Otto Frei shows the Knew Concepts saw on line. Part # 149.663 for $385…Rob
There was some mention of motorized saws…I have a Hegner variable speed scroll saw which is pretty much the top of the heap to scroll saw people. Either the Hegner or the Exacaliber is considered the best, depending on who you talk to. I have never tried cutting metal with it, but I know it is done, and, of course, there is a tilting table for whatever angle is needed. I wonder what your thoughts would be on this saw or if anyone has used it for cutting either jewelry metals (silver, gold) or steel for things like dies.
I just noticed that Otto Frei shows the automatic saw Part # 149.669, for $2,078…Rob
Thank you so much, how exciting! Should be fun!
There’s been some discussion of scroll saws in this context some years ago; Jesse Brennan did some serious looking-into and posting about it. The basic drawbacks for them for pancakes is the short stroke , and the high speed (so dial it down). I tried some-or-other quality scroll saw about 25 years ago, on one huge die, and it didn’t go too badly. I can’t say with much certainty, having never used one for delicate work on metal , but I have always assumed that the jewelers saw method would work much better for detail , using small jewelers saw blades . Obviously, my experience is obscenely extensive with small jewelers blades , cutting detail, and that works for me, so I’ve never had any reason to use a scroll saw for such sawing . My motor saw works great , so , you know , “it aint broke…” . I’d expect a good scroll saw to do okay using larger jewelers blades, on simple shapes (like the one I did 25 years ago) and the arm-saving aspect would be nice for larger dies .
Dar 
Yes, the KC Manual saw from Otto Frei
http://www.ottofrei.com/Knew-Concepts-Precision-Saw-Guide-MK3_2
made " no sense … none at all " (Talking Heads) that it was off the market .
Thank goodness for The Internets 
DS 
I’m really mystified. Why aren’t jewelers using conventional blanking dies? They’re widely used by blacksmiths who tell me that they are easy to make. I’ve been looking at pancake dies for a long time and the look both difficult to make and to have a whole symphony of problems to getting them right. With all the small milling machines out there, sch as the Sherline, which are not huge budget breakers and can be programmed by CNC (if you are a computer whonk) it would seem the tool to use. This tooling works just as well in Bonny Doon or home made hydraulic presses and you don’t need a screw press for it. I think there are only two things holding jewelers back from adopting it: 1) There’s a mystique that its difficult to learn. Given the difficult metal working many jewelers do, this shouldn’t hold them back for a minutes 2) Lack of instruction. this is the real problem. there doesn’t seem to be any instruction out there aimed at jewelers telling them how to make conventional blanking dies.
Which leads me to my question: does anyone know of any instruction aimed at jewelers and watchmakers (I’m one) on making blanking dies? I would really like to make my own watch hands, and this is an excellent way.
Hi,
Sure, there’s a mystique , but also the technological disinterest, or lack of interest in getting involved with those because of the seemingly high-tech nature of them . If people don’t know it’s “easy” , they’ll think it’s hard, I guess. I do , and if that’s partially though ignorance, well , that is what it is. However, I don’t think conventional tooling is automatically better, easier , and it’s not cheaper . Not everyone is a computer wonk, and even with programs that make it eaiser, it can be a real p.i.t.a. to create a toolpath for a complex design . Also, some really intricate designs are just better as pancake dies (hand made, heat treated) because of the level of detail that you can get using a jewelers saw, vs. CNC tooling , as far as what you can safely get away with . I’m no expert, but wire edm machines can get a lot of detail , more than milling machines , I think. The problems I’ve read about with conventional dies on intricate designs is about backing up (supporting) fragile areas. You have to use really thick steel , whereas a pancake die doesn’t have the backing-up issues because they don’t get set up with drop-through holes that the part falls through. The whole design , male & female parts of the die, are always fully supported .
I just have to question how well conventional die sets really do transfer down to the individual maker/user , with more complex designs. Sure , I can see simple shapes being relatively easy to make. Another thing is ease of use : there’s no mounting or die shoes with pancakes, so if you have conventional die sets , you have to mount them each time you want to use them, or have each die set pre-mounted in it’s own die shoe, so convenience/setup time is an issue .
Anyway, I’m not saying your “proposition” isn’t without merit, but those are things that come to mind right away . Could be that conventional sets work better on some "fragile " shapes, too , for all I know . But I do think a lot of it (lack of jewelers doing it) is about the perceived (and real) technological leaps they/we don’t feel comfortable with, or simply don’t know about .
One more thing : even hardened tool steel pancakes are overkill for many “hobbyist” jewelry makers ; or folks who only need very small runs. How much more overkill , then, is a conventional die set ? (in many situations) .
Dar
I don’t recall any discussion about using a lubricant on a pancake die. I am inclined to lubricate any two metal surfaces that pass by each other, probably to excess. I am thinking of the dry stick lubricant that you use on circle punch dies. Any thoughts?..Rob
Hi Bill,
your mystified you say, read my post on this thread of the 6th Feb. That gives you an idea of how a production shop, was/is set up this side of the pond, back in the 1880’s. You also say for blacksmiths, its easy.I know lots of b/smiths and they by and large dont use dies in the press shop way.
Further more you dont understand why jewellers dont use conventional punch and die sets.
Their name gives it away because there primarily one off fabricators and stone setters whereas a production shop is set up to produce 100’s of components. a bench jeweller is not.
Dar’s last reply puts the case for pancake dies, but I dont see him nor any other p die user being able to produce with ease!
with his pancake dies whereas i can and do 300 an hour with simple open tooling and a screw or fly press hand operated in metal up to 1/10th in thick and up to 1in dia.
As for complex shapes the Victorians made superb complex
shapes in steel by hand. Have lots of them.
Nuf said
Ted
Hey Rob,
One big reason not to use lube is that it can gunk up your press and dies. The gunk will collect dust , and while gunk and dust aren’t necessarily a huge problem (wipe-solved) , it becomes counterproductive to have to keep wiping out the inside of the press, and the dies, because you’d need to. That’s because gunk or film will cause parts to stick to dies , stock metal to stick to the platens, and also parts to platens , and any loose bits of scrap to stick in the press too. All inconvenient at best, and
destructive at worst . Metal left stuck in the press can imprint the next metal being pressed, and even possibly cause damage to a die .
For those reasons, I don’t use anything but a food-grade silicone spray lube . I’ve also heard of people using a light spray oil, which I avoid for the above reasons, or a spray that dries on more permanently, which I have not tried .
Dar
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Ted, I have to agree . Not that there wouldn’t be a place for conventional dies in some jewelry shops , but the comparison of ease-of-making just falls heavily on the side of pancakes. For many individuals trying the process out, it really is about as simple as
grabbing a piece of steel and sawing. Yes, you have to do a few things just right , but no expensive tools are absolutely necessary (just a tilting bench pin or whatever) . That’s miles simpler than any level of programming , machining, and assembly needed for a die set .
Some bigger jewelry manufactures do have their own tool shops, and have no real need (or think they don’t ) for something as low-tech as a pancake die . Maybe for prototyping and testing designs before investing in a “real” die set , but a shop with conventional tooling capability also has the mindset of using what they have , because they know it, and it’s “easy” for them , so they don’t think or know that something like what I offer is useful or worth bothering with. Kind of the flip-flop of why small shops don’t make their own conventional dies.
Dar
PS : I just got off the phone with a guy for whom I’m making a tiny die for a contact piece in a switch module . Last thing he asks after we finalize details is if I thought making a die set would be better. I said "maybe, but it’s not up my alley , so it’s more trouble than it’s worth ". That’s the beauty of pancakes : they ARE much simpler and easier to make than 2-piece die sets , even when you make hard ones . The alignment is essentially automatic, and no special mounting is needed . Always seemed like a no-brainer to me , and with a jewelry background (high school machine shop, no engineering ) , the jump to pancakes, but not further, has been
the most natural path to follow.
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Hi,
Not really, just for lube, but it’s dry here . In humid climates, it’s a good idea to use something for rust prevention , even WD-40, and then wipe the dies down . You know, leaving just enough on to do the job, and do some lube too . Generally, I don’t use lube ;
usually the reason I do is on dies that are extremely tight, and sometimes when parts want to stay in the die and not fall out (different from being stuck because they aren’t cut through properly). Every so often a die wants to hold on to it’s parts, and when I knock the die on the press, the parts can go flying, so the silicone lessens that problem in that situation.
Dar
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Hi Dar, I agree too with you , for the bench jeweler who wants to do say a dozen of something.
However ease of making? I make my own dies, for open tooling not the true die sets that are really for automatic feed crank press use. thats the top end of this game.
If I need say an odd size round die, i chuck a 3 by 3in by 3/4in piece of 01, drill and bore it with the right taper. Heat cherry red quench in oil , temper. its done. time 30 mins. Then the punch also from 01 bar, turned to size with say 5 tho clearance, Weld stick MMA not TIG. to some 1in by 8tpi threaded rod, half hardened and im ready to run off hundreds of blanks. Ytime? another 30 mins. But how many bench jewellers have a nice Le Blond 15 by 30 in lathe (1942!) plus proper welding kit etc?
The real dividing line is,
1.thickness to be blanked
2. total no needed.
each to his own. My work does need production runs of hundreds so however elegant a p die is it wouldn be suitable for my w/shop.
I dont fabricate as such, nor cast, all my work is wrought, minting, forging etc.
I just love BIG hammers!
Ted
The nature of conventional blanking dies is not high tech. A few replies down you have someone who has inherited an entire 19th Century shop full of them. There were no computers in the 19th Century and tempering and annealing was pretty much “by guess and by golly” in the average shop. Knowing how to sink dies was part of a jewelers education then. You have misunderstood my posts. CNC is an option we have today, but it’s just as easy to do with jewelry saws and files.
The technology of pancake dies–originally developed for the aircraft industry, I’ve heard --and conventional blanking dies is different but complementary. There are many cases where it is easier to make a conventional blanking dies–or even buy tooling from a jewelry house to do it. For example, circle cutting punch sets (male and female set up) are widely available from almost every jewellery supply house and they entirely belie the impression that you are trying to give that this is a type of tooling that is entirely beyond the comprehension and fabricating ability of the average jeweler.
As for needing shoes to mount the dies in and the set up needed you would find in a black smith’s shop or somewhere using a screw press, I for one question whether something that elaborate is needed for much of the repetitive shape making some jewelers want to do. In fact you need very little tooling.
I’ve seen blanking dies set up to produce watch hands by blanking them from thin pieces of metal (1.2 mm thick) on slightly modified watch crystal presses. These are used for pushing plastic lens into watch cases. There was no shoe, and probably the tool and the die were just held in place by screws. So it doesn’t have to be difficult. The factory I was in told me their blanking dies were home made and that many watch makers in the were aware of the technique of making them.
I personally think the type of blanking dies for circles you see in the Rio catalog, for example, which can be used in a Bonny Doon type press point the way to an easy alternative for some stamped out shapes. These certainly are not secured in any special manner, but look easier to make with the hand tools available to the average jeweler. I think intimidation of the technology and lack of training is the only thing that is holding back many jewelers from using them, which is all the more curious, as they were once a skill that many jewelers knew and used.
I guess we know different blacksmiths. I got to know a number of them due to my interest in screw presses which are used by many blacksmiths. This is where I gained a lot of my information on making blanking dies. Indeed on several blacksmiths sites there are tables of metal thicknesses and clearances needed in blanking dies when used with various metals. Perhaps American blacksmiths have demand for types of products not required in the UK. The blacksmiths I discussed this mainly with were from Texas.
As a watchmaker, and also having been trained in jewelry repair as a side line, I am aware that many jewelers concentrate on one off or bespoke business, such as wedding rings and have no need to produce multiple components.
But this entire discussion has been about jewelers (and in my case, watchmakers) who do have the need from time to time to produce multiple components from time to time.
As I’ve pointed out about circle punches, blanking dies for limited runs do not have to be as elaborate as those made in the 19th Century, and I think, given the tools and dies you use, that it is “lost art” that could certainly should be revived to the benefit to some jewelers.
Nobody was over-generalizing to the point of saying that “that this is a type of tooling that is entirely beyond the comprehension and fabricating ability of the average jeweler”.
I was saying it’s simply easier to slap down a piece of tool steel plate and saw a die, than to machine two pieces and make them fit , then mount them in alignment. It’s also known and obvious that circle punches and other stock shapes are available as either hand-held punch sets , or inexpensive sets for manual presses. We’re talking about a range of difficulties here, with both pancakes and conventional dies.
I don’t understand at all how you would not need some sort of die shoe , or at least a press where you have to separately mount male and female die parts -something I do with round punches and a Di-Acro manual press. Again, for someone only needing a few pieces here and there, it’s easier to slap a pancake die in the press and be done in the time it might take to set up the 2-piece die set. Accurate alignment is absolutely necessary for blanking with dies that have little clearance .
I’m going to drop this part of the thread for now; some other people can chime in. I think you’re right about some things and wrong about some other things. 
DS
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The Moderator Bot has informed me that since I’ve been hogging space on this thread, maybe I should consider letting other people join the conversation . Normally I’d roll my eyes and go "seriously … a mod bot …an A.I. zombie wants to mess with my groove, after I quit a forum where I’ve been wasting time for a couple of years, to come here and start doing something more constructive with my spare time ? ". But I also take my indications from wherever they come from, so if that’s a mod bot, so be it. I do have less inclination to argue with someone about something not quite in my realm of expertise , and more to keep explaining about what I DO know a lot about, so , until it swings more back to pancake details, like I just said already , Imma stfu for a little 
DS
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I had this as well over my helping? mentoring some poor soul who hadnt a clue .
Took it up with Leah our admin madam. Seems its not made any difference. Also she had never come across it before. She also said the s/ware writers change stuff without telling her! by auto update. They obviously dont know its dangerous to mix with independent people. Tell it to “F” off.
Im with you on this.
Ted.
PS, spent a most enjoyable am yesterday doing the steel work on fitting a big hyd pump onto my farm tractor.
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