Well , I’m okay with whatever forums want to do as far as monitoring; it was odd to see a modbot though , and yes, mildly annoying because it was really not applicable , given the context that I have been providing useful information . But bots do what bots do, and bots are dumb as dirt half the time , so, consider the source, I guess 
(now I’m going to get ads selling gravel, potting soil , and …dirt 
, just watch)
Dar 
Hi Dar,
I do hope that you and Ted will not be bothered by some bot. I’ve learned a lot in this thread and do plan on some experiments, so, if you want to pause for breath at times, that is your call, but please don’t stop, as you’re a big part of what makes this forum so valuable and keeps me reading all of it every day.
On this topic, a press is beyond my budget at present. Could I use some simple pancake dies (hearts, butterflies, etc. in a vise with 22 to 20 gauge silver?
Hi Roy,
Im smiling! and I like your question, can I use a vice?
The answer is of course, yes.
Now What I like about this forum is the challenges folk throw up. On reading your question, my thought process was as follows,
A vice is used with the jaw faces vertical. So why not mount the vice with its base vertical and the handle/ thread vertical? then the jaws will be horizontal. So much easier to use a pancake die therin
Next what / type size vice? Well, the bigger the better.
Id say minimum 4 in wide jaws, tho 6 in is best IF you can find a s/hand one. And it has to be a bench vice, not a smiths vice with a long leg. Do you know these?
Im going to let you figure out what kind of strong bracket /whatever your going to need to do this.
Let us all know how you get on.
Ted.
I am not a “professional” jeweler in the strict sense. But having used a
few dies in an hydraulic press I have been following this discussion, and
found it interesting and informative. Not sure what a mudbot is, indeed not
sure what a bot is, unless it’s one of those yellow faces peppering the
entries. But I am admittedly old!
At any rate, I hope things cool off and that the information continues to
flow.
Noralie Katsu
I have used Kevin’s pancake dies with 18 ga. in a vise. As long as the measurement of the design fits the measurement of the face of the jaws. Where the design exceeds the jaw’s surface, that part of the design will not cut. And there is no do-over.
I would probably be doing small designs, but it is also possible to enlarge the size of your vice jaws by using two stiff backing plates for the die. I don’t think it would be hard to turn a set of 3x1.5 jaws into something 5x3. Steel plates or maybe even pieces of 2x4.
Hi Ted,
I thought of you today because I saw a nice big fly press on ebay.uk at a $50 bid and $20 shipping, but it will probably go to $100 and I don’t want to get into that amount now, as I’m still mastering sawing and soldering and forging. It may take a while to get to mounting the vise (it will go on a very large stump or similar) and getting the scroll saw operational to try to cut some dies. Both of these items are buried in junk in the garage,
which is to be cleaned out when the weather gets a bit warmer. When/if I get to some pancake dies or a punch and die set in a vise, I’ll report my progress.
It did not work for me, but you might have more success with it.
Morning Roy,
Which Ebay,? USA or UK?
AS I checked the link in your post and it took me to the UK E/B.
There was some 900 fly presses, and none listed in $.
So where are you? As you know im in the UK.
Now buying fly presses is like buying s/h cars. You never buy without a try. It may be a goodn, or it might be compltely worn out. Thats the “T” slots to hold down the shoe/bolster and the screw. Also they must have the right top arm and both balls if over 3 tons rating.
As for using a smaller vice, you can try it at the risk of breaking the p/die.
My advice is the same as Betty2. No.
To look at whether a press is really for you, will depend on your product range, at what price your selling and where.
A press opens the door to so much faster making.
I must have at least 8 with all the tooling. I couldnt work without them.
My 50th anniversary buckle is 90% made with press tools. but im making an initial production run of 50. With a total of 20 bits of metal in each. so Ive to make 1000 parts. That includes 4 silver rivets in each. All ready made of course.
hope this helps.
Ted
This is a little bit far away from the Pancake thread we have been looking at. I have seen this particular tool (see attached) in adverts in magazines as well as in catalogs but I haven’t heard it mentioned in the forum. Has anyone had experience with the GRS® Tools 004-725 Metal Former and what was the experience? I am aware of the pressure this device is capable of so I am not expecting it to be much competition with Bonny Doon presses or even an arbor press for that matter. And I doubt it would drive a pancake through a piece of 20 ga. annealed sterling. I make a lot of domed earrings and that is the direction I am thinking. I can’t see that a hydraulic press would be needed for shaping earrings but actually in my space delinquent shop this might be a faster set up for me. Any thoughts?
Don Meixner
I have a press that you are welcome to use, but what’s wrong with using your dapping dies? I use them to dome up to 1" diameter domes. You can also use some kind of domed piece of metal, a piece of urethane and your vise. Your O2 concentrator is still working fine. Hopefully mine will be fixed or replaced sometime next week. Thanks…Rob
Hi Don,
The key to doming ,or bending for that matter is the tooling.
Your pushing the metal past its yield point.
@DonMeixner, Bonny Doon, and Potter USA make mushroom formers, see the following for examples:
http://www.potterusa.com/21-mushroom-formers-for-hydraulic-press
that have different radii / degrees of curvature, that would give you more options than the tool you cited. In addition to the mushroom former(s), for anything like earrings or pendants several inches in diameter you’d just need a thick, not very stiff urethane pad and a brass or other mallet to do the forming. A small arbor press would also work.
Neil A
I am in another country, I use what I feel are conventional blanking dies. I am exploring pancake dies at the moment, as this would be possibly a cheap way for me to offer blanks on a limited basis cheaply to my customers and myself. But my question is, do you have a picture of one? I am curious to see if it is the same as what I have here. I will take a few pictures in a bit to share what mine look like. But I am real curious. Thanks, Sincerely, Laura
This is the only vise I use. Dad’s. And I only use it for twist bracelets and holding small bits to be filed. I am looking for another but they are pricey when found. And I have never seen anything remotely like it. Maybe someone in the forum has seen something similar.
I’ll try a press soon as the new shop is done. It is getting critical that I figure ways to limited using my left hand.
Thanks for the offer .
Don
---- Robert Meixner orchid@ganoksin.com wrote:
HI,
I haven’t tried that one, but I have made a few manual (and one motorized) doming machines- ones you sit it and power with your legs. Looking at that pic, I don’t see a wrinkly tool , but I do see a wrinkly bracelet, and that’s probably the biggest hurdle with doing cuffs like that. The power of my manual presses -leverage created by a long pedal down at your feet, with a short other-arm of the lever where the tool goes - was enough to prevent/flatten almost all wrinkles and kinks. This is one obvious advantage that a hydraulic press has . The softer the female (negative “mold”) material, the less force is required, but the higher likelihood of wrinkling there is . I made bottom molds out of nylon . I can see some use for a simple, relatively inexpensive domer like the one you show , but I expect it would
be hard to get smooth domes on wider pieces and steeper domes.
DS
ONE IMPORTANT THING about using a vise with pancake dies :
As sort of mentioned just a bit earlier, you have to have the entire design area covered and supported by the vise jaws. NO parts of the design can be sticking out unsupported . That’s asking really hard to ruin you die . My dies can break, and unhardened ones can bend (and they don’t spring back) . This is ONE HUGE BASIC FACT about all pancake dies in all situations (when blanking flat parts . It’s also highly advisable to have the whole upper area of the “negative” body part of the die covered and supported - the upper 3rd or 4th of the die body . So, I always tell people to either make sure the vise jaws are at least as big as the design, and preferably larger, or to modify them (make add-on faces or whatever) so that they do have enough surface area.
DS
Don…I know this vise well. It was Dad’s. It is way too small to use with a pancake die. You need a vise with enough driven area to cover the entire pancake die and more. That being said, I would love to find one of these vises for sale. It is what I learned on in the early 70s and a very efficient vise to use. I have searched the internet and the only reference I find is a patent application in the early 1900s. I suspect that it was a watchmakers vise…Rob
When I posted the photo I almost put a scale next to it to show size. I have seen them on Ebay but they are gone before I can type in a bid. As I say, Maybe some one in the forum has seen them or something similar. The Tower and Lyon Stephens Patent vise was made in a few places it seems. Syracuse was one of them. And that same device was made in very large sizes. Dad’s being pretty small.
And no, I would never try doming with it. I have some pretty good hammers and a new dapping block thanks to son Geoffrey…
D
---- Robert Meixner orchid@ganoksin.com wrote:
Good Grief! That is a solid brass bench vice! It may even be hand made, but I would judge it to be 190th Century. Stop using it, and sell it for $$$$$ on a tool collector’s forum. Someone will want that beautiful antique. You can find one exactly like it for a very reasonable price, and then you can either put brass jaws on or use any of the myriad of rubber devices available to slip over the Jaws of a vice.
