JohnSaw blades are still sold in the UK as 2, 2/0, 4/0
Yes, exactly, Robin - to my knowlege it’s the system the world over.
Standardization and all that. 2/0 = 00, 4/0 =0000 (“two-zero,
4-zero”). It’s the same with steel wool and Swiss Pattern files,
though with files the coarseness is backwards: 00 is rougher than
#2. It used to be the same with some sandpaper, but mesh sizing
become a better standard, now microns.
My youngest is being taught the violin and intuitively grasped (pun intended) the mechanics of holding the saw lightly, the work firmly and letting the tool do the work.
Interesting! The first time I held a saw, I sawed perfectly, never
had a problem. I studied cello from the time I was 5…
Noel
Leonid,
Blade manufactures simply cannot provide blades of required quality. Some better than others, but even the best are wanting. The blades must be finished by the user. There are weird things about tempering steel, which metalurgists do not want to discuss, but steel, after hardening and tempering, has to relax at room temperature for about 18 months to achieve proper temper. It is not important for normal size objects, but can be critical for saw blades, especially small ones. Used to one could find an old stock, but today with on demand inventories it is impossible, so here is what you do. Buy blades in gross and bake them inside a loaf of bread. After bread is done, do not take loaf out of the oven, but let it cool inside the oven overnight. That will relax blades sufficiently to be useful. Annealing ends with cigarette lighter sometimes works, but not for every job.
Could you please provide a little more detail on baking saw blades
inside a loaf of bread. Is there a concern for the salt in the sour
dough interacting with the blades? Next time I bake sour dough, I
insert one blade in one loaf, or, do I insert six blades in one loaf?
Do I insert the blades in the unbaked dough after it has risen for an
hour, then bake for 45 minutes, then cool completely in the oven? Can
I cool the bread on a wire rack on top of the oven? Otherwise, the
bread is ruined as it will keep baking while the oven cools.
Thanks. MA
Larry,
My youngest is being taught the violin and intuitively grasped (pun intended) the mechanics of holding the saw lightly, the work firmly and letting the tool do the work. Maybe it works the other way too and a good piercer could learn violin with less frustration than non-piercers!
My violin-playing daughter has never expressed any interest. However,
my other daughter spent a few days in the studio last summer, before
heading back to college. I started her on piercing shapes for me and
showed her how to put the blade into the saw. I explained that after
she broke for first blade, she’d have to replace the blade herself.
She protested that this wouldn’t be needed. I had my laugh. I’ll be
darned if she didn’t break a single blades. She LOVED proving me
wrong. We still “argue” about if it was her superior piercing skills
or my superior teaching skills that caused this result.
Jamie
I think I've read all the responses, but don't recall anyone noting that a little burr lubricant on the saw blade will help as well. If that tip has already been mentioned, blame it on my inattention and accept my apology. Beeswax is the old standby lubricant if you don't have any "Burrlife" or such
I find that most recommended lubricants are getting in a way.
Lubricants which are solid at room temperature are only effective
when blade will get hot enough to melt it. But if blade getting that
hot, you are not using blade correctly. Used to jewelers were taught
to touch upper lip with the back of the blade while piercing. It
would deposit enough body oil to assist the process. I doubt that it
is practical advice in modern times, but we can learn from it. I
recommend using perfume oils as a substitute. Kerosine would work
well, but after a while the smell becomes intolerable. There is one
more recommendation I can make, if you really like the best, try
oils used for lubricating watches. There are many different grades,
but any would work well for blade lubrication. Oils like Moebius are
specifically designed to adhere to metal and resist breaking down
under mechanical stress.
Leonid Surpin
The difference? My youngest is being taught the violin and intuitively grasped (pun intended) the mechanics of holding the saw lightly, the work firmly and letting the tool do the work.
Interesting! I too was a violinist when younger and I instinctively
hold my saw very lightly indeed so that’s not the reason I’m
breaking saw blades. I don’t break them on the straights - only on
the corners. I’m just impatient I guess, trying to get round the
corner too quickly. I just need to learn to slow down and only
continue when the blade has cut a path for itself - although how a
blade can cut a path for itself when it hasn’t been there yet is
beyond me.
Helen
UK
Hi Judy,
I think I've read all the responses, but don't recall anyone noting that a little burr lubricant on the saw blade will help as well. If that tip has already been mentioned, blame it on my inattention and accept my apology. Beeswax is the old standby lubricant if you don't have any "Burrlife" or such,
I can’t remember whether burr lube was mentioned or not but I know
it’s needed and don’t use my saw without it. I use Enjen Jones Brown
Polymer with my saw blades and all my setting burrs. Thanks for
pointing it out though.
Helen
UK
No. 2/0 Vallorbe blades, NOT No. 2. I didn't realise there was a difference.
Helen, I for one assumed that was the case - it would be almost
impossible to saw 1mm metal with a #2 - I thought you (and
presumably others) had confused the numbering system, as you said. A
#2 sawblade has something like 1mm between each tooth… #4’s
are something like 2mm across - nice little fretwork blades,
those…
I always use “nose grease”. Just wipe your thumb and 1st finger on
either side of your nose, just above the nostrils, and then wipe the
the blade with the with the “grease”. It works extremely well, costs
nothing, and is very convenient. Don’t believe me; just try it.
Regards, Gary Wooding
Could you please provide a little more detail on baking saw blades inside a loaf of bread. Is there a concern for the salt in the sour dough interacting with the blades?
Buy a gross of blades ( 144 blades, 12 packs, 12 in each ). It comes
as one bundle. Wrap it in oiled parchment tightly. Put it in the
middle of the loaf( regular bread recipe ), let loaf to raise ( you
need the air packets in the dough for heat control ) and bake at 400
Fahrenheit in a regular oven for one hour; then do not take it out of
the oven; turn oven off and let bread cool in the oven overnight.
This
probable will render bread less than perfect, but blades will be
fine. ( No reason not to do several grosses at a time or add gravers
to the loaf as well ).
Whenever I recommend this procedure, sometimes I get weird looks (
or emails ), reminding me that it is 21 century and the phone has
been
invented, so to same time to the critics, here is some science behind
apparent madness:
When we heat the metal to orange heat ( at least I do ), the metal is
in a state of solid solution of iron and carbon which is called
austenite. Then metal is rapidly cooled (quenched) becoming a
martensite ( carbon atoms trapped in iron without having a chance to
diffuse into ). To form tough, holding edge alloy, the martensite
has to be converted into bainite, where carbon is diffused into
alloy. Purist would argue that annealing alone cannot produce true
bainite, which is true. But we do get a useful approximation. The
main point is that this process takes time and manufactures do not
want to spend it. So baking in inside the load of bread and slowly
cooling it give it that time for carbon atom to diffuse and form
flexible, but tough alloy.
Leonid Surpin
Interesting! The first time I held a saw, I sawed perfectly, never had a problem. I studied cello from the time I was 5...
That is interesting. In my years of teaching metalsmithing, I met 1,
maybe 2 people who could saw right out of the gate. I wonder if they
had any musical background?
Hi Helen,
although how a blade can cut a path for itself when it hasn't been there yet is beyond me.
I worked with a novice jeweler once who had a terrible time
controling his saw. He was oversteering the sawblade when making
turns. I told him “when you want to make a turn, do nothing more
than think about where you want to go, and the blade will find it’s
path.” At first he laughed, but he tried it and fell in love with
piercing. Do you really have to just think about where you want the
blade to go and it goes there…no, but for someone over-correcting
it was the ideal way for him to understand that sawing requires less
work than he previously understood. Piercing is a mysterious
technique. That’s one thing that makes if fascinating.
Larry
Helen…I have enjoyed watching this thread because I believe sawing
is one of the most important aspects of jewelry making! Regarding
going around corners…remember what you are doing is ‘drilling’ a
hole with the saw blade. That means the blade (1) must be perfectly
upright…(90 deg) to the work (2) constantly moving in short up/down
strokes without moving forward (3) slowly turned 45 deg (at least)
from original direction, and (4) never forced. Sort of like, tapping
one’s head, rubbing one’s belly, and tapping one’s foot at the same
time. I like to add…looking cross-eyed too!
Cheers and Merry Christmas from Don in SOFL.
Interesting tale Jamie! The record number of blades broken on their
first session held by one of my students is 16. A record none should
be proud of. Many don’t break one blade on their first try.
Therefore, can’t be my teaching skills (of lack thereof) :)- Cheers
from Don in SOFL
Could you please provide a little more detail on baking saw blades inside a loaf of bread.
FWIW Don’t take that loaf of bread to anyone that may be in jail
(bg).
Dave
Greetings all:
There’s a really interesting book about how the use of the hand
influences the way the brain develops, and vice-versa. It turns out
that musicians and jewelers have very similar hyper-development in
some of the brain areas responsible for fine motor control.
It’s by Frank Wilson, and it’s called The Hand: How its Use Shapes
the Brain, Language, and Human Culture
It’s about how the hand and brain work together. It’s about how the
things we do with our hands at an early age actually change the
physical development and structure of our brains; how the structures
of the brain influence what we do with our hands, and how the two
evolved together. The first time I read this, it was like a
flashbulb exploding: it illuminated so much of what I’d noticed about
the difference between how craftspeople use their hands, and think
about making things, versus non craftspeople. Their brains are
different. Really. Every craftsperson I’ve talked to who’s read it
has found it vastly informative.
Regards,
Brian Meek.
As I was doing some piercing today I realized I had an unconscious
habit, when I come to a corner or start a tight curve, I put my
thumb behind the blade and I keep the blade going up and down without
cutting, as I start cutting in the direction I want to go I can feel
how smooth I am cutting and I feel it is a way to be really
sensitive to what the blade is doing. I can also tell how straight
the blade is. If I am cutting really small areas, doing this allows
me to help control the blade and I can use it as a really small file.
I do not put pressure on the blade with my thumb, it is more of a
guide, and I can actually use my thumb as a pivot by gently pressing
the blade back into my thumb and sawing very slowly and moving my
thumb slowly forward as I saw.
Richard Hart G.G.
Jewelers Gallery
Denver Co.
Brian:
There's a really interesting book about how the use of the hand influences the way the brain develops, and vice-versa. It turns out that musicians and jewelers have very similar hyper-development in some of the brain areas responsible for fine motor control.
After I restarted making jewelry and retrained my hands, I found that
my fine motor skills improved overall. Most noticeably, manicure and
nail polish application was much improved. Good thing too, since my
nails are cruddy and really need manicures now 
Jamie
Hi Helen,
Please forgive any repeats of previous advice…
I’m another string player who’s applied bowing principles to sawing.
I also found that a easy, straight bowing motion with loose wrist and
fingers and motion generated from the elbow (not the shoulder) made
sawing on the straights extremely easy. I pretend I’m a bandsaw.
As for the corners, I’d bet UKP 5 that you’re not holding the saw
straight up and down, even if you think you are. One of my
instructors had me sit down and saw for him - it turned out I needed
to (1) lower my seat - I’m very tall and (2) push my wrist forward
ever so slightly to bring the bottom of the saw forward. (It actually
FEELS a little like I’m overextending it even tho the position turns
out to be correct.) When I do this, I can feel the friction releasing
in mid-saw and the metal seems to magically part. It’s also quieter,
which means I’m not converting my energy to friction and sound
energy. Maybe you could have someone take photos of you from the side
while you saw - I’ll bet there’s a 5 to 15 degree slant there that
you can’t see or detect from your usual vantage point behind the peg.
I think you’ll agree that having a slant in the blade while going
around a corner puts tension on the blade, as though one is trying to
wrap the blade around the corner like a rubber band.
The other thing worth double-checking is the tooth size of your saw
blades. I think the Brepohl book has a good discussion of chip
making with saw blades. Tim McCreight’s book (in my hand) says that
three teeth need to be on the metal at all times. I find that if it’s
AT LEAST three teeth, I get no snagging and yanking.
Oh, and is your peg flat side up for sawing and slanted side up for
filing?
As for lubrication - I’ve used beeswax, spit and nothing at all -
they were all fine, but I do prefer using something for those few
moments each session when my technique gets lazy. I’ll try bur lube
at some point as well.
Making these minor corrections has sped me up enormously - no
kidding - this technique has me going faster than my classmates by a
factor of 2.
Hope this helps,
Erin
That is interesting. In my years of teaching metalsmithing, I met 1, maybe 2 people who could saw right out of the gate. I wonder if they had any musical background?
Hmmm…I took to sawing like a duck to water, and I have had NO
musical training. Maybe I should take up the violin…
Donna