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My BIG question


#1

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

       Richard Laspada

#2

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

orchid@ganoksin.com

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up
polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.


#3

At 01:56 PM 10/9/96 +0000, you wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up

polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

Nope, not in my case, I have actually looked under a microscope after going
as far as the tripoli and NO pits, proceeded to red rouge-PITS. This doesn’t
happen all the time but enough that I think there is something to it. I know
it is true if something is not soldered well to begin with it will must
certainly
be obvious later. Has anyone else noticed this? I’m really starting to wonder
about myself now

              Richard Laspada

#4

Richard Laspada wrote:

At 01:56 PM 10/9/96 +0000, you wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up

polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

Nope, not in my case, I have actually looked under a microscope after going
as far as the tripoli and NO pits, proceeded to red rouge-PITS. This doesn’t
happen all the time but enough that I think there is something to it. I know
it is true if something is not soldered well to begin with it will must
certainly
be obvious later. Has anyone else noticed this? I’m really starting to wonder
about myself now

                  Richard Laspada

orchid@ganoksin.com

I have noticed that some of my joints do show pits when soldering, but I
think it has something to do with the fact that solder is now cadmium
free…M. Gilger


#5

M.G wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

orchid@ganoksin.com

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up
polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

orchid@ganoksin.com

My thinking here is that the red rouge is more course than the yellow.I
always use the yellow anyway.Also the pits are probably caused by a lack
of cleanliness in the flux.Bits of metal or carbon possibly are finding
their way into the flux or solder and causing the pits.Another possible
cause is that there is rouge or that the torch is incorrectly adjusted
giving too much oxygen to the flame and causing the pitting…Gavin


#6

Richard Laspada wrote:

At 01:56 PM 10/9/96 +0000, you wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up

polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

Nope, not in my case, I have actually looked under a microscope after going
as far as the tripoli and NO pits, proceeded to red rouge-PITS. This doesn’t
happen all the time but enough that I think there is something to it. I know
it is true if something is not soldered well to begin with it will must
certainly
be obvious later. Has anyone else noticed this? I’m really starting to wonder
about myself now

                  Richard Laspada

orchid@ganoksin.com

I have experienced this and still think in my case it was contamination
from a soldering block I was using…Also note to clean the object to be
soldered in an ultrasonic or at least with ammonia and a tooth
brush…Gavin


#7

Gavin, thanks for the last letter, makes sense.


#8

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up
polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

My experience suggests that the solder is indeed a little soft than the
alloy. Just continues to make good sense to close up the seam as close as
possible to flush before soldering and polishing against the grain.
Bruce

http://www.knight-hub.com/manmtndense/bhh3.htm
e-mail: @Bruce_Holmgrain
snail mail: POB 7072, McLean, VA 22106-7972, U.S.A.


#9

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

My experience suggests that the solder is indeed a little soft than the
alloy. Just continues to make good sense to close up the seam as close as
possible to flush before soldering and polishing against the grain.
Bruce

Another thing that should be mentioned if anyone new to goldsmithing is
following this thread is not to heat the solder any longer than necessary to
do the job properly. Overheating the solder WILL burn it up, leaving pits also!

                Richard Laspada

#10

Hi Richard

I have never noticed red rouge pulling out solder and pitting it, and
I’ve polished uncounted thousands of pieces over the last 25 years. What
I HAVE noticed is you don’t SEE the pits until you rouge, they were
there the whole time! My two cents worth is that you review your
soldering technique, it sounds like you’re burning the solder.

Gavin Gilmore wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

At 01:56 PM 10/9/96 +0000, you wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up

polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

Nope, not in my case, I have actually looked under a microscope after going
as far as the tripoli and NO pits, proceeded to red rouge-PITS. This doesn’t
happen all the time but enough that I think there is something to it. I know
it is true if something is not soldered well to begin with it will must
certainly
be obvious later. Has anyone else noticed this? I’m really starting to wonder
about myself now

                  Richard Laspada

Handmade 18K and platinum gemstone jewelry. Fine die
and mold engraving. Diamond setting. Class rings/pins.
25 years experience in the jewelry trade. 515-472-9830


#11

You really believe that Yellow provides the finish that red does?? . .
recently tried yellow and still lean toward the red???

… And BLACK for sivber???
Jim

At 03:21 PM 10/9/96 -0500, you wrote:

M.G wrote:

Richard Laspada wrote:

I have always wondered about something (since there are so many “master
goldsmiths”
hanging out around these parts)…I have known from personal experience
for a
long time that red jeweler’s rouge tends to draw out solder leaving pits if
polished along the solder joint but yellow tripoli does not. If this is
true does anyone know the reason or am I just operating everyday in the
Twilight Zone :0

               Richard Laspada

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures

Richard, It is not the rouge. It is just a fluke that the pits show up
polishing/in other words your solder did not flow completely;that’s all
it is, nothing else.

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures


#12

Another thing that should be mentioned if anyone new to goldsmithing is
following this thread is not to heat the solder any longer than necessary to
do the job properly. Overheating the solder WILL burn it up, leaving pits also!

                   Richard Laspada

I might add that a problem I have in my silver work with pitting in solder
seams comes from many soldering operations with hard solder. I think I’ll
go back to using hard and medium again being more careful not to get too
hot…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html


#13

At 04:23 PM 10/10/96 +0000, you wrote:

Hi Richard

I have never noticed red rouge pulling out solder and pitting it, and
I’ve polished uncounted thousands of pieces over the last 25 years. What
I HAVE noticed is you don’t SEE the pits until you rouge, they were
there the whole time! My two cents worth is that you review your
soldering technique, it sounds like you’re burning the solder.

Gavin Gilmore wrote:

I’m definetely not burning the solder, I stop the second the solder flows
where I want it and not a second longer, and when it won’t flow properly the
first time I throw it in the pickle and then the ultrasonic and try it
again. HOWEVER, I do make my own solder and there just might be a kink in
that. Funny how I never considered that before .

               Richard Laspada

#14

You really believe that Yellow provides the finish that red does?? . .
recently tried yellow and still lean toward the red???

… And BLACK for sivber???
Jim

Jim, I always use the yellow tripoli before using the red jeweler’s rouge.
I found I get the best bright polish when I use the sand paper up to 400,
then use a blue, then a green, silicon wheel (I believe the brand name is
silicon softies) then use the tripoli, finally the red, the finish is
flawless (except when I get those #$%^&%#@&*! tiny pits). Its important to
make sure ALL of the tripoli is off of the jewelry before putting on the red
rouge wheel or you’ll contaminate it and never get it scratch free.

            Richard Laspada

#15

Richard Laspada wrote:


#16

Jim, I always use the yellow tripoli before using the red jeweler’s rouge.
I found I get the best bright polish when I use the sand paper up to 400,
then use a blue, then a green, silicon wheel (I believe the brand name is
silicon softies) then use the tripoli, finally the red, the finish is
flawless (except when I get those #$%^&%#@&*! tiny pits). Its important to
make sure ALL of the tripoli is off of the jewelry before putting on the red
rouge wheel or you’ll contaminate it and never get it scratch free.

                Richard Laspada

Your a funny guy Richard. u seem like a good person.

It just comes naturally ;-0


#17

Jim, I always use the yellow tripoli before using the red jeweler’s rouge.
I found I get the best bright polish when I use the sand paper up to 400,
then use a blue, then a green, silicon wheel (I believe the brand name is
silicon softies) then use the tripoli, finally the red, the finish is
flawless (except when I get those #$%^&%#@&*! tiny pits). Its important to
make sure ALL of the tripoli is off of the jewelry before putting on the red
rouge wheel or you’ll contaminate it and never get it scratch free.

The first time that I responded to this thread I didn't notice that

there was mention of pits. The question seemed to me to be about the
annoying properties that allow gold solder to be pulled from seams when
rouged in the direction of the seam.
Pitting is an altogether different problem. There are two solutions
to pitting that I was taught. First, make sure that the seam it clean. A
little rouge or tripoli in the seam will cause nothing but problems. Rouge
is even used as an anti-solder. Watch for contamination. Second, don’t heat
the solder. Heat the metal you are trying to solder. Get the metal hot
enough to accept the solder. Heating the solder has a tendency to force gas
into it, much like carbonating water.
If one has done the best one can do at the two above suggestions,
and one still has pits, run a sawblade through it and try again. If you are
too lazy to do this, (bare in mind that a seam with pits is not of optimal
strength), burnish the pits during finishing. A hand burnisher or an old bur
ground to rounded, and high polished surfaces like a ball peen hammer and
run on the flexible shaft.

E-mail: manmountaindense@knight-hub.com
WWW: http://www.knight-hub.com/manmtndense/bhh3.htm
Snail: POB 7972, McLean, VA 22106


#18
   The first time that I responded to this thread I didn't notice that

there was mention of pits. The question seemed to me to be about the
annoying properties that allow gold solder to be pulled from seams when
rouged in the direction of the seam.
Pitting is an altogether different problem. There are two solutions
to pitting that I was taught. First, make sure that the seam it clean. A
little rouge or tripoli in the seam will cause nothing but problems. Rouge
is even used as an anti-solder. Watch for contamination. Second, don’t heat
the solder. Heat the metal you are trying to solder. Get the metal hot
enough to accept the solder. Heating the solder has a tendency to force gas
into it, much like carbonating water.
If one has done the best one can do at the two above suggestions,
and one still has pits, run a sawblade through it and try again. If you are
too lazy to do this, (bare in mind that a seam with pits is not of optimal
strength), burnish the pits during finishing. A hand burnisher or an old bur
ground to rounded, and high polished surfaces like a ball peen hammer and
run on the flexible shaft.

To reiterate, this is the problem: Example, I size a ring, everything goes
picture perfect, solder not heated directly. Everything looks fine, ie; no
pits, etc. Even after using tripoli, and this is with close inspection
under a microscope. I then properly clean the item with a steamer and then
in the ultrasconic (not a trace of tripoli left) I polish it with red rouge
and it “seems” to me that it draws some of the solder out leaving small
visible pits that weren’t noticeable (for whatever reason) before. I can
fix this easily by “beating” it with a special “porosity” killer tool I
have. This doesn’t happen all the time but I have seen it way too much for
my comfort. I thought maybe my problem was in the making of my solder but
maybe I’m just not cleaning the pieces well enough before soldering on them.

          Richard Laspada

#19

I find that if I dissolve any of my rouges in kerosene and use a small paint
brush to apply it to my buffing wheel (very small amount) it works much
better as the Kerosene acts as a lube. Be sure to hold your work very tight
as it wiill realy pull on it. For the very best of shine on silver try soot
and kerosene on a chaois buff at low speeds. Lloyd


#20

Ever used ‘Black’ or Green ZAM?? Been told they were made for silver! Have
tired Red, Yellow, Green(ZAM), Black, Tripoli, and a White Fabulister…

Really believe that just need ‘paper’, Tripoli, and RED Rouge the rest will
sit around here til I ‘pitch them out’

Jim

At 01:44 AM 10/11/96 +0000, you wrote: