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Salt and vinegar pickle


#1

Two weeks ago, I ran out of sodium bisulfate, and no time to order
it, made vinegar/salt pickle with some preoxide. Works very well, but
leaves a dark gray stain on sterling. Does well well with brass,
copper, nickel, but tends to discolor sterling. The ratio I was using
was 1/3 water in crockpot, 1/3 cheap white vinegar added to water,
and about 1/4 cup of Celtic gray salt (yes, it was pricy salt, but
all I had in my cupboard), and some preoxide to remove the copper
smut off nickel and brass…

Just in case anyone is curious about a more “green” pickle. For me,
it’s emergency pickle, for I’m really a sodium bisulfate gal when it
comes to pickling. If you don’t mind your studio smelling vinegary,
then it’s a win-win situation. Recipe came from a Polish-American
armor maker who got the recipe from an ancient Polish armor-maker in
Poland. I figured out the proportions by trial and error.

I have no idea if it will dissolve steel, but if you are game, try
it.

Joy


#2
more "green" pickle 

Just curious. Why is salt and vinegar more “green” than sodium
bisulphate?

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY


#3

Another quick min a pinch and even everyday pickle is citric acid. If
you run out, throw some Vitamin C pills into the crock pot. Can’t get
greener than that. If it is just for copper, I re purpose Next time
when you go to McDonald’s ask for copper cleaner along with your
fries. One of the best copper cleaners is ketsup. Anyone who has made
a tomato sauce in a copper pot will know this one. It helps to warm
it though. Has to do with rate of reaction.

Aggie the cheap pickler


#4

Sodium Bisulfate is sold at most hardware stores and pool/spa supply
stores, also Walmarts.


#5

Why is salt and vinegar more “green”

Because simple food grade components that are available from a wide
variety of sources are more “green” than a chemical produced using a
somewhat toxic sulfuric acid reaction process done in a handful of
industrial chemical production sites.

In and of itself, Sodium Bi-sulphate is pretty benign, but the
process of making it uses high temperatures, and creates things like
hydrogen chloride and hydrochloric acid as a left over (while both
are chemically useful, they have their own toxin issues…).


#6

hello,

If you run out, throw some Vitamin C pills into the crock pot.
Can't get greener than that. If it is just for copper 

Knowing that little children, poor people and very ill persons in
this world can use vitamine C in their daily live, I refuse to even
give it a try! It is such a waste of sources when you know that other
cheap chemicals do the same job. This has nothing to do with beeing
green people,

No thanks that is not something I’m going to try. I’m not even
thinking about passing this kind of to others. I’m realy
sorry but this is how I am.

Pedro


#7
Why is salt and vinegar more "green" Because simple food grade
components that are available from a wide variety of sources are
more "green" than a chemical produced using a somewhat toxic
sulfuric acid reaction process done in a handful of industrial
chemical production sites. 

I thought “green” was about energy usage. There are two primary
methods of manufacturing NaHSO4. One is a low temperature reaction
where the only byproduct is water, which is of course easy to reuse.
The other involves heat, but again, the HCL coproduct is useful in
itself. Neither method inherently produces waste.

Salt is also a high-temperature process, unless you use only
evaporated sea salt or unrefined mined salt (which takes much energy
to dig up). Vinegar production entails lots of waste product.

The point is that determining the energy footprint of a product is
not a simple matter. For example, it turns out that the ethanol mixed
with gasoline actually takes more energy to produce than the oil that
it “saves”, not to mention raising the price of foodstuffs. That sort
of thing happens when bureaucrats make technical pronouncements.

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY


#8
If you run out, throw some Vitamin C pills into the crock pot.
Can't get greener than that. If it is just for copper Knowing that
little children, poor people and very ill persons in this world can
use vitamine C in their daily live, 

Three thoughts. First off, the original posting here is wrong.
Citric acid is used as a pickle. If you run out, use lemon juice.
Vitamin C is not citric acid, it’s ascorbic acid. Not the same thing.
I’m not sure whether it would work as a pickle, but just understand
it’s not citric acid.

Also, Alonzo, while I laud your care for misuse of resources, do
please understand that vitamin C is made synthetically, at very low
cost, and in large quantities in many source nations around the
world. If there are people who do not have it available, it’s not due
to a shortage of actual supply anywhere in the world. It may be that
nobody brings it to certain populations, but that’s not due to a
shortage of the vitamin, but rather, a shortage of the political will
or finances to bring it where needed.

And finally, a deficit of vitamin C causes the disease scurvy. That
is very rare these days. It was most common with sea faring folks
who’s food supply included no fresh vegetables or fruits, but often,
just dried meats and grains. These days, that’s not the case. More,
in very many of the populations where poverty and shortage of food or
nutrients exists, what often does exist is those same fruits and
vegetables and plants that also supply vitamin C naturally. When
subsistance agriculture supports a population, often the main
sources of food are those plants, and while there may be nutrition
deficits, vitamin C is not normally the problem. Usually, the big
problems are not enough other macro nutrients, and in particular,
simply enough nutrition and calories to live. Then there are
shortages of medicines, vaccines, insect nets, clean water, and
freedom from violence…

Peter


#9

Al, green is about energy usage but it is not only about energy
usage. Chemicals that can be disposed of without harming the
environment are considered green as are materials that are
biodegradable. Our blue bags and blue bins on garbage day are blue -
but they are helping a green lifestyle. I am now pondering what you
meant by saying that vinegar production entails a lot of waste- waste
of what? If it is made from wine which is made from grapes, there is
no reason that the residual grape material should be wasted - it
makes excellent pig feed. Wineries are also beginning to keep a few
pigs handy - they wander freely and fertilize the land that is not
being used to grow grapes - and I for one enjoy the “other white
meat”. Goats are being used in some areas to cut the grass verges at
the sides of highways - I am a little concerned about the impurities
that might be found in the goats’ milk with that diet - the goatherd
is hired and given the right to graze his goats which produces food
for people. Windmills are also green energy because they use the wind

  • no one seems to take into account the materials and energy used to
    build them and keep them maintained. As Kermit said - “it’s not easy
    being green”. We humans go on learning.

#10
the ethanol mixed with gasoline actually takes more energy to
produce than the oil that it "saves", not to mention raising the
price of foodstuffs. 

I don’t think this is quite true, but even if it is, ethanol comes
from corn, which is a renewable resource. Petroleum is not. Better to
pay more, if necessary, to use renewables, IMO.


#11

Hello Rowe,

Also, Alonzo, while I laud your care for misuse of resources, do
please understand that vitamin C is made synthetically, at very
low cost, and in large quantities in many source nations around the
world. If there are people who do not have it available, it's not
due to a shortage of actual supply anywhere in the world. It may
be that nobody brings it to certain populations, but that's not due
to a shortage of the vitamin, but rather, a shortage of the
political will or finances to bring it....

I know that vitamine ‘C’ is made synthetically,

Many people around the world don’t have anything and can’t even pay
for very low costs. You would be surprised of the numbers of them!

People with aids, heavy smokers, children, fastfood orientated
persons and ordinary stressed people -maybe even you- need vitamine C
more then a bath of pickle. Take it yourself and get the benefit out
of it or give it to homeless ones. I believe that many victims of the
Sandy storm and the poor ones from Haiti require vitamine C at this
very moment to support their body rather then tossing it in a bath of
pickle.

You don’t have to look far for a better usage of this very cheap
medicine i.e. food supply, that’s my message. Your message is ‘don’t
care about it, it’s cheap so it’s ok’

Politicals do whatever they like to do and not all country’s do what
they are supposed to do for the best of their citizens. That’s not a
good reason to cover the missuse of a medicine/food supply, cheap or
not.

“And finally, a deficit of vitamin C causes the disease scurvy. That
is very rare these days.”

Completely small viewed vision!
Ever heard of vitamin C deficiency anemia, Crohn’s disease,
gingivitis, auto-immune
diseases due to lack of vit C, and many more?

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zs2

Understand that I’m not attacking you but I strongly do critisize
your way of minimizing the importance of vit C, synthetic or not.

Have fun and enjoy
Pedro Alonso


#12
Citric acid is used as a pickle. If you run out, use lemon juice.
Vitamin C is not citric acid, it's ascorbic acid. Not the same
thing. 

If difference between citric acid and ascorbic acid matters, why
than you ignoring the difference between citric acid and sulfuric
acid, which is the true pickle. Sulfuric acid or more precisely weak
solution of it, was chosen for many practical reasons. Citric acid
does not even come close to it’s properties. Just because some new
age “goldsmiths” using it, it does not make it right. Pedro’s
observation on misuse is 100% on point, but there are technical
reasons as well.

Leonid Surpin
www.studioarete.com


#13
I don't think this is quite true, but even if it is, ethanol comes
from corn, which is a renewable resource. Petroleum is not. Better
to pay more, if necessary, to use renewables 

False on more points than I can count ! Here is just few of them:
Corn or any agricultural product is not renewable on
multigenerational time scale. Soil gets exhausted and after repeated
planting stops growing at all. Use of fertilizer simply delays the
inevitable. Using corn for ethanol is robing future generation of
food. Petroleum is truly renewable ! It is a product of geological
processes. Old wife’s tales about fossil origin of petroleum has
been debunked many years ago.

Leonid Surpin
www.studioarete.com


#14

NOTHING to do with jewellery…BUT very cool:

…there is a genetic glitch in humans, guinea pigs and fruit bats
– all mammals that do NOT product their own vitamin C…ALL other
mammals do…in stress tests on dogs, dogs were able to produce up
to 10,000 mg. of Vit. C to combat the cellular effects of stress.

Vitamin C is vital for collagen synthesis – the ‘glue’ that holds
us together, the health of the adrenal glands (instrumental in our
’flight’ or fight mechanism – and is this day and age, the poor ol’
adrenals certainly take a beating.)

…AND the highest concentration of Vit. C in the human body is in
the eye-ball!

RDI’s put Vit. C at a dose of 60 mg. – woefully LOW! – yes, that
amount can help prevent scurvy, but that’s about it.

As a water soluble vitamin, it will ‘hitch a ride’ with caffeinated
beverages…and eventually, ya, you know…go down the toilet.

cheers,
Audrey
manager of Health Plus Nutriiton Centre by day…novice jeweller by
night…


#15

p.s… I use citric acid for my pickle…It works GREAT! (and yes,
Vit. C is ascorbic acid)

Audrey


#16

“Green” is a combination of using locally available materials;
recycled materials; non-toxic materials; and energy efficiency. The
energy component has several parts - the energy used in creating the
material and the energy used it getting it to the user, as well as
the energy required to use it.

So “green” is actually quite complex, and often things that appear
"green" upon further research turn out to be less “green” than
something that initially appeared to be not-green.

I tried a salt and vinegar pickle from a recipe I found on the
internet when I ran out of Rio pickle recently, and while it worked
ok I did not feel it worked as well or as fast as the Rio pickle, and
it stank to high heaven! Was SO happy when my Rio pickle shipment
came in!

Beth Wicker
Three Cats and a Dog Design Studio
bethwicker.com


#17

On the surface, using ethanol looks good and corn is renewable.
Going deeper opens a myriad of problems… quoting from the Harvard
Review by David Pimentel…Unfortunately, the United States
continues to produce corn ethanol because politicians find it
politically useful, though the fuel is far from environmentally
sustainable and a viable source for energy independence, as it uses
up more energy to produce than it provides. Corn Ethanol In the
United States, ethanol from corn constitutes 99 percent of all
biofuels. To produce corn ethanol, corn is finely ground and
approximately 15 liters of water is added to 2.7 kg of ground corn.
After fermentation, to obtain a liter of 95 percent ethanol from the
mixture of 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent water, 1 liter of
ethanol must be extracted from approximately 10 liters of the
ethanol/water mixture. To be mixed with gasoline, the 95 percent
ethanol must be further processed to remove more water, requiring
additional fossil energy inputs to achieve 99.5 percent pure ethanol.
Thus, 22 pounds of corn grain is required to produce 1 gallon of
ethanol. To fill the fuel tank of a SUV vehicle with corn ethanol
requires a total of 660 pounds of corn or food. This is enough corn
to feed two people in a developing country for an entire year.
Furthermore, to produce corn ethanol, 46 percent more fossil energy
is required to produce a liter of ethanol than than is yielded. Oil
therefore must be imported to produce ethanol. As a result, the cost
to produce 1 liter of corn ethanol is US$1.05 per liter or US$3.95
per gallon. The corn grain itself accounts for most of the economic
and energy inputs to produce the ethanol. For example, it requires
approximately 7,090 liters of fossil energy equivalents to produce
3,330 liters of ethanol.

What is not growing at an exponential rate is the amount of usable
land on this planet. And taking land out of production of food to
produce fuel means corn prices are driven higher for food and more
people go hungry. Like so many political fixes, it sounds easy. Not.
Unfortunately this is not an area of opinion - people die when they
go hungry for long enough – fact.

Barbara on the Island where autumn is holding on with a tight hold
(thankfully) but Mother Nature is walking with Jack Frost with Old
Man Winter waiting at the next corner.


#18

Linus Pauling was right, and wrong. We do need Vit C Pedro, but not
to the extent you are attaching.

The biggest problems we face with vit. and minerals not being
obtained and causing problems are both calcium which is being
eliminated due to the high acid content of many diets even homeless.

Next is the lack of vit. D. Too many are not getting outside enough
to get what is needed to compensate for the growing lack in our diets
of this essential vit. Many sources will give us Vit. C today. It is
not limited to citrus. Now look at carbonated drinks and high
caffeine intake. Each of those limits the bodies uptake calcium. It is
one of the big three essential have to have or we have many
neurological problems, or die.

each synapse in the body is bridged by three chemicals that work in
concert to conduct the nerve activity. They are Potassium, calcium and
sodium. But calcium is only up taken about 10% without Vit D and
magnesium.

More and more people are beginning to have low sodium levels. Yet we
tout lowering if not eliminating salt intake. More people sit in front
of a computer and don’t go outside like we did in the bad old days. I
would worry much more about the lack of Vit. D and calcium than
using Vit c in a pickle pot. Especially since Vit. C is renewable. The
manufacturer of said vitamin, also takes the waste and re purposes
it. Frankly I’ve donated to helping the poor world wide get food and
clean drinking water, not Vit. C.


#19

Leonid,

False on more points than I can count ! Here is just few of them:
Corn or any agricultural product is not renewable on
multigenerational time scale. Soil gets exhausted and after
repeated planting stops growing at all. Use of fertilizer simply
delays the inevitable. Using corn for ethanol is robing future
generation of food. Petroleum is truly renewable ! It is a product
of geological processes. Old wife's tales about fossil origin of
petroleum has been debunked many years ago. 

Go live and work on a real farm! Crop rotation my friend. Plant one
year a nice field of alfalfa which is nitrogen fixing and you have a
field that will grow corn for the next couple of years before rotating
again. Yep know this well from growing up on a farm in Herman
Nebraska. Crop rotation has been going on since the late 30’s See we
learned long ago on farms in this country how not to deplete our
soils. I personally had to take care of 2000 darn chickens I shoveled
enough chicken crap to last a life time when I was young. They may
have ranged free during the days, but at night they were in their
coop roosting. That nice little nitrogen rich mess I shoveled also got
put on the fields. We also occasionally cleaned the barns and hog
houses and added that to the mix. Interesting fact, chicken shit is
hot. Which means it is too rich in ammonia’s without curing. It
needed a year to lose it’s potency Now rich cattle manure and hog
turds are fine the first year. I bet no one on this board was
expecting to get a lesson on shit. finally on this subject today’s
soil in the Midwest and plain states of the USA have a better level of
nutrients. In chemistry classes one thing we did find out is that
commercial fertilizers are of the same composition as the organic
kind. What is different is the commercial has been broken down to the
point the uptake by the plants is increased and quicker. What I would
never agree with is the toxic pesticides that get used.

Oil came from both dino remains and vegetal matter and algaes. It is
like a well aged peat bog if we could take the peat and pressure it
into oil. But until we can figure out how to do that, petroleum is
finite. At least at our consumption levels.

Citric acid is used as a pickle. If you run out, use lemon juice.
Vitamin C is not citric acid, it's ascorbic acid. Not the same
thing. 

The primary source of ascorbic acid is from citrus crops in
particular their peels On a PH scale citric acid/ascorbic acid is very
weak and closer to 7. Sulphuric acid is a strong acid non
concentrated it can be a ph1. The more dilute it is like what we use
for pickle, the less acidic it is raising the ph level.
Citric/ascorbic even the recipe that has been given here of the lemon
and vinegar, is much easier to dispose of. All you have to do is flush
it down the toilet. Side effect it also helps to clean the toilet.
These mild acids become dual purposed. Better than the junk they put
together to sell us for cleaning toilets.

Vinegar even in wine starts from air borne contaminates. The scum
that builds is called a “mother” The vinegar in the Scandinavian
countries is much stronger than what we have in the USA. Lemon juice,
is in part citric acid. Lemon peels and even potato peels were once
used to clean metals in particular brass. The peel has the highest
concentration. Tomatoes also are high in ascorbic acid. That is why
if you cook in copper pots and your sauce boils over a bit, it leaves
a bright clean trail on the pot.

Depending on the concentration of the acid and it’s ph level, just
about any acid will clean metal. I would avoid uric acids. In
Renaissance times they were used to produce a nice green patina. The
stronger the acid the quicker it cleans, but it is more hazardous to
work with. I would rather see people who are not familiar with how to
handle acids, used the mild stuff. It takes longer, but how many
people have had vinegar and lemon juice explode as they added water
to it? Think what would happen if someone took ph 1 sulphuric acid
and added the water to it instead of adding the acid to the water?
Even the fumes from the sulphuric acid in dilute form are not good.
Using vinegar and lemon juice will make it smell like a real pickle
factory.

Aggie - the Danish born, farmers daughter! No longer shoveling real
shit but the virtual variety.


#20

Barbara you go girl. You hit it right on the head. As a Senator from
Nebraska said in the 60’s, “How can a politician know about farms or
ranches if he has never had cow shit on his shoes!”

A really renewable energy source that I think is in either Minnesota
or Michigan, is the chicken farm that captures the manure to turn it
into a power plant. Even the the TV show Dirty Jobs highlighted a
dairy farmer that did the same thing.

The other old lady, Aggie