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Shop Security - Guns and Robbery


#1

I haven’t been on this list long enough to know if this subject has
been broached.

I don’t carry a gun, although when I was younger I did. (I used to
work on Grand Ave. in Coconut Grove Florida…a rather rough street
in a fairly nice part of town. But still Miami.)

And Florida laws have now changed so that citizens have the right to
use deadly force to defend themselves.

But here in Tennessee in the Land of the Free, we do not have this
right.

I don’t know how to research the laws to discover if you have this
right in your state. I know from experience that if you ask a Police
Officer, he will tell you that you do not, regardless of the reality.
Thus is the nature of our relationship with our government…

But there are too many people serving life sentences in America’s
prisons for using deadly force (i.e., killing someone with a handgun
to defend themselves), and I strongly urge you to buy a can of
pepperspray and be prepared to give up some of your merchandise in
exchange (hopefully!) for your life.

And anyway, I don’t think I could comfortably live with the memory
of killing someone.

Ray


#2

Ray,

People have strong feelings one way or the other on this very
emotional topic. I grew up with guns and am very comfortable around
them, but I certainly don’t want one pointed at me or my loved ones.

But there are too many people serving life sentences in America's
prisons for using deadly force (i.e., killing someone with a
handgun to defend themselves) 

This may be true in some parts of the country, but in my experience
in the court system in my city and state, that is not true at all.
In my 20 years in the court system, there has never been an arrest,
indictment, trial, and certainly no prison terms for anyone
defending his/her business, home, family, automobile. As a matter of
fact, statistically, if an event like that occurs, we see a drop in
the number of indictments for burglary, armed robbery, carjackings.
It’s true that drop doesn’t last but maybe several court terms, but
there is a temporary drop in those crimes. And unfortunately, while
it is a good product and I do own some, pepper spray is useless
against someone on PCP. Our law enforcement found that out the hard
way.

I hope I’m never faced with a situation where I have to make that
kind of decision; but if it should occur, I know in my heart I’ll
defend, if at all possible, my merchandise, home, business, family,
security.

I didn’t want to start a debate but just wanted to point out that
not everyone who defends using deadly force would be serving life
sentences. But the key word is “defends.”

V.Cawthon


#3
And Florida laws have now changed so that citizens have the right
to use deadly force to defend themselves. 

Actually, the only thing about the law that has changed here in
Florida is the repeal of the “Castle Doctrine.” The "Castle Doctrine"
was the part of the law that specified that, if you are being
attacked or assaulted and can avoid the situation by going inside
your house (castle), apartment (castle), etc., and choose not to,
then you have broken the law and may be prosecuted for causing the
death of your assailant. The same doctrine includes any means of
avoiding the situation, including getting in your car and leaving, or
simply walking away. Today, the “Castle Doctrine” is no longer in
effect.

This does not automatically give Floridians the right to use deadly
force to defend themselves in any situation. You can bet your bottom
dollar that people who have shot another to death while defending
themselves in Florida still stand a fairly good chance of doing jail
time if their life was not in immediate danger when they pulled the
trigger.

But here in Tennessee in the Land of the Free, we do not have this
right. 

If your life, or the life of anyone else is in immediate danger, you
have the right to protect yourself and the public against an armed
person who intends to harm or kill another. That’s in any state of
the USA, including Tennessee. I spent nearly 20 years of my life,
including time in Desert Storm to insure that right.

I don't know how to research the laws to discover if you have this
right in your state. I know from experience that if you ask a
Police Officer, he will tell you that you do not, regardless of
the reality. Thus is the nature of our relationship with our
government... 

Every web site I could find (at least 20) lists Tennessee as a state
where any person who may legally purchase a handgun must be issued a
permit to carry, if requested. And I know from experience that, if
you ask a police officer about any given law, they are often under
the wrong impression. More than once have I been given bad
about local, state and federal law from policemen,
especially concerning firearm right-to-carry issues. I can’t blame
them; if I were a cop, I wouldn’t want people knowing they can carry
handguns, either.

I strongly urge you to buy a can of pepperspray and be prepared to
give up some of your merchandise in exchange (hopefully!) for your
life. 

During my military career, I was often drafted to augument shortages
in Security Police and Law Enforcement. At one point during training,
we were required to be sprayed directly in the eyes with pepper
spray. Not for purposes of cruelty, hazing or any other such
nonsense, but to illustrate the fact that anybody, even a regular
citizen who is NOT under the influence of PCP or other drugs can be
sprayed with it and easily function normally with the discomfort.
This was to let us know that we absolutely must NOT depend on it to
disable, indeed, to do much of anything, to anyone. Except a real
pansy. If you spray an assailant with pepper spray, you might as
well be shooting a gun, and missing. If you truly fear for your life,
forget the pepper spray and give the robber what they want.

James S. Duncan, G.G.
James in SoFL


#4

James,

At 6’ 1" and 268 pounds and being a former wrestler and martial
artist, you could hardly call me a pansy, but I had the pepper spray
experiment once and let me tell you, I was disabled for quite a
while. I may have gotten a huge dose, but it was miserable. I was
blind, couldn’t breathe, sick to my stomach, ended up just lying
down for two hours. Two days later my face was still red and swollen.
Reactions will vary greatly from one individual to another. It’s
possible to die from exposure to pepper spray, and people in
captivity have, as the capsaicin can cause the trachea to constrict
to the point where there is only enough of an airway left to, as the
manufacturers so blithely put it, “support life”. If you lie down
after exposure, as I did, your chances of an emergency event taking
place are greater. There are various formulations of the spray; some
are nastier than others. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but if you
have to use it, you have to. Just keep in mind that even little ol’
pepper spray carries a potential liability with it. Never mind
someone was trying to rob you, the law may end up on the side of the
robber. Who was that character that said “The law is a (sic) idiot ?”

Brian Corll
Brian Corll, Inc.
1002 East Simpson Street
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055


#5

Wow, Brian, it sounds like you had a very bad time of it with the
pepper spray. I do know that there are various mixtures of the
product, and I was sprayed twice; once while augumenting USAF LE
(Law Enforcement), and once during training as a reservist with the
Biloxi, MS Police Dept in order to qualify for carrying it on my Sam
Brown belt. These sprays are as strong as they come. A couple of the
guys and one female had a difficult time, but I never saw a reaction
like yours, which must have been hell.

But my real point is that it has been proven to my satisfaction that
pepper spray usually only catches an assailant by surprise and often
does little to disable them. I’m not convinced that the average
person will have as severe a reaction as you did. And as has been
mentioned, a robber who may be under the influence of drugs
(especially the crystal meth that is the craze today) will probably
lick their lips and order chips and salsa to go with it after they’ve
shot me and taken my money and goods.

As I said in my previous post, I’d advise anyone to forego the
pepper spray and just give up the goods. Don’t get me wrong, I’m 6’
2" and 210lbs with past MMA (mixed martial arts) training and am an
avid firearms enthusiast. People here know what I do for a living, I
am licensed to carry, and do so when I feel I must. But I also have
nearly 20 years of military training, including a good deal of police
training. There are situations when a personal firearm (or pepper
spray) can save your life, and others where it can cost you your
life. If a person doesn’t have an intimate knowledge of the range
(both close-up and distance) of the effective use of either weapon,
chances are they won’t live to hug their children again.

The other, very important consideration is: when you are faced with
a life-threatening situation, draw a firearm and point it at another
human being, can you really pull the trigger? Most people who go to
the trouble of training classes, fingerprinting, applications,
passport photos, etc., to obtain a concealed weapons permit will say
that they most certainly can pull that trigger. The reality is often
different. Even a moment’s hesitation will likely cost you your life.
If a robber is close enough for you to use a handgun, they are close
enough to get to your gun in that moment of indecision. Giving a
robber what they want will save your life more often than an
ill-timed display of a firearm.

That’s the point I was getting at in my original post. If you have
never pulled the trigger on another human being, do you really know
that you could? If not, pepper spray might disable an assailant, but
despite sensitive reactions by some people, I don’t believe the
majority are as severely affected as the public thinks. Give and
live.

James S. Duncan, G.G.
James in SoFL

P.S. Florida has not become the “Wild West” that the media portrayed
when the “Castle Doctrine” was repealed. Illegal display of a firearm
(i.e., showing it off, or threatening somebody with it) in public is
punishable by up to $5,000 and 5 years in jail. Illegally discharging
a firearm in public is punishable by up to $10,000 and 10 years in
the joint.


#6

I know this thread is, at least at this point, about pepper spray,
but I want to address the header, “Guns and Robbery”. Statistically,
what happens when the “robbee” pulls a gun on the “robber”, the
robber takes the gun away and shoots them with it. By the way,
statistically the most common famous last words are, “Go ahead,
shoot.” They do. Years ago some collegues of ours, a manufacturer in
Albuquerque, was robbed. They pulled out guns and started shooting,
and in the end both of the owner’s sons were killed. Unless you are
an
ex Navy Seal, or trained by the CIA, you have to remember the element
of surprise. That is, you are not surprising them, they are
surprising you. Generally speaking, by the time you realize what’s
going on, there’s nothing for you to do but put your hands up. I was
robbed once as a teenager working at a gas station. I looked up, and
there was nothing to do but open the cash drawer. It’s all well and
good to sit around daydreaming about heroic deeds, but when you are
looking down the barrel of a 9mm with someone who just doesn’t care
about you behind it, it’s quite different, believe me.

http://www.donivanandmaggiora.com


#7

I would like to add that some people confuse the right to own a gun
and use it to protect one’s “castle”–the title of this thread
assumes that you are inside your “castle”–and the right to
"concealed carry," i.e. the right to carry a gun on one’s person (or
even have one nearby, loaded and accessible). I know that some US
states (Florida is one) will issue concealed carry permits.
California will not, but my county (Mendocino) does issue them. So
this might need to be searched for by county.

Someone who uses a gun in defense of self or other outside the
"castle," and does not have a concealed carry permit, can definitely
be prosecuted. Whether or not s/he is convicted and sentenced is up
to a jury and judge.

I haven’t followed this stuff carefully, although I do remember
reading a study that showed a significant drop in violent crime in
Florida after the concealed carry law went into effect. My estranged
husband did follow it. He works at an extremely dangerous job, in a
county that does not allow concealed carry, and the clinic in which
he works is not considered a “castle.” He has actually disarmed
people with guns and knives, at great risk to his own life. Strangely
enough, jewelry store owners can legally shoot someone trying to rob
them, but therapists can’t legally shoot someone threatening to kill
a bunch of kids.

Lisa Orlando, Albion, CA, US


#8

Orchidians,

Having been in the jewelry biz for nearly 30 years (started when I
was 12) I have, like many of you, heard both sides of the story when
it comes to defending oneself w/ a firearm. It seems we only hear one
side of the story from industry insiders (trade mags, JVC alerts etc)
and that is this: “guns…just don’t use them”.I remember in the
early 90’s, the story of a West hollywood jeweler who sucessfully
defended himself not once but 2 times from bad guys.If I remember
correctly, he killed 2 the 1st time & 1 the 2nd time. For those of
you uncomfortable w/ a firearm, there are alternatives. Taser (based
in Tucson, AZ) is one such alternative. It is considered a
"non-lethal" defense. As for needing a “concealed” weapon permit, it
many states, you can carry it concealed without special permits,
because of it’s “non-lethal” status. (check with your local law
enforcement agency)

My point is simple: You HAVE alternatives that don’t require ending
someones life. You can, in some states, purchase small bean bags
that load into a shotgun. Again…generally considered a safer
alternative to “unloading” buckshot in your store & loyal customers.
The assumption by many in the industry (like JVC) is that we’re all
just a bunch of hick, hayseed types, and that, yes, you should even
throw away your pocket knives because YOU JUST CAN’T BE TRUSTED! To
those I say “BOVINE EXCREMENT!” Some of us have law enforcement
backgrounds. Some of us are actively involved as reserve peace
officers. Give me a break. If you’re comfortable w/ a firearm & know
your way around it…use it. The alternatives are there as
well…including the right NOT to use anything at all!

Walt Teats
American Goldworks


#9
Unless you are an ex Navy Seal, or trained by the CIA, you have
to remember the element of surprise. That is, you are not
surprising them, they are surprising you. Generally speaking, by
the time you realize what's going on, there's nothing for you to do
but put your hands up. I was robbed once as a teenager working at a
gas station. I looked up, and there was nothing to do but open the
cash drawer. It's all well and good to sit around daydreaming about
heroic deeds, but when you are looking down the barrel of a 9mm
with someone who just doesn't care about you behind it, it's quite
different, believe me. 

This speaks as directly to my point as possible. To obtain a carry
permit here in Florida, unless you’re ex military, law enforcement,
etc., you are required to take a course in safe firearms handling and
situational scenarios where a person may need to use a firearm in
their defense. It is one thing to practice at a firing range and in a
classroom. It is quite another to actually experience it in reality.
The average person will always be better off opening the cash drawer
or handing over the wallet/purse.

Self defense martial arts classes are the same. Like Mr. Myagi once
told Daniel san: “Bah, somebody else always know more.”

James S. Duncan, G.G.
James in SoFL


#10
If your life, or the life of anyone else is in immediate danger,
you have the right to protect yourself and the public against an
armed person who intends to harm or kill another. That's in any
state of the USA, including Tennessee. 

And you have the right to defend yourself in court when you exercise
that right. The problem here stated is that upon the death of another
the shooter becomes suspect and must then prove he took the others’
life lawfully. It’s, I would imagine, pretty difficult to prove this,
and if the prosecuter, and/or judge is up for reelection (judges are
elected in TN as opposed to appointed in FL) you can be pretty sure
they will both be campaigning from the bench and “tough on crime” is
an important reelection campaign point. Depending upon many factors,
not least of which the jewelers appearance (i.e., tatoos, long hair,
etc.) the jeweler may be the perfect patsy for this judges campaign.
IMO, I’d rather give up the jewelry/money. I can make more. And even
if the jury finds your way, have you priced a good lawyer lately? It
will probably be far cheaper to relinquish your propery to the perp.

Every web site I could find (at least 20) lists Tennessee as a
state where any person who may legally purchase a handgun must be
issued a permit to carry, if requested. And I know from experience
that, if you ask a police officer about any given law, they are
often under the wrong impression. More than once have I been given
bad about local, state and federal law from policemen,
especially concerning firearm right-to-carry issues. I can't blame
them; if I were a cop, I wouldn't want people knowing they can
carry handguns, either. 

If I were a cop I would understand that an armed and knowlegable
citizen makes my job easier. But in my experience, most LEO’s view
the
world as “us vs, them.” ‘Us’ being the police, and ‘them’ being
everyone else.

During my military career, I was often drafted to augument
shortages in Security Police and Law Enforcement. At one point
during training, we were required to be sprayed directly in the
eyes with pepper spray. Not for purposes of cruelty, hazing or any
other such nonsense, but to illustrate the fact that anybody, even
a regular citizen who is NOT under the influence of PCP or other
drugs can be sprayed with it and easily function normally with the
discomfort. This was to let us know that we absolutely must NOT
depend on it to disable, indeed, to do much of anything, to anyone.
Except a real pansy. If you spray an assailant with pepper spray,
you might as well be shooting a gun, and missing. If you truly fear
for your life, forget the pepper spray and give the robber what
they want. 

Well that’s scary!

So the gunshop dood who sold me that can of pepperspray mixed with
’?’ (black can, safety thing on top) was funnin’ me to make a sale?

Ray


#11

Lisa,

Strangely enough, jewelry store owners can legally shoot someone
trying to rob them, but therapists can't legally shoot someone
threatening to kill a bunch of kids. 

This statement is incorrect. In MOST states, but not all, it is
unlawful to use deadly force to stop the theft of property. In ALL
states, it is lawful to use deadly force to prevent the commission
of a homicide or attempted homicide in progress. A threat is just a
threat, but a physical attempt to carry out the threat is something
else again. In some states, if you are threatened with great bodily
harm, you must make every attempt to flee, even at great risk to
yourself. In some sates it is lawful to use deadly force to prevent
the commission of ANY felony (!!).

Just because something is possibly lawful does not mean you might
not get sued for your actions by any survivors or next of kin,
however. California has succeeded in seizing the constitutional
rights of its citizens under the guise of “safety”, deeming.22
rifles assault weapons and essentially leaving its citizens to be
the fair prey of gun-toting criminals. Florida has seen fit to
uphold its’ citizens constitutional right to keep and bear arms,
and, you’re right, when they passed their right-to-carry law,
violent crime dropped nearly 40% in two years. Criminals don’t like
to rob or rape citizens who might own a gun or might even be
carrying one…better to head someplace where the state has made
its citizens defenseless…

But your advice was wrong. Please be sure to consult your California
attorney before shooting a jewelry store robber, as the state of
California will find you guilty of manslaughter and the Ninth
Circuit Court will uphold your conviction in true leftist style.

Wayne Emery


#12

A shop owner in Columbus, Ohio was shoot and killed by two young
people. He did openly carry a gun while in the shop and had a conceal
carry permit for other times like going to the bank. He had a guard
dog Behind the counter and lived up stairs from the shop.

He owned and ran a gun shop since the early 50s and neber had a
problem. This lets you know that no one is safe any where.

Jerry


#13

I live near Harrisburg, PA, which has an extremely high crime rate,
especially robbery. A prominent local jeweler in Harrisburg had two
"customers" come in one day, a couple of guys in their 20’s, who
pulled guns and demanded that the jeweler clean out his display
cases. The jeweler got started cleaning out the cases, and then
pulled out the pistol he kept under the counter and shot both of the
robbers, wounding them. They’re now in the state pen. The jeweler is
still in business. But I think he was one of the lucky ones.
Sometimes the robbers are quicker on the trigger than you are. He
just happened to catch them off guard. No charges were filed against
the jeweler, by the way.

Brian Corll
Brian Corll, Inc.
1002 East Simpson Street
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055


#14
I was robbed once as a teenager working at a gas station. I looked
up, and there was nothing to do but open the cash drawer. It's all
well and good to sit around daydreaming about heroic deeds, but
when you are looking down the barrel of a 9mm with someone who
just doesn't care about you behind it, it's quite different,
believe me. 

I agree. When I was in grade school the father of my best friend was
killed during a service station robbery. He tried to be a hero and
was killed for $ 85 of his boss’s money. I remember all of the adults
sitting around talking about the incident and describing him as a
foolish man not a hero.

James Cantrell


#15

My experience

I was trying a new location in another state. I was working late one
night as is often the case in start-up and twice someone tried to
break down the back door, which is steel. With me INSIDE! Local
police seemed to poo poo the incidents, both times they responded.
Determined burglars came back after the first time the cops showed
up. Two days later my neighbor in the strip mall suffered an armed
robbery and was pistol whipped (It was later discovered it was the
same gang, as they confessed after capture on another issue). So I
armed myself, which distressed me that I felt compelled to do that. I
lived out my lease, which thankfully was a short one and chalked it
up to experience.

My viewpoint

Faced with an armed robbery be cooperative, let them have the goods.
But try to situate yourself in a way that reduces the likelihood of
problems. Don’t be an attractive easy target. But be prepared for the
unexpected.


#16

Hi all,

Florida Castle Doctrine

This is the oddest forum for this string; however, Florida’s Castle
Doctrine was signed into law last year by Jeb Bush, it was not
repealed. The basic aspects of the Castle Doctrine (as described in
America’s 1st Freedom, April 2006, pages 33-34) are:

  1. “One, the Castle Doctrine establishes in law the presumption that
    a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied
    vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm. Therefore, a
    person may use force to stop the intrusion.”

  2. “Two, the Castle Doctrine removes the ‘duty to retreat’ if you
    are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have
    to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked, which
    in many cases could offer an assailant an easier target. Instead, you
    may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with
    forceincluding deadly forceif you reasonably believe it is necessary
    to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.”

  3. “Three, the Castle Doctrine provides that persons using force
    authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force. It
    also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for
    injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.”


#17

Hi Walt,

Taser (based in Tucson, AZ) is one such alternative. 

You got the state right, but Taser is up in the Phoenix area.

Dave


#18

Hi Wayne,

I don’t think I’m wrong that, while it may be lawful to use deadly
force to stop a homicide in progress, you can still go to jail for
unlawful possession of the weapon you used. However, I’m surprised
that the law has changed so much in California that the guy in West
Hollywood, mentioned by another poster as shooting robbers in the
early 90s, would now go to jail.

I think the issue for many of us–and you might agree–is that, when
someone pulls a gun on you, you have no reason to believe it’s going
to be your money (diamonds, etc.) or your life. It could all too
easily be both, especially given California’s three strikes law,
which gives criminals a particularly good reason not to leave
witnesses alive.

Lisa Orlando
Albion, CA, US


#19
I agree. When I was in grade school the father of my best friend
was killed during a service station robbery. He tried to be a hero
and was killed for $ 85 of his boss's money. I remember all of the
adults sitting around talking about the incident and describing him
as a foolish man not a hero. 

I’m not so sure everyone sits around thinking about being a hero.
But you have to try to think or plan what you will do, because when
the situation arises, if it should arise, if there is no plan or
thought or preparation, will you freeze?

There are just as many times people who do hand over the “goods” or
"stuff" who are either pistol whipped or killed. It depends on the
situation and it certainly depends on the criminal’s intent. A store
employee was killed here not long ago. He handed over the cash
drawer money, the safe money and according to the video recording
made no threatening move to the armed criminal. He was shot anyway.

A friend’s mother went to the bank on a Friday and cashed her
paycheck. She was getting in her car and a young man with a .38
pointed the gun at her and told her he wanted her money. She looked
at him and said, “Young man, this is my money, I earned it, and
you’re not going to get it. Go get yourself a job and get off the
street.” According to eyewitnesses, the guy was so dumbfounded he
just turned and ran. Everyone said she was crazy for doing that. She
just said he looked to inexperienced and like he needed a good
scolding. That’s not going to work every time either.

Situations are all different; criminals are all different.

V.Cawthon


#20

As we were taught when I studied the martial arts, always run from a
fight. If there’s an armed guy in front of you who wants the goods,
unless you’re the fastest draw west or east of the Pecos, give 'im
the goods. Two many people behind counters have ended up dead,
including the mini-market up the street.

Brian Corll
Brian Corll, Inc.
1002 East Simpson Street
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055