It’s strange to me how polarized this group seems to have become…
No one has posted the possibility that a professional maker may
simply no longer wish to actually make something. (It’s not a sin.)
That person may enjoy teaching and, in fact, see it as another facet
of his/her career as a maker.
A
University lecturers? Yes, and some of us even answer questions on
Orchid regularly.
Actually, the lecturers are the ones you can be pretty sure actually
can teach: that’s all we do, and if our evaluation numbers stink,
we don’t get re-hired for the next term.
No job security, low pay, very little possibility for advancement
within the college. Clearly, we’re all doing this for the respect
and free coffee.
Regards,
Brian Meek.
No one has posted the possibility that a professional maker may simply no longer wish to actually make something. (It's not a sin.)
Jewelers who decided to go into teaching career after having
experience as actually making something are not a problem. It is
people, who failed as jewelers, becoming teachers, who are the
problem. There is no way for a student to tell one from another, and
that is the real problem.
leonid surpin
I also find it amazing, Andy. I teach and also fabricate. I am not a
master like Andy, but absolutely love making stuff, but when I teach
I get the bonus of sharing an amazing experience with my students.
That excitement of seeing a process for the first time or the gleam
in their eye when they acomplish a project is priceless. Not to
mention when they show me something new! I love teaching and am
grateful to have another avenue to experience my love of art.
Debbie
No one has posted the possibility that a professional maker may simply no longer wish to actually make something. (It's not a sin)
That person may enjoy teaching and, in fact, see it as another facet
of his/her career as a maker.
-Very true- in my travels I have encountered professors who are
physicians, craftsmen/women and PhD’s who cant work secondary to
their limitations or ailments or simple changes in life.
-There are a couple who practice in metals and produce custom pieces
in= my area that stopped producing- but still are teaching because
of arthri= tis, macular degeneration, and cervical fusions. The
students they work with are not novice beginners- so the
demonstrations of skills is more in critique and thought-provoking
examinations… but teaching nonetheless.
-They do what they can- but their passions for guidance and
direction extend. Their efforts may be past, but the appreciation
and tutelage is still very much in the present and can kindle and
fuel fires in other hearts/minds…
From a student to all who teach- even the grumpy ones who dont know
they are teaching (you can choose to emulate or selectively choose
what habits youdo or do NOT like in another) Thanks.
Leonid,
Jewelers who decided to go into teaching career after having experience as actually making something are not a problem. It is people, who failed as jewelers, becoming teachers, who are the problem. There is no way for a student to tell one from another, and that is the real problem.
A lot of what you post has me screaming and crawling across the
ceiling.
But you hit this one dead on except that you left out the ‘mentors’
who can’t find their way out of a wet paper bag. Teachers I quickly
learned about but ‘mentors’ (employers) took longer.
jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand
No one has posted the possibility that a professional maker may simply no longer wish to actually make something.
I believe a trade school would be a better way to spend time and
money if a person desires to work in the jewelry trade.
Someone who has a degree can become a professional maker, later in
life, they might be able to get a teaching job. Someone who becomes a
professional maker, without a degree, cannot teach without going back
to school and getting that degree. Someone who gets a degree, and
gets a teaching job most likely would not be able to stop teaching
and get a job in the jewelry industry as a professional maker.
Put me in a classroom and see if I could teach. Put a teacher at my
bench and see what they are capable of.
Teaching how to do something is quite different than practicing what
you learn to become proficient enough to make a living doing. Without
a degree, I learned how to saw, file, solder, make m= olds, make wax
models, do repair, sell, cast, polish, set, al= loy metals, forge,
make tools, repair tools, ect.
A jewelry teacher makes their income from teaching the skills to make
jewelry, a maker uses those developed skills for their income.
(Livelihood) Apprentice plumbers and physician interns learn from
those who practice the trade they are learning…people who actually
make a living from what they are teaching as practicing plumbers and
physicians.
If someone wants to learn how to make jewelry as a trade, there are
schools that teach jewelry basics and prepare students better than
most college classes. Most of what is taught in college is not
transferable to the jewelry industry.
I have seen college graduates from metals programs with large debts
and little skill to show for that debt. Certainly no skill that would
lead to employment with starting pay to live comfortably and pay back
the loans.
First thing I have to teach graduates is soldering and polishing. How
to do it right, to the quality standard I expect, and how to do it
efficiently. It takes a while before I can train someone who can work
unsupervised. Reality check would be for any maker who also teaches
to hire a student of yours and you will quickly understand what know.
If I hire someone who graduated from a college metals program, I then
become a teacher. I spend my time and money to train someone to have
employable skills.
Richard Hart G.G.
Denver, Co.
Put me in a classroom and see if I could teach. Put a teacher at my bench and see what they are capable of.
Richard creates a good place to comment on something said lately, by
a jewelry teacher I gather. Don’t remember the writer and it’s not
personal, just a prevailing attitude. What was said was along the
lines of: “I teach that anything can be made in any metal, such as
that anything in gold can be done in silver or even brass.”
I finally realized that if your design approach is to cut pieces of
colored constuction paper and glue the shapes together, then you can
get away with that sort of statement. Here’s white paper, here’s
yellow paper, it’s all paper.
But there’s this field called “Materials Science” you see, and it
matters. It’s as though they’re saying, “cats are the same as dogs
because they’re four-legged mammals and that’s all we need to
know…”
In some idealistic art class, yes, someone with eternal time and not
a whit of common sense could make it work, but this is the real
world and we have better things to do with our time.
The list of reasons why a Faberge egg simply could ~not~ be made in
brass (perhaps if you battled the metal for 10 years…) is huge.
If a person were to do it anyway then now, 125 years later, it would
be a rotten pile of scrap metal. That matters, too - life after the
bench.
Go ahead - make a sailboat out of knotty pine… It CAN be done. In
our world, we use the right material for the job, leave the idealism
for the students, and try to learn what each material is capable of
and why, and treat them in the ways they need to be treated. That’s
metalsmithing in the real world.
No one has posted the possibility that a professional maker may simply no longer wish to actually make something.
Someone who has a degree can become a professional maker, later in
life, they might be able to get a teaching job. Someone who becomes a
professional maker, without a degree, cannot teach without going back
to school and getting that degree. Someone who gets a degree, and
gets a teaching job most likely would not be able to stop teaching
and get a job in the jewelry industry as a professional maker.
Put me in a classroom and see if I could teach. Put a teacher in my
store and see what they are capable of.
Teaching how to do something is quite different than practicing what
you learn to become proficient enough to make a living doing. Without
a degree, I learned how to saw, file, solder, make m= olds, make wax
models, do repair, sell, cast, polish, set, al= loy metals, forge,
make tools, repair tools, ect.
A jewelry teacher makes their income from teaching the skills to make
jewelry, a maker uses those developed skills for their income.
(Livelihood)
Apprentice plumbers and physician interns learn from those who
practice the trade they are learning…people who actually make a
living from what they are teaching as practicing plumbers and
physicians.
If someone wants to learn how to make jewelry as a trade, there are
schools that teach jewelry basics and prepare students better than
most college classes.
Most of what is taught in college is not transferable to the jewelry
industry.
I have seen college graduates from metals programs with large debts
and little skill to show for that debt. Certainly no skill that would
lead to employment with starting pay to live comfortably and pay back
the loans.
First thing I have to teach graduates is soldering and polishing. How
to do it right, to the quality standard I expect, and how to do it
efficiently. It takes a while before I can train someone who can work
unsupervised. Reality check would be for any maker who also teaches
to hire a student of yours and you will quickly understand what know.
If I hire someone who graduated from a college metals program, I then
become a teacher. I spend my time and money to train someone to have
employable skills.
Richard Hart G.G.
Denver, Co.
If I hire someone who graduated from a college metals program, I then become a teacher. I spend my time and money to train someone to have employable skills.
Richard that was so true, and the post is something that everyone
going into a University metals program should read. I have hired a
number of BFA metals graduates and they are always shocked at how
little they learned that applies to the career they have dreamed of
for so long. They have to start out almost as though they came
straight out of high school and that is hard for them to take.
That’s not to say that the time was wasted. They are often more well
rounded than those who have skipped the University experience. They
will look at designs and styles and often understand them more
deeply, see how they reflect an earlier style from an artist they
studied in an art history class for instance. They understand some
processes that we never use and can relate them to the work we are
doing in the shop. I also think that the 4 years spent socializing on
a University campus is worth a lot. Their exposure to the stew
different people and ideas is something that will shape their values
and beliefs their entire lives.
But if I compare the people with degrees to the people who went right
to work in our shop I have to say that the resulting work is
indistinguishable. The better work seems to come from people with
more natural ability and adedication to improve their skills daily,
rather than from where they were trained initially.
Mark
Hello Leonid;
Jewelers who decided to go into teaching career after having experience as actually making something are not a problem. It is people, who failed as jewelers, becoming teachers, who are the problem.
I would almost agree with you. I think it’s more likely that those
that never got practical experience after schooling and never tried
to be working jewelers, except for making “artistic” jewelry, that
are the problem. But it really depends on what kind of stuff they
were making before they got into teaching. Richard Mawdsley, one of
my professors, never worked in the jewelry trade but had excellent
technical skills. But I don’t know that he didn’t learn from others
outside of academia. I got college degrees, but also started out in
a trade shop and worked for years with various retail jewelers before
I did any teaching. I’d hate to think what kind of teacher I’d have
been if I’d never done that. But really, whether you need a college
degree or not finally depends on what you want to end up doing. A
lot of galleries won’t take you seriously if you don’t have that
BFA/MFA on your resume. For many, what they can learn in college is
just fine (not that I could hire them in my shop). You and I make a
particular product for a particular market. There are other products
for other markets. My stuff is much to commercial for an art gallery
type venue (not that I can’t make that kind of stuff).
David L. Huffman
Mr. Donivan,
Anything in gold can be done in silver or even brass.
That would be me that said that. And I believe that is, in fact, the
truth.
The list of reasons why a Faberge egg simply could ~not~ be made in brass (perhaps if you battled the metal for 10 years....) is huge. If a person were to do it anyway then now, 125 years later, it would be a rotten pile of scrap metal
I would like to see a huge list of reasons that a Faberge egg could
not be manufactured out of brass.
I am always happy to be corrected, but other than the value of the
material, and some small differences in temperatures and tool design,
what would be so different from gold manufacturing?
One is able to manufacture the most intricate of devices, like watch
gears, tiny screws and the like, without too much difficulty.
And why would it be a "rotten pile of scrap metal" 125 years later?
Brass was developed in India about 100AD and brass object have
survived easily for a thousand years or more.
I have seen many 16th century clocks that had enamelled faces with
the most intricate mobile mechanisms in them, and to this day still
work as well as when they were made.
I look forward to a pointed response from you.
Cheers, Hans Meevis
I have seen college graduates from metals programs with large debts and little skill to show for that debt. Certainly no skill that would lead to employment with starting pay to live comfortably and pay back the loans.
We keep coming back to this - what I believe to be a complete
misunderstanding of the purpose of college/university. It is NOT to
prepare you to walk right into a job - and if you go in thinking
that, you are most likely to be rudely awakened when you graduate! It
doesn’t matter whether you are studying metals or biology or history
The point of a degree is to broaden and deepen your knowledge, not
just in one field, but across the range of human knowledge. This is
why good colleges/universities require students to take courses
across the range of disciplines, not just in their major area of
study. It is also to expose you to knowledge and ideas you might not
have encountered. Many students enter thinking they want to do one
area, and discover an area of study they either didn’t know about at
all, or didn’t understand, and realize that is their real passion.
Just as a pre-med or pre-law student then goes on to professional
school to actually learn the job skills, someone coming from a
metals program will need to go on to additional training to learn the
precise skills for the area they want to enter.
What that degree and money SHOULD have done (doesn’t always happen!)
is to prepare them to be able to find the knowledge they need
throughout life, to communicate clearly, and to know how to think -
and enjoy it. These skills will serve them in whatever field - or
more likely fields today - they enter.
I had a contemporary who graduated with honors from a very highly
ranked college - and became a house builder. Did the college degree
help him build better houses? I would seriously doubt it. Did it help
him lead a fuller life than he would have otherwise? Quite probably.
A good college introduces the student to things most people would not
encounter or seek out on their own. The interests thus begun can be
continued throughout life.
Does that mean everyone should have a college degree, or if you
don’t you are less somehow than someone who does? Absolutely not!!!
It is simply ONE way to prepare for adulthood and life - not the only
way!
In the US, at least, I think this whole subject is tremendously
misunderstood, with people who would be much happier and much better
served by a different route thinking they HAVE to get that
university degree! There are a few fields - like law or medicine -
where you HAVE to have the proper degrees to practice in those
fields. Many other fields do not require a certain degree, or any
degree at all, to be quite successful.
I would suggest anyone considering a college or university degree
take the time to figure out WHY they want the degree, WHAT they
expect from it, and then check with professionals in your desired
field to see if your expectations meet the working world reality.
I have a BA and an MFA in art - and didn’t get either with the
expectation that they would lead to immediate jobs with high
incomes! I got them because I wanted to learn the breadth and depth
of knowledge they provided, and with a real understanding of the
limitations they had. I looked at some schools that were more
“skill/ trade” oriented before embarking on my BA degree, and decided
that was not what I wanted at that time.
For me, those have been good decisions. I cherish the knowledge, the
stretching of my mental skills and communications skills, and the
breadth/depth of exposure that my college and university experiences
provided me. Those have all served me well in the numerous jobs, in
and out of the art area, that I have held.
They did provide me with some immediately marketable skills - I
walked out of my BA and got a job as a graphic designer immediately,
then switched to working in a photography store, and then to being a
professional photographer for a museum. All based on skills I
learned in my BA (undergraduate) program, but all also involving
additional skills learned by further study on my own.
I have held a range of jobs since those first three, and have
continued to expand my knowledge with reading, workshops, classes,
etc.
I have worked through a range of media, with metals being the most
recent - and I think the one that is turing out to be “it” for me.
It has only taken me nearly 30 years to find “it” though! But at no
point have I felt that my college and university times - and expense
I’m jealous of those on the list who have had the benefit of trade
school programs, or whatever they are properly called, such as the
New Approach School and Revere, or the traditional apprenticeship
system in some countries - but I would not willingly trade my
college/ university time for those. I want those AND the
college/university time!
My daughter is off in college in now, and I had hoped, before the
economy tanked on me, that this would be the time I could go do the
New Approach course, and get the skill sets I’m missing or weak on.
That remains a goal. You are never too old to learn!
Beth Wicker
Three Cats and a Dog Design Studio
and some small differences in temperatures and tool design, what would be so different from gold manufacturing?
Gold is the most malleable and ductile metal on Earth, not by a
little but by far. It is also impervious to all normal tarnish and
oxidation (that is, outside a shop or lab). The more gold one works,
the more you’ll realize how little resemblance other metals actually
have to it. EOM… Hans stands up and says, “That was me…”, which
I don’t care because it’s not personal, but it’s an oft-repeated
fallacy that metals are interchangeable. So, what? Steel? Aluminum?
Magnesium? Beryllium? Titanium? Lead? These are all interchangeable
and ANYTHING can be made with ANYTHING?!?!? Like most fallacies, you
just need to scratch a little deeper. The reasons we use steel as we
do and we use gold as we do is because they have the right properties
for the application.
Gold is valuable because of it’s properties - the value comes from
that, not vice versa. Now it’s also used FOR it’s value, but since
the beginning it was, “I want some of that buttery, malleable yellow
stuff and I’ll pay for it…” A Faberge egg is golden yellow to this
day (the golden ones, of course). If it were made in silver it would
be white and all the cracks and crevices would be black. Not the same
thing by any stretch of the imagination. You just need to put on your
thinking cap just a little…
Early on in this thread i commented from platform that screamed of
lack of dedicated opinion one way or another.
Following this thread for some time now, I am going to take a stand
on opinion and committment to my own personal opinion and state most
emphatically that every one who cares to enter the jewelry industry
as a career should get a college degree but not necessarily in
jewelry alone. People who would like to pursue jewelry should earn a
degree that covers business, money management, marketing language,
creative writing, science, chemistry art history & world literature,
etc… !
goo
much of the college experience translated well into a workshop
environment. I’ve had to curb bad habits (a pair of my diamond
tweezers was used for soldering) and show apprentices basic skills
that any school should have taught. I’ve been a mentor for three
young teens- starting from scratch is probably easier than
correcting bad techniques. I’ve also had some self starters who sort
of carved their own work routine out of the general chaos. It sort of
balanced out…
There are a number of avenues one can pursue to become a metalsmith.
The academic method, studying at a university, involves developing a
"vocabulary" of metalworking techniques, but with plenty of time
(think semesters) to accomplish the given project. The degree, I feel
is irrelevant.
Training in a commercial shop will give good practical experience,
and an ability to work quickly and efficiently. Emphasis will
probably not be in design. This experience will teach how to price
out work, and not spend days accomplishing what should take hours.
Many goldsmiths are self-trained, which works, but I feel some good
classes or workshops along the way are really vital.
However, being a bench jeweler, full time, is a very brutal and
difficult way to make a living.
The question, I think, is what is it you want your life-style to be
like? How creative can you be and earn a living doing it? The
answers are not easy, in this particular time in history. I know I
don’t have the answers.
Jay Whaley
Whaley Studios
While teaching workshops in Canada two weeks ago I was invited to
visit the Jewellery Program at George Brown College in Toronto. My
student Jerell Skirbol kindly arranged a meeting for me with the
Program Director, Wing Ki Chan, who took me on a personally guided
tour of the facilities and provided an in-depth look at the jewelry
program curriculum.
I also met and chatted briefly with two other jewelry faculty
members, Martha Glenny and Shona Kearney, and I had a chance to speak
with several of the students in each level of the program and observe
them at work in the various jewelry studios.
The college has an enviable history of 40 years and the goldsmithing
program is exceptionally well suited to providing a functional
education in preparation for a professional career in jewelry. There
are one, two, and three year program choices available. Students
learn to make real jewelry, high quality, well crafted, techically
challenging jewelry, using traditional methods and techniques
balanced and supported by inclusion of current technological
innovations in the field. Wing Ki tells me that a high percentage of
the graduating students remain active in the field as professional
makers producing fine work. Many of the members of the Metal Arts
Guild of Canada have come through this program.
I was impressed with the program emphasis on a solid foundation of
well developed practical skills and the expectation of highly
accomplished technical ability. The practical exercise projects
within the curriculum are advanced, and precision is prerequisite, as
it properly should be. The students I interacted with were focused,
enthusiastic, and engaged with the work. Their collective demeanor
illustrated dedication to the quality that we as professionals expect
to see in well executed jewelry.
I found this refreshing and also very promising as an alternative to
what is being taught in many university “Art” programs. The students
emerging
from this program are competent, well experienced, ready and able to
work at the bench, whether creating their own work as studio
artists, or seeking gainfull employment within any area of the
jewelry industry at large.
This particular jewelry program is certainly worth consideration for
those students who want college experience and are serious about
acquiring the real world skills and knowledge that will enable them
to be successful in a jewelry career.
Michael David Sturlin
http://michaelsturlinstudio.ganoksin.com/blogs/
Thank you Jay! I am a still a student at the Dutch goldsmiths
school; not a universtity though, but hard labour and practice. Your
answer to this treat was very helpfull!
Met vriendelijke groet,
Stephen
Ms. Wicker (Beth) made most of my points, especially about the
general education. My college education was in “hard” science and
management. However, I can use knowledge gained from multiple
courses to enjoy life. One point that has not been made is the
availability of funding to pay for college based courses that is not
available for the trade school / apprenticeship programs. My youngest
daughter is pursuing a career as a firefighter. If she went to the
state “fire school” she would have to pay for all the costs. By
attending the local community college fire science program, she
becomes eligible for grants, scholarships and loans. She can gain her
basic knowledge in school, then apply that in the future.
John
John Atwell Rasmussen, Ph.D., AJP
www.rasmussengems.com