Noel you make an excellent point. Its quite an upside down world
where you find lethal weapons quite available “less lethal” and “non
lethal” alternatives being a felony for a civilian to possess.
Why is the taser gun or full strength tear gas illegal for nearly
all of us? Fear of misuse. Isn’t that what we fear most about any
dangerous machinery, guns, cars etc?
After many years on the road, a few owning and running a jewelry
store and many days spent in an office in the jewelry district, I too
have conclusions about security.
And that is exactly what you should have done. Just because you
are carrying, does not mean you should draw your weapon. These
thieves were after stuff, stuff can be replaced, lives cannot. If
they started shooting people, at that point you have no choice but
to draw and shoot when you have the opportunity.
They hit the silent alarm but the police did not come for a full
2 minutes, since they (the alarm co.) did not want a hostage
situation and withheld the from the cops.
That was WRONG, the police are the ones to make that determination,
not them. The alarm company did not know what was going on, the perps
could have been shooting everyone in sight and the police could have
stopped it. If the police were there, they could have ID’ed the
thieves and caught them later without risking lives unnecessarily. I
would loose that alarm co. that fast.
If you have ever taken a Mace class or practiced martial arts you
would be informed by your teacher/sensai that none of these
applications are effective against a gun pointed at you. One makes
their own last resorts.
So, not only are you faced with the awful decision of whether you
would be able to shoot a crook, but are you willing to empty your
gun into that person to assure they won't come back and sue you?
Yikes!
I don’t know guys, this whole “kill the crook” thing sounds way out
of control. Somehow a large part of the civilized world manages to
function quite nicely without all the gunplay. I’m disheartened to
hear that you folks have to live in that kind of a threatening
environment… and quite relieved that I don’t.
Being in a robbery situation some years ago, and living to tell about
it is one thing that I have done right in my life. Late at night the
store was about to close. The store was empty of customers, and we
where straightening up for the next day. This guy came in and in a
low,soft voice said everybody this is a robbery,and if you do as I
say you go home tonight.Out came the gun. He got us all together and
asked for the keys to the cases.He put the people I worked with in
the bathroom,and had me open the cases,and dump merchandise in a
bag.All the time having a gun in my side. I lived because I listened.
KEY WORD LISTEN. At the time of a robbery the most important thing to
do is live.Dont be a hero. John Wayne had many takes when he would
shoot the bad guy. In life there are none.
I am a marksman with a gun,and have studied marshal arts since I was
six years old. This robbery happened when I was thirty four. I love
reading the responses, Just shoot if you can. Throw a mandrel. My
best advice do as they say.Go home and kiss your wife,husband kids,
dog, cat, mother, father,and say thank you before you close your
eyes at night.
All of these facts and fiction depend on what state your store is
within. Also what each state defines as deadly forece. For instance,
in Texas if you are within your store or sidewalk and are threatened
with a knife or gun, you can drop him or her right there. Even in
your car. If the perp is going out the door, shoot him. But if you
have a concealed weapons license and plan to carry a fire arm you
had best make up your mind that you can kill or wound another person
and practice with it until you are proficient with its use, not to
just carry around. Once you pull that weapon and you hesitate it will
get you hurt. I have heard people say that they don’t want to hurt
anyone and that once that gun is out it will scare someone, not
always the case.
I’ve been reading this entire thread and was attempting to stay out
of it because I know how fanatical most gun owners in the United
States are but I’m going to have to jump in because a lot of what is
being said is just ridiculously over the top. First of all, the
statistics DO show that the odds are that you (a jeweler) will be
hurt or killed if you brandish a weapon in a hold up. Don’t believe
me? Go check out what Jewelers Mutual says about it. They track this
quite closely as it directly impacts their payouts on
claims. Also check out what the Jewelers Security Alliance says about
it. You may think you are safer with a gun but you aren’t. And
neither are your customers who are likely to get hurt in any showdown
at the OK Corral (and who have every right to sue you if they are).
The thing to do is what one of the recent posters said which is: do
exactly as you are told. Keep a low profile, note any distinguishing
characteristics of the criminals (discreetly, don’t stare at them)
and wait until after they leave to hit the panic button. This is what
all of the jewelry industry security organizations recommend. I’m
sure all of you cowboys feel safer packing and more power to you if
it does, but just remember that it won’t actually save you in most
situations.
More importantly than anything having to do with a gun, however, is
that you need to deal with your security situation in such a way that
a criminal is simply going to be too discouraged to attempt to rob
you. You need to set up various perimeters of defenses, suitable to
your unique situation (someone in a city is going to need different
protections than someone in a mall), that make the criminals aware
that there has to be an easier target to hit than you. This can
involve locks on doors, guards, dogs on the premises (I like the guys
who have tarantulas in their cases), multiple, extremely visible
security cameras, one way mirrors, highly visible sophisticated alarm
systems, and most importantly a well trained staff who are educated
about how to spot suspicious characters and people casing your
premises (almost every robbery is preceded by the criminals, or
someone they know, casing the stores) and also know how to respond to
the situation. If you have a locking door, you CAN refuse entry to
people you don’t want in your store. If you know you’ve been cased
(because you have a well trained staff who’s reported the problem)
you can let the police know ahead of time and you can be prepared to
refuse entry to people who are suspicious. While you may not be able
to prevent a junkie who is simply looking for a way to get his next
fix from holding you up, most criminals look for an easy hit. The
more things you do to make it look hard, the more likely they’ll go
elsewhere to ply their trade.
Incidentally, I hope you all noted the poster who reported that his
employer was broken into at night and all they took was the guns.
Guns that are now out on the street and will be used to rob YOU. And
that’s a really good reason for limiting some of the rampant gun
possession that is allowed in this country.
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
617-2344392
Guns, like religion, abortion, and politics is a much debated
subject. No one is going to win this debate and no one is going to
change anyone's mind. Can we get back to jewelry? Please!
Richard, I don’t think of this as a debate or an effort to change
people’s minds (any more than, say, discussions on what solvents to
use…). I am interested in hearing people’s philosophies and
experiences on the topics related to fighting off robbers, as much
as they care to share. It’s not a topic I recall having seen before
on Orchid.
Personal safety is just that - personal. You are responsible for
your own safety. Police, guards, guns, and anything else will not
properly pritect you if you are not aware that safety is your
responsiblity. Being vigilant and aware of your surroundings, sizing
up your current situation, and acting appropriately are your
responsibility.
Once you are caught in a situation where you have no other options
to do but what the criminal wants you to do, you have failed in your
personal responsibility and will suffer the consequences of the
criminals actions. You want safety - be responsible.
Once you are caught in a situation where you have no other options
to do but what the criminal wants you to do, you have failed in
your personal responsibility and will suffer the consequences of
the criminals actions. You want safety - be responsible.
I disagree while there is a great amount you can do to assure
personal safety there is no such thing as perfect. I do not agree
that it is a failure of personal responsibility. Sometimes you can do
everything humanly possible and you still get burned. Life isn’t fair
saying that you can control all of your interactions with your
environment and such is just not true and a bit deluded.
I am responsible for my own actions no one elses. If someone choses
to commit a crime against me I can only try to be prepared and bottom
line survive. Just my 2 cents worth being a survivor.
My last post on this thread-A quote or two got my attention
but I'm going to have to jump in because a lot of what is being
said is just ridiculously over the top.
In my opinion it is wrong to belittle different conclusions. Your
decision may not be right for me. Vice versa of course.
Incidentally, I hope you all noted the poster who reported that
his employer was broken into at night and all they took was the
guns. Guns that are now out on the street and will be used to rob
YOU. And that's a really good reason for limiting some of the
rampant gun possession that is allowed in this country.
I must wonder if the guns were as well secured as the gems and gold.
The presence of those guns makes me more likely to be better
prepared which in my case does include guns.
First of all, the statistics DO show that the odds are that you (a
jeweler) will be hurt or killed if you brandish a weapon in a hold
up. Don't believe me? Go check out what Jewelers Mutual says about
it.
At best that is an oversimplification. My question about the above
quote is just what do you do when robbers get intensely violent
despite cooperating? Your customers are at least as vulnerable. We
all face the potential threat in our own way. None of us wants to do
anything to risk ourselves or our customers. Organizations may or
may not be fully honest about the statistics of violence. No
organization dares to approve of gun use, the liability is huge.
Imagine the liability incurred if Jewelers Mutual was to endorse
guns in stores, even by trained people. Insurance companies are very
worried about liability. How highly do you value these statistics in
a “politicaly correct” and liability averse environment?
What about the overall decline in crime on jewelers but an INCREASE
in violence? That was published in National Jeweler just a year or
two ago. Is a gun a bad idea in the context of armed security too?
Perhaps ex Police officers? As stated by many posters here the
defense of Last Resort (guns, fleeing or fighting) is all about
stopping a violent attack, not the taking of goods. In my opinion
that can hardly be overstated.
The story from law enforcement officers here in Los Angeles is that
the owner at “Lucky Gems” took a gun away from one of the bad guys
as he was told to get down into an “execution” position. He then
defended himself under fire from the other robber. Now he could be
right or wrong but what do you do if they start shooting? Would you
continue to cooperate? A robber who has killed will often kill
again.
I would contend that fighting or fleeing is worthwhile if and when
violence occurs. I learned above the above from nearly thirty years
in the jewelry business and about twenty training in self defense.
That includes a police instructor from San Fernando PD, and
consultations with legal experts here in California. I have put many
hours into research and my only wish is for each of us to carefully
consider options and act accordingly.
How highly do you value these statistics in a "politicaly correct"
and liability averse environment?
Ok, I notice that while you went after the statistics Jewelers
Mutual uses, you managed to ignore the ones that the Jewelers
Vigilance Committee cites in their recommendations that jewelers not
carry guns. The JVC has no vested interest in the finances of these
actions. Perhaps you might want to disprove the statistics to us by
actually collecting the data necessary to defend your position.
What about the overall decline in crime on jewelers but an
INCREASE in violence?
Actually a lot of the reason for the decline in crime was the new
FBI task force that was set up a number of years ago in conjunction
with the JVC who lobbied very heavily to get them to pay as much
attention to crimes against the jewelry industry (where the average
loss is extremely high) as they do to bank robberies (where the
average loss is very low).
However all of this missed the crux of my argument which is that IF
you set up proper protocols, follow proper anticrime procedures and
pay attention to your surroundings, your odds of being held up drop
dramatically. If you make it too difficult for a criminal to walk
into your shop with a gun then your own need to defend yourself from
violence drops dramatically. When you make it look easy for them,
it’s like putting up a welcome mat. Is any of this a guarantee
against being held up? No, but then there isn’t a guarantee that some
nut case won’t walk up behind you on the street and put a bullet in
your head before you can draw whatever weapon you might or might not
be carrying, or that you’ll get hit by a bus tomorrow. Neither of
these reasons, in my mind, creates a need for a gun, that might be
used against you, or that might spur someone else on to use theirs
against you (especially the bus since you’d need a rocket launcher to
stop that {- ; ).
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
617-234-4392 @Daniel_R_Spirer