Jeweler Fights Off Robbers
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-110705shoot_lat,0,3128471.story
Any better alternatives ?
Robb
Alternative to what?
I just spoke to the shopowners close friend. the shopowner took the
gun away from one of the robbers as they were about to shoot him (his
words). In some ways he got lucky-In others he was prepared. the man
is an experienced shooter.
Jewelry shop security is nearly a forbidden subject when we include
real self defense tools like firearms. Several magazines have
declined on that basis when I wrote an extensive article years ago.
“its too negative a subject” or 'we have liability concerns about
discussing gun use in our magazine".
Alarms and safes are not the end of this topic by any means…
It’s a shame, good training can avoid terrible trouble and increase
the odds of survival. I train people in self defense with or without
firearms pretty regularly. Carrying gold many years ago convinced me
to train properly.
My first rule-Give up the goods and defend yourself or human life
only! If the robbers are being violent you can and probably should
fight for your life. My main point-Its never a good idea to fight to
the death for money or merchandise.
I train jewelry industry folks at no charge for my time. We share a
need to be careful. Anyone who would like to see the I do
publish is welcome to it for free. just email me off
Orchid-Daniel@preciousmetalswest.com
Daniel Ballard
PMWest
and Full Spectrum Self Defense
Oh my god, that’s really scary as it is one of the stores where I
purchase beads!
I know this isn’t an answer to your question, but it brings up
another thing I’ve thought about… I often worry about walking to
my car after making purchases in downtown LA. What’s to stop someone
from robbing me at gunpoint if they’ve been tracking me as I
purchase precious stones and pick up gold castings? It’s a very scary
world out there.
Amery
Well, in a perfect world, there would be no robbers. Sad about the
hand wound to the shop owner, and sad that gunplay had to be
utilized.
Sad, as well, that one potentially repentant life is no more. The
seriously injured second robber, hopefully, will look upon this
situation as a chance to mend his/her ways.
Before I break into a chorus of “Will the Circle Be Unbroken”, I’ll
retire.
Out of 14 people on my staff, there are 6 hand guns and 1 pistol
grip shotgun, there are times when I carry my 9mm on my side, so that
it is visible, we all are proficient in the use of these weapons, I
wish I had a better answer and I pray we never have to be in that
kind of situation, but we live in that kind of world. I was
burglarized for 1/2 million in 82, and it took me 11 years to pay it
back to suppliers and clients, I will do my best to keep that from
happening again. Paul Bensel
another thing I've thought about... I often worry about walking to my car after making purchases in downtown LA. What's to stop someone from robbing me at gunpoint if they've been tracking me as I purchase precious stones and pick up gold castings? It's a very scary world out there.
The first and best thing to deter someone from tracking you and
robbing you as you describe is to PAY ATTENTION!
Be observant, and aware of your surroundings, this by itself tends
to make you a less attractive target. Watch for people loitering
around the entrance to the shop who do not appear to have any reason
to be there. If it feels wrong, go back in the shop for a bit.
Robbers tend to target those who appear distracted and unaware of
their surroundings. Also those who are visibly scared or ill at ease
in their surroundings.
This is not a 100% guarantee, but it will greatly improve your
chances.
Be well, and safe.
Lee
well, it was a long hard fight here in ohio but we finally have
concealed carry law wich sadly isn’t the right to actually use said
weapon of choice best regards goo
I definately believe in having protection at the store. When I had
an armed robbery, it took the cops 10 minutes to get there after the
panic buttons were pushed. I am contemplating carring a small 32 all
the time, I’ve not done that because it seems to throw the customers
off kilter a little bit. The 45’s and the 9’s are just too bulky to
carry around and look the professional type (IMHO). I do have those
strategically placed in the store though. My Rottweiler seems like
the best protection though… sweet to the little old ladies but
definately present to the other folks.
Stanley Bright
A&M Jewelers
Baltimore, MD
Good story. Take note all, that you have the right to protect
yourself and that the police do not have to protect you. The supreme
court ruled that the job of the police is to "maintain public order."
That does not have to include protecting you. If you feel that you
need to protect yourself and it is legal in your city or state, get
some training in the use of your weapon. You can have a firearm in
your home and place of business. If you need to carry it on you, take
a CCW (concealed carry weapon) class. The class isn’t very expensive,
and you can do it in one day. You then apply with the city police or
sheriff. Above all, be careful with your weapon. A gun is a tool just
like any other tool we use, it’s job is to put holes in things.
Tom
While often I sit and lurk on subjects I can be of insight here.
Over 18 years in the jewelry industry I have experience a few things
in regards to firearms and robberies. A few years ago I was managing
a jewelry store and had a man in a mask come in had me duct tape
everyone and kneel. “He” then had me do the usual open safe, take the
cash and threaten to kill me and my family. He wanted the video tape
and unfortunately the company I worked for only believed in fake
cameras. (Very stupid!) I offered to rip the fake camera of the wall
and show him. He left and we all lived 5 or 6 of us in the store. Now
here it goes, I have concealed carry permits in a few states and a
part time peace officer. So I ask myself would I handle being robbed
differently? “Probly no?” No diamond or gem is worth my life or the
bad guys life. When you make that final decision to pull the trigger
your life will change forever no matter if it is self defense or
protecting “stuff”. Do I carry a weapon? Yep. Would I use it and not
hesitate if I had to? Yep. Would your mind go through hell if you
killed the bad guy in self defense? yep. I know the tough guy would
say “No way!” If he is going to kill me I am going to live and yes I
agree. But you will deal with it forever in some form not to mention
the civil suit from the family… See even the bad guys have a mommy
who thinks there son or daughter could have never be the bad guy…
If I was robbed again I would give them what they want, that’s what
insurance is for, but if I feel anyone’s life is in total danger we
as jewelers have an arsenal of weapons not in any order… Mandrels,
pepper spray, our voice and sales ability, cameras, alarm systems,
code words, video tapes fake, video tapes, safes to stop bullets,
barrette files, hot steamers, hot ultrasonic, cell phones on 911 to
your car, and of course firearms. There can be a time to fight for
your life and then you better fight in every way you can whether it
is biting kicking scratching there eyes out or shooting them. Just
remember diamonds don’t breathe people, co workers and the lady your
stray bullet hit in the building next door do. See bad guys have no
rules only the rest of us do. Hope any of you read the book by Masad
Ayob “In the gravest extreme” before carrying a weapon, than please
do I have carried for years and always will…
Very respectively,
Chip
now on to something to lighten the mood about fire arms. i personally
vouch the following actually occurred during a small arms course
offered and run by orange county’s excellent sheriff’s department. we
were all seated and holding our clip-less and cylinderl-ess small
arms when one of the women, cradling her little chromed .38 revolver,
asked the lieutenant running the class, “how do i get it to ejaculate
the shells?” it took a few minutes for everyone to finally stop
laughing, coughing and wiping tears, and then ‘someone’ (a nameless,
mystery person who will not own up to it) instructed her to “stroke
the barrel for a few minutes” about 5 seconds before the lieutenant
yelled “class dismissed!”
ive
if you can find a law enforcement agency offering a small arms class
it is well worth the time and effort and you don’t have to worry
about getting in a group with the two attendees quoted above, we
both got our certificates.
I quite entirely was able to relate to the jeweler. My training was
very simple when it came to firearms. Mostly in the defense from said
arms as I prefer non-armed combat, however if need be I can use
several weapons including pistols. I am a dead aim with a squirt
bottle ask my cats! ;p
I knew immediately why he was shot in the hand. The two things I was
taught were
-
the gun ALWAYS goes off forget hollywood!
-
Sacrfice your hand by grabbing the gun and make sure you are
aware of where the bullet will go when the gun goes off since it is
unlikely you will be up against a gun with a visible hammer
action (the sensitive fleshy part of your hand between the thumb and
forefinger shoved in there will prevent hammer from connecting if you
are lucky)
Oh and yes I was taught to use the pain to aid my chi blows whilst I
beat the crap out of the criminal.
Bottom line is that is the last absolute response the first always
is to avoid a fight give them anything they want save another persons
or your own life.
At this age it would be a crippling effort to protect life with
martial arts as I am old outta shape and ridden worse for wear.
Of course I would have surprise on my side lol Just picturing some
punks face when grandma chi aiii’s him lol
Peace
Teri
An American Cameo Artist
www.cameoartist.com
So I ask myself would I handle being robbed differently? "Probly no?" No diamond or gem is worth my life or the bad guys life. When you make that final decision to pull the trigger your life will change forever no matter if it is self defense or protecting "stuff".
Thank you for this. People who want to carry guns in case of a
robbery should do some self-examination and ask themselves if they
can really end a life without hesitation or remorse. To have a gun
and pull it, if you are not fully prepared to end a life, is just not
prudent- your drawing could escalate the situation, and your
hesitation could get you killed, possibly with your own gun.
The first “move” my sensei taught me, years ago, is the slow draw of
the wallet from the back pocket followed by the gracious handover of
the wallet to the guy with the gun. Cash, gold and diamonds are
replaceable, whereas death, unlike diamonds, really IS forever,
according to most medical experts.
Lee
So I ask myself would I handle being robbed differently? "Probly no?" No diamond or gem is worth my life or the bad guys life. When you make that final decision to pull the trigger your life will change forever no matter if it is self defense or protecting "stuff".
I remember reading something in a trade publication a few years ago
on this subject.
It may have been something from the JBT. It stated that studies have
shown that in robberies where jewelers have a gun, that in the
majority of cases, the jeweler ends up injured or dead.
The advice was that you were better off without a gun.
Joel
Joel Schwalb
@Joel_Schwalb
The gun is in your hand, your finger is on the trigger. For the first
time, the enormity of it hits you - if I squeeze the trigger, I will
take a life. CAN I DO THIS AWFUL THING ? If you have to STOP AND
THINK THIS THROUGH, the predators knife or bullet will pierce your
body far quicker than you can resolve that deep, philosophical
question. Only a FOOL will have a gun for protection, unless you
have already asked yourself that question. If the answer ISN’T YES, I
CAN and Will PULL THE TRIGGER, you should not have a gun. If you
think pointing a gun just to scare a criminal/predator is going to
work – your gun will get you into more trouble than it will ever get
you out of.
Shirl
@skc6
I just found this thread on Orchid & totally agree with Chip Stone.
This is what every jeweler/salesperson dreads. I have been in the
commercial end for almost 30 years and had my encounter in a retail
store where I worked part-time. It was broad daylight-noontime and
my “guys” were part of the Crips & Bloods from LA. It was 2 weeks
after the Rodney King riots and the first guy was dressed up in a
real security guard uniform. Under the ruse of a watch battery
change, he reached down into his pocket. Out came an object and both
hands were on a.357 magnum gun (silver colored). The weapon was aimed
right at me, not more than 16 " or so. He said get down & that’s
exactly what I did, along with an older sales staff member. I tried
to blend with the walls & floor. As he passed me, he even pushed my
head down as a reminder. If I had tried to defend us, we would be
dead because I had no way of knowing about the other 4 guys, coming
in from behind. As pros, they were more concerned about the Rolexes &
a few pieces of jewelry but could easily have been provoked into
shooting, they were very serious… All my training has taught me–do
what is told to you, co-operate etc. As police have told me since
then, if you do shoot, aim to kill or you will suffer the
consequences. Now, behind a two way mirror were both bosses and son.
They hit the silent alarm but the police did not come for a full 2
minutes, since they (the alarm co.) did not want a hostage situation
and withheld the from the cops. That day I learned then
that if this happens-it’s just you & the criminal…To this day I am
glad I followed directions…Two minutes may be short but not when
your nose is under the muzzle of a gun…It seems like a lifetime.
Sincerely, Jo-Ann
Maggiora Donivan
To Joel Schwalb–
I would like to see the studies to which you refer. The most
thoroughly researched study I have seen is a book by John Lott
called “More Guns Less Crime.” It comes to a very different
conclusion, as you can tell by the title. While I am not a statistics
expert, I studied it enough to have a pretty good grasp of the topic
and I couldn’t punch holes in his research. I was twice the victim of
violent crime in a city–Chicago–with strong gun control. Now I
live in Georgia and I am happy to have a concealed lcarry permit for
my snub nose 357. I want a fighting chance next time and no, I would
not have a problem with pulling the trigger.
Linda
Linda Holmes-Rubin
ForCapital Associates of Atlanta
Phone: 770-479-7837
Fax: 770-720-7555
General comments:
In general, an experienced person can pull a gun and shoot a bad guy
holding a gun on him before the bad guy can react and shoot. The
innocent person only has to say to himself pull and shoot. The bad
guy has to recognize that there is an action of his opponent,
evaluate that action, determine what to do then react. The difference
in reaction times gives the knowledgeable victim the advantage.
However the victim must have made up the mind he will shoot the bad
guy. Without that decision the victim should not plan on using a gun.
Period!!!
A kick to the bad guys groin will have no affect if he is on drugs.
A proper kick to the knee will disable the bad guy. If the situation
warrants it the eyes and throat are also good targets. One must
remember that if their life is being threatened the bad guy should be
considered no more that a snake and any action, no matter how
vicious, should be taken by the victim to save their life.
Our self defense laws basically say that you are not allowed to
react with any more force than is being applied by the bad guy. One
must do what they can to get away from the bad situation. However if
your life is threatened and you have no way to escape you have to
react. Unfortunately it may be tool late to defend yourself if you
wait to determine the force the bad guy is going to apply.
It would not hurt to take a self defense class.
Lee Epperson
Do I carry a weapon? Yep. Would I use it and not hesitate if I had to? Yep. Would your mind go through hell if you killed the bad guy in self defense? yep.
I would like to be able to say/think that I would shoot someone to
protect the lives of myself or others, but the fact is, I’m pretty
sure I would die before I would kill someone. The thing that gets me
is, there are non-letal weapons out there (taser, and the like) and
others could be developed, but they aren’t legal, at least here in
Illinois. I can legally own and carry a handgun, but not a stun gun.
I think that a non-lethal way to “shoot first and ask questions
later” is exactly what home-owners, store-owners, and jewelers need.
Why is there not demand for effective, non-lethal means of
self-defense? Even potent pepper-spray is not technically legal here
for non-peace officers-- though I suspect that one is as likely to
immobilize onesself as an attacker using sprays. I want an
effective, legal stun gun to carry!
–Noel
I really like these comments. Just have one addition, if I ever have
to use leathal force to survive. Notice I said to live NOT protect
stuff “I would rather be Judge by 12 than carried by 6…” Think
about it.
Respectively,
Chip