Certainly you can't cast Mokume. Well true, not cast exactly, and
the same was said about pattern welding ferrous metals (misnamed
Damascus these days), however there is a company that uses a
sintered metal layering technique that can reproduce these
patterns. No one has yet made Mokume Gane this way, but it's
possible to do. At this stage it would be cheaper to do Mokume by
hand, because of the volumes of metal powder involved.
You might be interested in seeing an alternative to the Damasteel
process, see my other business www.xpmcorporation.com we produce
“mokume” type material in volume production using powder, sheet, wire
etc.
created by hand. Take a look at some of the pieces I make and see
if they can be created by hand fabrication. I would doubt it. The
simple answer is to choose the method that best suites the piece.
On your site natureinspiredjewelry.com, there is no piece, that
couldn’t made by hand. But casting them is a lot cheaper than doing
it by hand…
You mentioned a clear difference, is this surface clarity,
glossiness. If I take a bronze ingot (90/10) and form it into a
flat disk. I can get a mirror polish on that disk. If I cast a
bronze disk I can still get a mirror polish on that disk, and it
would look the same. Mechanically it wouldn't be the same, but it
would "look" the same.
Charles, this is physical impossible. It can’t look the same. Please
have a look at this two, small pictures:
I have been casting for close to 40 years both for my self and for
others while working as a production manager in a casting job
shop. I am familiar with and have done a small amount of foundry
work. Currently I use CAD/CAM to produce models both grown and
milled that I then have cast in a variety of metals. I do not make
the assertion that a casting is a degraded copy of the model
lightly. As I said it usually produces a part that is good enough
for the purposes of the designer but it is never an exact duplicate
of the model. If casting produced an exact copy of the original
then there would be no need for all the finishing operations
required on a cast part. On an industrial scale the most
sophisticated casting processes produce what is considered a near
net shape article meaning that they require further machine
operations to produce useable parts. If they were a perfect copy
you would be able to make net shape articles that had no further
need of additional processing.
Honestly I thought the finishing and polishing was a given. I should
add that once finished a casting may not be able to be
differentiated from the original.
There is no way a casting fresh out of the mould would ever match
the original, if that’s where the confusion lay I apologise for not
making that point clear.
Do you use expandable media, if you’re doing a copy. Some of the
products used in scaling a model are pretty cool, and some of the
water activate media can control the amount of expansion, but soak
time.
Would you agree that two “finished” pieces would be difficult to
tell apart?
Regards Charles
P.S. Again, I’m not trying to be difficult, I just have to get it right
in my noggin
The original "hand made piece is the wax model, once cast it is a
duplicate, an industrially produced item that at best can be hand
finished but is not hand made jewelry.
Sorry have been away for a few days. James, I know what you are
saying and I completely understand the bureaucrateese you cited. I
spent nearly 40 years in the govt (that was my primary source of
income…it paid the bills while I pursued my passion for jewelry).
All I can do is wonder who, in their infinite wisdom, wrote such
regulations and what was their understanding of the jewelry making
process? Perhaps it was a bunch of bench jewelers who had no
intention of allowing them there casting fellows a place at the
table. Or, maybe it was some bureaucrat(s) who wouldn’t understand
one end of a file (or whatever) from another! One thing I learned
whilst writing regulations, it must be written at an 8th grade
level…but then be sure to add as much legalese as possible so no
one can understand it! (
Having watched the short 10 min. clip on your website on how to hand
fabricate (from hand-made stock) an eternity ring, all with hand
tools, is just remarkable. I’ve ordered the full DVD of you making
that eternity ring, as I want to own this fine example of the
highest quality “Old School” hand work I’ve ever seen on a DVD.
Whether you are new to jewelry making, or a seasoned expert,
watching a talented expert like Leonid make a sophisticated eternity
ring and set it all by hand is something everyone should get a chance
to see. You’re right, Leonid, these kinds of rare hand skills are
dying out, and we should do what we can to make sure these techniques
are not lost forever.
Honestly I thought the finishing and polishing was a given.
Quickly, a couple of thoughts. Nice day outside…
5-8 years ago David Hockney came out with evidence that the old
world painters were using projectors to put their compositions on
big canvases. Way too many left-handed people, stuff like that. The
outrage from “The Art World” was deafening, even in the face of
overwhelming evidence. And you had what are essentially spectators
(critics, patrons) arguing with painters about painting. The use of
projectors is not a secret, it’s not new and everybody who went to
art school knows about it. People had this notion of artistic purity
simply because they had no real idea of how art is actually made to
begin with, and once that got skewered, they needed to pout and fret
and pontificate.
Casting is like that - it’s just another process, and has been for
as long as there has been jewelry.
#2… When jewelry is made in the traditional way for casting, a
model maker sits down with the usual tools and makes an original,
which gets molded, shot with wax and cast. Speaking production,
here. Then a goldsmith takes that casting and files it all over,
using the same (type) tools the model maker used. Then it gets
sanded, and at that point it is identical to what the model maker
made, stylistically. From there it goes to polish. One of the
problems with CNC is that the computer is using tools the goldsmith
doesn’t have - the goldsmith is physically incapable of following
the same path. That’s when you can have real problems in the
finishing end of it all… Outside, now…
I am falling into the middle of this thread, and have not seen many
of the original posts. Forgive me for jumping in…
From my viewpoint, I am looking for any expedient way to achieve a
creative, well made piece of jewelry.
In my classes that I’ve been teaching for over 30 years, I try to
take advantage of the various jewelry-trade experiences I’ve had, and
the variety of pieces I’ve produced and sold. Although I’ve employed
many processes to create finished goods, I would say fabrication with
hand-made wire and sheet stock, and casting hand-carved wax models
have been the two most common techniques I personally use and teach
to others. I find that to help students, many of whom have not had
prior jewelry making, to create something they want to make
themselves, the quickest and most appropriate method is needed. Many
want a finished piece in their hands at the end of 9 classes of 2 1/2
hours each.
I can’t get into an argument over whether the quality of finish on a
fabricated piece or a cast piece is finer, or whether the structural
integrity of fabricated metal is better than cast metal. The folks
that are making high-end production jewelry are making sure they’ve
sweated the details, and their manufacturing methods are state of the
art. Imagine having someone in a company whose only job was to look
extremely closely at everything made, and not allow anything less
than perfect to be sold.
My quality control is somewhat less demanding. I’m trying to help
students create work they can be proud of, and that looks well made.
We are not Tiffany, but my students and I are proud of the work which
comes out of our studio. Fabricated or cast, both techniques have
advantages as well as limitations, but can be highly effective
methods for producing beautiful work.
If one looks at the astounding variety of hand-made jewelry work
done today, metal finishes can range between a high polish to a
pitted rust. All have value, with no finish better than another. I
want to see the beauty of a hand-made object, but not necessarily
examine it with a loupe.
Their is no substitute for handmade; that being said does anyone
need a mini vacum casting system it is by kerr. The casting system
comes with five perforated flask and a burnout kiln; the system works
well but I live in a townhouse now so I can’t cast anymore. I am
willing to trade for a complete set of Peddinghaus hammers and a
complete planishing anvil set.
Thank you for taking the time to look at my website. When you are
finished creating an Elk Head pendant or one of my Mountain Scene
rings by hand with the detail in it that matches mine I would love
to see a photo of your finished piece.
Maybe I have been doing this wrong all these years and would like to
be taught how to do it differently by you.
Charles, this is physical impossible. It can't look the same.
Please have a look at this two, small pictures
Nice line art
It’s already been mentioned that the difference would only be seen
using a microscope.
I have already put a mirror polish on cast 90/10.
I’m taking a 90/10 cast ingot into class and I will be drawing it
into wire, maybe I could roll a piece into a piece of sheet and give
that a polish to see if there is a visible difference to the human
eye.
You might be interested in seeing an alternative to the Damasteel
process, see my other business www.xpmcorporation.com we produce
"mokume" type material in volume production using powder, sheet,
wire etc.
I’m really impressed. I hadn’t found anyone doing this process with
precious metals, hence the “no one” comment.
A couple of pertinent questions :-
Which way do you find, is most cost effective?
Do you find the manufacturing process “too” perfect?
What would one call a hand carved sculpted piece of wax jewelry
that is only cast once without mold just because it is the
fabrication mean that will give the best result in that case?
Wouldn't it be called hand made?
Faberge Eggs are mostly made from parts, which were cast. Nobody is
going to argue that they are not hand made pieces, but it is funny
to contemplate that in USA, one would be breaking FTC rules by
calling Faberge Eggs handmade.
I am guilty of making the original assertion, which started this
topic, so to remove ambiguity, I am going to qualify my statement by
saying that -
given the same design, one version of the design been executed by
metaphysical virtuoso in casting, and another version of the design
been executed by metaphysical virtuoso in hand fabrication; hand
fabrication version will be more detailed and elegant. I am
purposefully avoiding words like “more beautiful”, “more artistic”,
and etc.
Take a look at some of the pieces I make and see if they can be
created by hand fabrication. I would doubt it.
um. Greg, While I agree that the fluid organic forms of your jewelry
are well suited to working in wax, I didn’t see anything on your
site I couldn’t also make by hand at the bench. And given the burnout
times added to the casting process, If I needed to, from start to
finish, I could make any of them quicker. Though of course I’d be
spending more time at the bench, while you were doing stuff waiting
for the burnout, so my total bench time would likely exceed your
working time (assuming you were starting with a rubber mold. If hand
carving the wax, maybe not, since the methods in metal would not be
all the different than the methods in wax for many of them. The
methods on all your pieces would be simple metal work, filing,
sawing, hammering, chasing, and some carving with burs, and
engraving with standard engraving tools. Casting might be a natural
for some of these things, but some of them would be almost as easy to
fabricate. Those aspen leaf rings, for example, would be relatively
easy to make at the bench directly in metal. Saw out the shapes, the
contour and detail with burs and gravers… Same end result from
what I can see in your photos. Mind you, I HAVE seen designs that
would be quite difficult to hand make, while casting works just fine,
but I can’t say your web site shows me any I’d describe like that.
And when you get into the sorts of wax models You can make with
CAD/CAM, then yes, I’ve seen quite a few I couldn’t make by hand.
(Check out Bathsheba Grossman’s small wonderful sculptures, for a
fine example…)
That said, I think you should still try to replicate it, even if
only appearance is the goal. There are important lessons to learn
about casting. Even if you could get wax model to be exact, and it
is a big if, due to metal shrinkage, loss of details is
inevitable. Because thickness is not uniform, neither will be the
shrinkage, so you are going to have a distortion, and etc... There
is a long laundry list of problems, but the best way to learn them
is to try and replicate the ring.
I’ll continue with the exercise, I think it will be a learniung
experience for me.
I’m going to try use a CAD package to make a digital model, then get
it machined out of Ferris. If I can make an exact digital copy then I
can scale for metal shrinkage.
Your design appears uniform, so if the casting is handled properly
then shrinkage should be uniform… in a perfect world.
Some of the castings I get done at the casting house have extremely
fine detail. One of my friends reported a light surface fingerprint
he left on a wax.
From what’s been discussed on this list I don’t hold much hope for
durability matching a hand worked piece. We’ll see how close a
casting house provided with a wax can get.
When I’ve drafted up the initial ring image I’ll send you a copy to
see if I’ve got all the details correct. I need a precise image to
work off though.
When Peter first mentioned Bathsheba’s work I looked her up and
said, “Oh, yeah, her”. I met her briefly at a show, once, and then I
wrote something about this topic. Then over some leftover pizza I
went back and browsed her site a bit. Of course she has some
brain-teasing work: http://www.bathsheba.com/
But then I looked deeper and there’s some things I’m sure people
will find useful. There’s a quickie description of how she’s using
straight-to-metal RP for her work, with links to the shop she’s
using: Bathsheba Sculpture - Making Metal
And a really useful set of links on the topic, in general -
software, process, all sorts of things: Bathsheba Sculpture - Links Plus many of the links go
to other pages that aren’t on the menu bars.
Check out Bathsheba Grossman's small wonderful sculptures, for a
fine example...
Haven’t wanted to be personal, but yes, Bathsheba’s sculptures are
wonderful, if a little mechanical for my tastes. And Greg’s work
isn’t that difficult to fabricate, no. I’d put out someone who we do
contract casting for: http://www.glenndizon.com/ as a better example.
Again, what does “Match” mean? Glenn’s designs would be easy to
fabricate in essence - “A bezel with a channel on the side” but
that’s not the work. It COULD be fabricated to the same weight, but
it would be a ridiculous mental exercise. It’s a line that’s based on
the properties of wax and casting - more massive, with flowing lines.
Casting is the ~right~ way to do it.
I respect your talent as well as many others here on Orchid so again
I ask you to teach me.
Anyone on Orchid than can create by hand something that matches my
Elephant head pendant (as an example) I would love to see it and
have you teach me how it is done.
Yes I know a sculptured piece can be made using daps, stakes.
gravers, chisels etc it would have a different look than this
example but again if I can learn from you I am very open minded and
would appreciate being educated.
