I’ve checked the archieves and haven’t found what I was looking for
so thought I would ask all of you.
I’ve started to do indian insiped pieces. What I need is information
about making the stamp and die sets like were used for making
conchos, buttons, buckles and such. I know that they made the male
half of tool steel and created the shape they needed. I don’t know
what they used for the female (die) part. I think lead but that
seems awfully soft to me.
So does anyone know a book or video or some kind of instruction in
this process? And is it related to “Drawing” metal?
I’ve never made the tool and die sets you describe - concha belt type
stuff. But I have use them many times. They are (and have to be) all
steel. The ones I used were made the old fashioned way - trial and
error, and skill, but not with EDM or the like…
John, the books by Oscar Branson describe the processes used for
making stamps out of old files. These stamps were used against a
steel block often made of pieces of railroad track. I have many of
these tye of stamps made years ago, in fact I just used some of them
this week. As for the two part steel dies, I have not seen any info
on them but the process is simple where you would carve, file and
grind the male part of the set then heat the block of steel you are
using as the female to red hot and hit the male into it hard.
Usually alot of heat scale is left and needs to be cleaned off. 3-M
has lots of steel finishing products for the cleaning and polishing
process.
My family used lead blocks as the female part of the die for many
years. We had employed Native American craftsmen for 3 generations
and learned much from them. The lead blocks had to be remade
occasional y but worked really well for alot of stuff. Use the male
punches to drive the silver into the forms you have already sculpted
in the lead. You cannot get crisp detail using this method and that
is why I started using pitch in my career. Pitch is more immediate
but doesn’t last long.
If you have any other questions, I would be glad to tell tell you
what I know.
I've started to do indian insiped pieces. What I need is
about making the stamp and die sets like were used for
making conchos, buttons, buckles and such. I know that they made
the male half of tool steel and created the shape they needed. I
don't know what they used for the female (die) part. I think lead
but that seems awfully soft to me.
They’re called repousse dies, consisting of a male and female part
on most of them. The male part was carved in wood or machined out of
steel. The wood male die was fire hardened. Either were generously
greased, as in petroleum jelly. The female part is called kirksite,
still sold my Metaliferrous. The kirksite is heated in a steel
casting ladle, and poured into a form. While still molten, the
greased male part is plunged in and held until the kirksite is fairly
stiff. After you’ve got your molds made, they still require to be
registerd, trued and polished. OR, you could just contact Tucker Tool
Company in Arizona, which has them already made with quality steel.
OR, you could order them from Thunderbird Supply in Gallup, NM. If
you’re ever in that area, you can go into the supply store and look
at some of their handmade molds for sale (some are very old and
one-of-a-kind). However, buying a good used die requires you have
some experience in using them to know which ones will be able to
actually be used versus just a dust collector, also known as an
antique.
So does anyone know a book or video or some kind of instruction in
this process? And is it related to "Drawing" metal?
Oscar T. Branson put out several books on Indian jewelry making. I
don’t remember if it’s in the first or second volume, but perhaps
someone knows which one. Drawing metal is generally used for drawing
wire by reducing an ingot to a form that can be pulled through a draw
plate. I believe Charles Lewton-Brain has some drawings and spec
sheets on making a homemade draw machine.
What I need is about making the stamp and die sets
like were used for making conchos, buttons, buckles and such.
Well I haft to confess that by day I run a manufacturing division
that has been making native american conchos,buckle,buttons and etc.
I
think you are thinking down the right path but we don’t use lead for
any forming or stamping.Every thing used would be 01 tool steel for
us.The products we make have been around longer than I have been
alive(30 years).I have had a great opportunity to work with these
antiques for the last few years and it is like I am carrying on a
tradition.
So each item is made a different way.
The conchos are blanked and then we use a drop hammer,or forging
hammer to make the item.The die is a female side with the design and
is the shape of the actual product while the male side only is a
smooth domed part with no detail.
The buttons are made all at once in a 45 ton press.The item is
stamped using a design stamp on the bottom and a flat punch on
top.They then progess to a part that blank the round shape and forms
the dome all in one strike.The buckles are formed in the 45 ton press
also in one step.It blanks the outer shape and makes the dome.They
would be smooth with no design and then the smith would solder or
hand stamp designs on this piece as well as attaching buckle backs
and pegs to it,etc.
There is a lot of books out there for tool and die making,as well as
forging.Also there is a book about hydralic forming and such from rio
grande.The bonny doon people are also a wealth of info on press work
and offer a great product.I would recommend you extend your education
with these.
You could also just have some tool and die shop make a die set for
you based on your designs.They can be expensive but if you have the
demand then it would be negligible.
On a side note a few smaller sterling items can be cast but cleanup
and tumbling add to the labor as well as the degree of detail that
would be sometimes inconsistent producing more scrap than a die
struck process.
I hope this will help point you in the right direction and good luck
on your journey!
Drawing metal is generally used for drawing wire by reducing an
ingot to a form that can be pulled through a draw plate.
You are correct, of course, in that this is the most common use of
the word “drawing” in the jewelry trades - but in other sheet metal
work it is also used to describe the process of “drawing”, that is,
pressing and stretching a sheet of metal down into a “female”
(concave) die to make objects shaped like like bowls, automobile
fenders, aluminum drink cans, artillery shells etc.
An object which is “drawn” in that sense can often be made by other
means; spinning, fabricatiing, raising, or sinking but those tend to
be much slower processes, often for hand-made or one-off objects
whereas industrial “drawing” requires big machinery, heavy presses
etc For mass-production and large objects the investment pays off.
Just out of curiousity I wonder where is the dividing line between
merely “dapping” sheet into a concave shape between two dies (male &
female) and “drawing.” There may be no sharp distinction to make and
it isn’t really important to me, just my desire to use words
accurately. Perhaps it has to do with the degree of deformation or
stretching. Any opinions?
Marty in Victoria - currently being drawn down by nasty cold virus
after glorious wedding of daughter last week - a draining
experience.
I really appreciate the feedback and the ides you have given me. I
have the Branson books on Indian Jewelry Making and that is what got
me started in this quest of making my own stamps and embossing dies,
I think that is the correct nomenclature.
John D: I hope am correct that EDM means somethind like Electonic
Discharge moldeling.
Also thanks all of you who gave me contacts of suppliers and
jobbers.
Sam P: I would like to hear more of your expeniences in the Indian
Jewelry trade. Maybe we should take that off line.
I do this for my own edification. I am now retired from corporate
america and this is one of the things I always wanted to get around
to. Now I have the time, a large family of girls and boys. 10
grandkids and 16 Great grandkids, 5 males and 21 females. I think I
will be busy for years.
The products we make have been around longer than I have been
alive(30 years).I have had a great opportunity to work with these
antiques for the last few years and it is like I am carrying on a
tradition.