugar coated” versions of information. I do not intend on turning this into a little hobbyist effort. I want to jump right in to learning how to do the good stuff.

What surface are you soldering on? Are you concentrating your heat on one spot? Do you keep the flame moving? How long do you heat it? How far from the piece are you working the flame? What part of the flame are you using as the point of contact with the metal? What color does the metal turn as you are heating? How do you place the solder? Does the solder move as you heat the piece up? How long are you heating the piece? So you have a solderite board? How much borax are you mixing into the distilled water? are you heating from below or above the piece? These are all question we need to know so we can better zero in on what you are doing.

I’m using a rotating annealing pan filled with pumice, with a nice charcoal block plopped on top. I tired to purchase the largest “mini” butane torch I could find. I still think its probably not adequate enough as most people here are saying it probably won’t do. Here’s a picture of the largest size my mini gets. That’s maybe 4 inches in length on the flame?

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Yes, I’m moving the flame gradually around the whole of the bezel loop (just trying to do a basic seam before soldering it to the backplate). You’ll see some silver in the picture there, that’s a different story, which I wouldn’t mind telling. A truly funny one I might share, but because of what happened, I immediately stopped working with the silver and decided to try with copper instead.

It seemed to take up to a minute or longer (60-120 seconds plus actually) to get the solder to melt at all with the copper bezel - at that point all it did was ball up into a drop and stop, never truly flowing up the seam. As for what part of the flame I’m using - well, I’m experimenting with all of it. I tried using the tip area at the end of the flame, then when I got frustrated after a minute went by and nothing - I zeroed in on it closer coming to the middle of the flame - thus witnessing a “green” flame effect and the color turn many colors. And, as for how I placed the solder; I placed a tiny 4mm piece or so (hard solder) directly at the bottom of the seam (touching) with the steel soldering pic (in photo). What I DID NOT DO is directly douse the solder in flux in advance, which some have said I should have done. As for the consistency of the borax - Anthony from “the bench” on youtube makes it look so easy, and he’s a master silversmith! All he uses is the “cone”. I used distilled water to avoid minerals interfering, and made a slurry paste consistency. When that didn’t work, I tried making it more watery. I perhaps didn’t clean the copper joinings well enough. They were well sanded and flushed out perfectly. I heated from above on this tiny one because I didn’t think I would need to do it from below when just dealing with a simple circle joining for a stone. I wasn’t yet to the stage of soldering the bezel to the copper backplate.

I will note that taking a “class” isn’t’ really doable because I left the city a long time ago (couldn’t stand the rat race, to say), and have happily been in the country the last ten years. That puts me at 3 hours away from the nearest studios where I would be able to take in person classes. I’m doing as much research as I can on my own. And so, I really do appreciate all of everyone’s help here. More than I can say!

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I have a slightly different take on this than others. I wonder if you have a good flame on your butane torch…one that is a slightly reducing flame ( look this up, there are lots of pictures on line of what it should look like, slightly bushy and not too hissy. Check to make sure you have enough butane. Then make sure you are using the right part of the flame…again, you will see pictures on line of this, you use the tip of the small blue cone…if you get too close or too far away, you don’t have the heat you need to get hot enough to melt the solder or get the copper piece to the right temperature, and your flux is likely to evaporate before you get the solder to melt…in which case, the solder won’t flow, but will just ball up. If I were you I would cut a few snippets of solder and see if you can melt them quickly into balls on a soldering board or charcoal block. That tells you whether you are reaching soldering temp at all. If you can melt solder in 15 seconds or so, you should have enough heat for a small copper bezel. Your post says you are merely soldering a strip of copper, so unless it’s a very large bezel, a butane torch should do it. There are tutorials on line where folks teach soldering using a butane torch, so I don’t think regular size jewelry work (rings, bezels up to 12x20 or so) should be impossible with it. Yes, when you solder, you need to heat the bezel up first, so go round it a few times in a circle and then concentrate the heat more towards the join, but not on the solder snippet, which should be drawn into the joint. There are lots of videos on line of torch flame technique, so watch some. Let us know how you get on!

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@ Julie,

Thanks so much for replying. I’m using the following Dremel : Dremel 4000-4

I was nervous to buy a more expensive rotary shaft - I suppose I figured a regular dremel would work out fine. I will absolutely consider this. I believe the dremel can be converted to a flexshaft with certain attachments? Not sure if that’s worth it to buy the attachment or just buy an entirely new one. I can always sell the dremel I have if needed. The dremel I have does have an adjustable chuck and also adjustable speeds. The lowest being 5,000RPM going all the way up to 35,000.

Angela

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Hi Roy!

I’m super grateful that so many of you are replying and helping me get some valuable understanding/advice here.

To answer many of your questions, please see my reply to Aggie Here

There I posted a picture of my mini butane torch, and added a lot of information about where I might have gone wrong. I was answering all of her questions which are similar to yours… It seems my butane torch isn’t capable of getting that “bushy” look. It does have an adjustable setting, but it can only adjust so much. Its basically just one direct pierced shot forward and that’s about it.

I see… Will have to give it another go this morning. That is, if my butane torch is even adequate. I will probably switch to something else based off of people’s recommendations. The problem is ventilation. My desk it set up about 4 feet away from a storm door - so the best thing I have is leaving the door open for fresh air. I don’t have any other fancy ventilation set up so I’m concerned about using more powerful gasses. Will an open door be enough?

If I were you I would cut a few snippets of solder and see if you can melt them quickly into balls on a soldering board or charcoal block. That tells you whether you are reaching soldering temp at all. If you can melt solder in 15 seconds or so, you should have enough heat for a small copper bezel.

Will do this and get back with you! Its about a 1.5" circle? But will the butane torch be adequate for soldering that to a backplate should I pull off the initial circle seam this morning?

I’ve been looking at plenty of tutorials - I think its pretty clear I’m just going to have to get a better torch. :face_with_diagonal_mouth:

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I’m not a great fan of the #30, if you get a Foredom flexshaft or similar. Yes, you probably need one for the odd sized attachments that are not 3/32 shaft, but I find using that chuck key all the time a pain. Since most of my stuff is 3/32, I got an H.20 quick change handpiece with the lever. I got the one in the yellow box on ebay now for $49.99. It is probably a knock off, but mine has worked OK in part time use. The dremel you have may be fine for some things, but you might want lower rpm for things like setting burs. If you don’t want to go for the Foredom, you may be able to find a dremel type single speed and run it with a speed control or rheostat, altho’ this may shorten its life a little. There are used Foredoms and knockoffs for sale all over the place, and you should be able to get one for about $100 if you don’t mind hunting around. So when you are doing stuff that you think might work better at a slower speed, look for one.

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Good morning Pam,

What a pleasant and kind reply. As I’ve said to others here, I’m so grateful for your time and assistance. I know everyone has a life to live and so taking time out of your day to throw a few tips my way is truly appreciated.

I have read about the 50/50 mix of the denatured alcohol and boric acid as a barrier. Do you use this method? I once read that some people only use this, even for the joins, and seem to be able to solder with no other flux other than this mixture. What do you personally use? Also, is this toxic?

When you say extraction system, do you mean adequate ventilation? Someone else asked about this - sadly I don’t have any ventilation other than the fact my desk is deliberately set up by a storm door. I leave that wide open when working. Is that going to be good enough? I am likely to upgrade to a propane tank and the Orca tip system, that sounds like the ticket to me. Propane isn’t too toxic to breathe in from time to time, as far as I know.

Thanks again for taking time for a newbie like myself.

Angela

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So, I just did this - nope - it took 45 seconds to a minute, and that’s with the butane torch turned on full blast. Even if I pulled the torch in close it still took almost a minute to complete. I tried it with hard solder. Okay, propane torch purchase is in order today!

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Hi,

take a moment and search the forum for flux(es)
lots of good information…i suggest searching Prips/ Pripps flux…those conversations often include other fluxes…

generally speaking:

you have what i call flow flux…it helps the solder flow, a wetting action, keeps the area free of oxides, for a period of time, blocking ixygen, as well as by absorbing (?) the oxides, until it us saturated and can absorb no more…it changes color as this occurs…experience and learn the color changes of various fluxes

then you have what i call barrier fluxes, that are more formulated to protect the surface of the metal while you are heating it

i believe the Prips (barrier) flux “marries time and heat”
boric acid, borax, tsp, water

one of the “b”’s extends working time, one allows for higher working heat…combined you get the benefits of both

i forget what the benefit of the tsp is…

to apply Prips, you gently heat the piece, and when you spray it on, it should immediately frost over. the spraying of it takes experimentation to get it right (i was using a spray bottle that had a “halo” spray pattern…no spray in the middle!!!..so the puece was untouched amy soldering board was getting saturated!

then you have the all in one liquid fluxes, that ate both flow and barrier fluxes…

happy searching and learning!

in addition to asking questions, and getting current replies, this forum has a wealth of information, on many topics, accumulated over time, that is near priceless!

julie

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hi,
heat is at tip of inner blue cone…was that on the metal?

julie

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