It's just copper, who'll buy it?

Jewelry Discussion
21

Hi all,

I have never worked in copper but I will ring in on my efforts
trying to make multiples of a product (silver) in order to sell them
cheaply. This is my experience which certainly isn’t necessarily
true for anyone else.

Way back when I was doing the art and crafts shows, I tried to find
something I could make a lot of and sell cheaply. I watched others
with their $10.00 earrings and people 3 deep around their booth
selling like crazy and wanted to find something I could produce that
would be equally popular. I found out that I just don’t work that
way - I did come up with a twisted wire earring that sold pretty well
for $15.00 a pair, but I, being a perfectionist when it comes to
jewelry, would spend at the least 30 minutes on each pair, trying to
get the curl exactly the same for each pair. Then I made simple
twisted wire rings for the kids but spent at least 15 minutes trying
to get the solder join just right without any bumps or lines. And I
was extremely bored making the same thing over and over. Same goes
for making simple hammered things - I don’t particularly like to sit
and hammer hour after hour.

After the show, when I tallied up my earnings, almost all of my
profit came from selling just a few high-end pieces. I also found,
that it didn’t work for me to have both price points in my booth. And
this is still true with my website - although I have a few very
inexpensive things on my site, most of my profit comes from the
higher end stuff - I don’t sell enough of the other to make it
worthwhile. The less expensive stuff does often lead someone to
decide I’m OK to order from and they will order the more expensive
thing after they see that the 1st piece is good quality, etc. But in
the art show world, I was better off when I dropped the cheaper
stuff.

Which leads me to conclude that each of us is different and we must
be true to what we are, rather than let what we perceive the market
to be make that decision, (within reason, of course). I applaud those
who have found their niche using copper - it is a beautiful metal.

22

Re Pedro’s message, I can’t agree more.

I learned my trade in Taiwan many many years ago. We used hand
forged pliers (which I still use today for many things), hand cast
iron rolling mills (ditto), bamboo hammer handles, and the list goes
on and on. Our torches were simple pipe affairs fed from gasoline
vapor generators (many of you are familiar with these) and connected
to foot operated bellows with patches of truck innertubes on top to
hold the air! These were the ‘best tools’ I could afford at the time
and I’m still using most of them. I agree with Pedro that its what
one does with the tools they have that is important. Now, if one is
not ‘cash challanged’ then Judy is correct…buy the best tools
possible. But there is a balance to be reached here. Don’t buy the
best if you are only going to make one or two pieces a year or 'play’
at the effort. Harbor Freight stuff will do for that. But, whatever
you do acquire, practice, practice, practice with it until you are
really good and never give up!

Cheers from Don at the Charles Belle Studio in SOFL where simple
elegance IS fine jewelry!

1 Like
23 
my aim is to use metals of higher value to raise what pieces are
worth and therefore pay myself a better hourly rate for my labour

Ahh, from the mouths of babes comes the wisdom of the world
(metaphorically speaking of course)

The way I look at it, at least under current circumstances, I’m here
50 hours a week anyway so if there’s a choice between spending a
couple hours making something that sells for $500 or $5,000 (the diff
being the materials including stones)), well its a no brainer. 5K
sales don’t walk in every day so fill in with the 500s. Develop your
500s customers and they eventually will give you enough 5000s orders
to keep you happy. The 500s become fodder for the 5000s.(again,
metaphorically speaking).

I also carry finished goods from manufacturers I’m friendly with. I
have a different attitude towards that. Here its much more casual.
Its not my main identity. But I have constructed things so that I
don’t cry if I miss a good sale out of the case. Really, I feel sorry
for straight resellers these days, the goods on display are their
only ticket.

In stock stuff has a very different prime motivator than custom. In
stock has to meet anticipated price-points / style / perceived-value
/ at-THAT-moment. The prospective custom customer wants it before
he/she even sees it. THAT’$ motivation.

I mention all that only because one has to be careful not to confuse
the two. So yeah, higher cost materials can boost your personal
income, as long as its within the context of your customer’s desire.

More simply I guess, your labor supports the sale of gems, gold,
whatever. A really savvy jeweler told me once, “Be the best…and be
expensive.”

Another tangent taken, so surprising.

24

What if it’s just paper?

I am so new to jewelry design; sort of accidently backing into it,
without training. I am a painter by training and just followed a
suggestion one day from an acquaintance who saw somebody on the
street selling paper jewelry… so I got curious and got hooked. I
have been picking up some wire skills over time… but I am still
essentially a painter.

So now I put some pieces on an ETSY store. I know the photography
leaves a lot to be desired… and maybe that is why the stuff is not
moving at all. But maybe it’s really not worth anything. Some of
these pieces, the two necklaces and the bracelet took many hours to
make. I’m pretty confused. They are only paper. Maybe I should only
be charging $15.00 even for 15 hours of work. Maybe it’s way to soon
to be discouraged… but I would sure appreciate some feedback and
advice if possible.

Thanks,
Rhonda

25 
Now, if one is not 'cash challanged' then Judy is correct....buy
the best tools possible

As I said yesterday, the conversation was NOT about tools, it was
about working with copper vs silver - hence the subject title.
People seem to have missed the point that was being made.

Helen
UK

26

Hi Jan,

After the show, when I tallied up my earnings, almost all of my
profit came from selling just a few high-end pieces.

I’ve had people on Etsy advise me to make lots of pairs of “cheap”
earrings as they are big sellers, but then others have advised me
that that would be a mistake because once you start to sell the lower
end pieces, that’s probably all you’ll sell and it’s what you become
known for. Instead, they have advised me to raise my prices on the
pieces I do have for sale and offer more high end pieces.

As you have found, if you try to make lots of inexpensive pieces,
it’s a lot of repetitive labour for very little return. That’s why I
decided to move into gold as soon as I can because the same can be
said about silver. But for me personally, I want to stick to the
precious metals. People obviously do buy copper jewellery but that
tends to be the more art jewellery market. I set gems in my
jewellery, more faceted than cabochons - and copper doesn’t lend
itself well to that.

Helen
UK

27 
if there's a choice between spending a couple hours making
something that sells for $500 or $5,000 (the diff being the
materials including stones)), well its a no brainer. 5K sales don't
walk in every day so fill in with the 500s.

We’re in different worlds Neil. For you the difference between low
and high end is $500 to $5000. For me, the difference is $50 to
$500. I make one of a kind pieces and have decided to place myself at
a specific place in the market, based on what I like to make. I use
sterling silver, sometimes accenting with gold. I want to make a
mixture of pieces using silver/gold, all gold and perhaps some fine
silver in there too. I’m not suggesting that one should start by
making platinum pieces with expensive diamonds, in the hope that I’ll
get big money - I’m not that naive. I’m merely explaining why copper
is not my choice of metal and why I want to work in gold as well as
silver. I get a great many people telling me they really love what
I’m doing and some that do put their money where their mouth is, so
there is a place for what I do.

Helen
UK

28 
I'm here 50 hours a week anyway so if there's a choice between
spending a couple hours making something that sells for $500 or
$5,000

What Neil said is fundamentally true, but it could use some
elaboration, I think. In manufacturing generally, the lower the
price, the more money you make AS A PERCENTAGE. In Neil’s post,
things are variable but he’s generally talking about making 20% or
50% or whatever profit on materials - this is not counting labor. If
you should sell a million dollar diamond, odds are you pull down
something like 1% to 5% on the sale - 5% is $50k. If you are punching
out steel washers in a factory, you are making more like 300% if not
1000% on your materials cost - the steel is $.000001, and the washer
sells for a penny. The problem being that the diamond sale takes a
couple of hours of actual work - maybe a week to consummate, for a
pile of cash, and the washer gets you a penny, so you need a million
pennies to have anything. That concept can or cannot transfer into
handmade items, depending on the maker. If you make a copper bracelet
you might pay a dollar for the copper and sell the bracelet for 50,
which we’ll call $10 for the copper - ten times what you paid. But
it’s still only ten dollars, although it’s 1000%. Lately I made 100%
on a platinum ring casting, give or take. But that was $1000… Just
that there is percentages, and then there is cash. Make a copper
bracelet, make 500%, and get $10. Make the same thing in platinum,
make 50% and get $1500.

I’ve said before - this topic is kind of silly - lots of people buy
copper and work it. Just something of the economics of making
things…

29 
We're in different worlds Neil.

Same world, different neighborhoods maybe.

I guess I put ‘metaphorically speaking’ in the wrong place. The
500/5000 was just for illustrative purposes only. The same principle
holds true in other prices. There are jewelers for whom $5000 is
chump change. The point isn’t the number itself, the point is you
make the lion’s share of profit (in dollars, not percentages, see
John’s post)) on your bigger ticket stuff, which is at least to some
degree dependant on the materials, while your other stuff fills in.
Bread 'n butter with gravy on top. But without the bread there’s no
place to put the gravy.

I’m agreeing with you that the intrinsic value of the material
directly affects your bottom line. Although I would suggest a jeweler
should not think in terms of an hourly rate for his/her own income.
The reason being that you will limit yourself. You’ll start to think
of yourself like the steel washer manufacturer in John’s post, “How
many washers do I hafta make today before I can go home?”. The
machine must always be running. It’ll metaphorically kill you. If you
think ‘hourly rate’ you will always be an employee(your own perhaps
but still one). Think ‘am I fulfilling my potential?’ and you are
your own master.

Oh jeez, a tangent on a tangent. I should leave a trail of crumbs.

30 
I make one of a kind pieces and have decided to place myself at a
specific place in the market, based on what I like to make.

It’s really the whole point of it all, and probably life itself. Do
what you love if it’s at all possible. Not everybody can be wandering
musicians or we wouldn’t have shoe salesmen. I’m a perfect example,
as I know are others here. I started out making turquoise jewelry -
it was what I wanted to do and I was good at it. Then I made jewelry
much like what many here make - contemporary, non-ethnic silver and
whatever stones appealed to me jewelry. Then I grew and grew and
started making cheaper gold jewelry and still a bit of silver. Then I
got into very high end gold and platinum. Pieces I have made have
been in De Beers ads, but not with my name attached. All along doing
what I wanted to do - it’s just that what I wanted to do grew with my
ambitions and abilities. That’s not to say that anybody or everybody
will or should follow that path, just that one of the best parts of
life is that the future is unknown, and we never know where a path
might lead…

31 
I've said before - this topic is kind of silly - lots of people
buy copper and work it. Just something of the economics of making
things...

Interesting that you mention this- As I’m currently doing a string
of really neat and challenging commissions for a lady who came to me
because I’m willing to work in copper. And she’s actually willing to
pay reasonable sums for my work. She’d been turned down by several
other people because they didn’t want to bother, said they only
worked in silver/gold/etc. But I’m getting the same as I would charge
for sterling off these jobs. Guess those who only work in gold and
silver missed out, eh?

My two cents: I work in whatever I think is best for the
project/target customer, tempered by my budget.

Lindsay
http://www.dreamingdragondesign.etsy.com

32

Rhonda,

So now I put some pieces on an ETSY store. I know the photography
leaves a lot to be desired... and maybe that is why the stuff is
not moving at all. But maybe it's really not worth anything. Some
of these pieces, the two necklaces and the bracelet took many hours
to make. I'm pretty confused. They are only paper. Maybe I should
only be charging $15.00 even for 15 hours of work. Maybe it's way
to soon to be discouraged.. but I would sure appreciate some
feedback and advice if possible.

As someone who does work with copper, and even brass, and knows of
more than one paper jewelry artist, I would honestly say that you
can’t generally get for paper the prices you can for silver or high
quality copper work, and that’s about where you’ve got most of your
work priced. Most papercraft artists I know make a huge volume and
sell it for a fairly cheap price, unless they are using truely
vintage or antique paper, or really expensive stuff like fancy rice
papers and such, and in that case, they play it up a LOT.

Just like copper, it’s really a matter of learning how to work
quickly and still produce a good result, or develop something totally
different from the competiton.

As an example, because you asked:

Your black and gold necklace: I couldn’t sell that piece for $240 if
I put decent quality lapis beads in instead of the paper ones, as it
sits.

For one thing, to get $240, I’d have to switch the 14k gold filled
wire to at least 14k solid gold wire, buy gold lobster clasps and use
a thicker gauge of wire, at least 18ga. Then I’d have to add in
something like AA grade Lapis, Turquoise, Amethyst or something like
that.

There are at least a dozen books on the market showing people how to
make paper beads as a childrens craft using construction paper and
Elmers glue. It’s the same reason why I don’t make a really simple
hand-made chain from thin wire, or do wire-wrapping or knit socks for
a living. The “Oh, I can do that.” effect. Instead I make a forged
chain with careful patina work, and set any stones I use in silver
bezels. The average soccer-mom can’t fool herself as easily that she
can replicate my work.

Photography does matter a lot when doing online sales, so does
exposure. Print up business cards and utilize whatever networking
sites you’re already on. Check out my Etsy for some photo ideas, if
you like.

Lindsay
Dreaming Dragon Designs
http://www.dreamingdragondesign.etsy.com

33

I have found in business to be a successful business one finds out
what the customer wants then give it to them.

I have a similar situation where I have a wholesaler that was large,
gaudy and non-typical pieces. At first I was out of my comfort zone.
My pieces were more conservative, but now I let it all hang out.

Yes and I use varying metals. What ever works.

Ken Moore
www.kenworx.com

34 
I must confess that I'm a little prejudiced against copper too.
I'm not sure why - perhaps it's its perceived "cheapness" that
bothers me. I love the colour but would sooner use red gold to
achieve that colour.

The only problem I see with this statement is that red gold isn’t
the same color as copper, and I dare you to show me that you can
produce a rainbow patina on red gold.

The “Perceived cheapness” has increasingly little to do with
reality. Copper price is rising. There’s a reason the US government
is trying to do away with the penny all together. They tried using
zinc clad with copper, but even that is now worth much more than a
penny in metal value, making people melting them a real concern. And
some dude locally nearly died trying to steal copper wire from a
scrap yard to sell- got himself stuck under a dumpster.

There are also things that can be done with copper in terms of
designs that most people won’t try with gold. Not much market for
raised and formed pendants of decent size in gold, as they aren’t
affordable. And silver has it’s own limitations. Better idea in my
estimation is to choose metal based on the design, and what suits
that design best.

But then, I’m an artist. I leave the endless uninteresting repeat
jewelry to the stores at the mall.

Lindsay
Dreaming Dragon Designs
http://www.dreamingdragondesign.etsy.com

35 
Yes and I use varying metals. What ever works.

There are two and only two reasons why I work almost exclusively in
gold and platinum. The first is that I’m spoiled. Working gold and
even more so platinum is so effortless and wonderful that anything
else seems like (IS, actually) a chore. The second is that I make
$XXX dollars per time, and people who come here from the silver and
other worlds have an expectation of paying $xx for time, and
something has to give and it’s not going to be me. I’m an old-timer -
I might give a huge deal or a freebie to some poor blushing bride or
her grandmother, but that’s up to me. I won’t work silver for 1/2 or
1/3 pay because somebody just expects to pay that, and I’m afraid
that’s the state of things. Different worlds and nobody’s wrong. In
my case it has nothing whatever to do with “good metals, bad metals”
because I’ve worked all of them, too. That’s why the title of this
thread is pretty silly - lots of people like copper, and brass, and
pewter. The economics of it all are pretty inescapable, though.
Paying me $100 to pound out some copper that a student or
copper-worker would do for $20 just makes no sense for anyone
involved…I make Mercedes, they make Kias, they make bicycles, they
make roller skates, everybody’s happy.

36

Please understand that I like copper. I love the patinas I can get
on it. I once took a wonderful workshop with Lynn Hull on toaster
oven patinas, and I am amazed at the spectacular range of colors one
can get. And I especially I love to make things using the form
folding techniques of Charles Lewton-Brain. Most of what I make for
myself, is made of copper.

But, I have never had any luck in selling it, so I now offer silver
and am branching out into gold. Working with the gold is a new
experience for me. I am intimidated by the high cost, but I must
admit that it is thrilling to be able to complete a piece without a
total meltdown, (or nervous breakdown).

I now feel comfortable using my Little torch which is much better
for gold than my Prestolite, or Smith Silversmith torch. I am finally
getting the bezels to fit tightly against the stones. Thanks to all
the suggestions on Orchid, I have switched from 14K to 18 K bezels.
Wow, what a difference.

So Copper will continue to be my choice for the things I make for
myself, and silver and gold for the public.

Alma Rands

37

John,

I am truly jealous and I mean that from my heart.

I am in my fourth year of jewelry making classes at the local senior
center. I am a retired business man and I am trying to earn while I
learn and I have found my niche with my current wholesaler.

I am sure I have not progressed to the level of a journeyman let
alone a master, but I hope I am getting better. I would love to be
able to work in gold and other exotic metals (that is exotic to me),
but I have not found that cliental that I can cater to as of yet.

I can facet, perform lapidary and metal smith and my current level
of expertise provides me hours of Zen like relaxation and some mad
money to pay for the materials, tools and fishing trips (like my one
to Canada last month).

I truly aspire to get to the level that you are at, but I have not
paid my due as of yet.

I learn something new every day, but if my customer wants X metal in
a huge, gaudy and unorthodox manner. I am game. Hopefully it will
make me a better person and jeweler in the long run.

You go guy,

Ken Moore
www.kenworx.com

38

Hi Lindsay,

Yes, you’re right in everything you say about copper. You can’t get
the rainbow patina with red gold and it’s not the same colour as
copper. But it is in the same colour family. I admire what you do
with copper but I chose to work in silver, moving onto gold at some
point. I wanted to work in the precious metals, not copper. Yes,
copper may well become a precious metal at some point.

I want to make silver and gold jewellery. Not the stuff you get at
the mall store, as that is boring. I want to make different things
but I’m not as arty a jeweller as you are. I don’t have as much
artistic vision. I’m sorry my prejudices against copper insulted you.
I certainly didn’t mean them to. I was just offering a point of view.
And I know there is a market for what you do.

Sorry to offend.

Helen
UK

39

I’m firmly in the camp of those who feel what you invest in your
work is it’s true value whether you make it from “precious”, “base”
or anywhere in-between materials. However, what the market values it
at can be a surprise and I’ve had it happen both ways.

In response to Rhonda’s concern over paper - as a past papermaker
making sheet paper, plant fibre jewelry, paper mache ornaments, art,
etc I sympathise with your predicament - we gave up our business
largely because we had set out to make items that were affordable
but not cheap and we found two things - they were expensive to make
in terms of our time and the market did not value them very much as
most people thought “this is just paper”. Yes, I also second the
crafts for your kids effect! I even had one lady tell me how suitable
my items would be for “retarded” kids to make! I was quite hurt, even
though I tried to brush it off!

Truth is, we had presented an image to the market that also
undervalued our work - we presented it as craft not art. Another
producer presented their far less well made (technically and
materials content) items as art and sold theirs easily for much
higher prices. Their marketing presentation and sales style beat ours
by far. Some people may see it as deceptive, but it’s the reality of
our world.

It’s a fickle world out there in the market. All sorts of things can
affect what money you can get for your work - finding that balance
between your costs, value you truly feel comfortable assigning your
work and what the market will bear is often difficult but as many
have testified here, if you are sure of yourself then you will find
your customers and/or they will find you.

Personally, how I value something depends entirely and only on the
connection I feel with it whether it’s paper or platinum (the latter
which I can’t afford anyway) and I try to buy ethically but often
it’s hard to tell. Yes, if I’m looking for an investment for
retirement, then I’d be more concerned with market value. My work
follows my personal value system and I have no doubt my customers are
out there for me.

Finola
http://sunrainor.blogspot.com

40 
There are two and only two reasons why I work almost exclusively
in gold and platinum.... Paying me $100 to pound out some copper
that a student or copper-worker would do for $20 just makes no
sense for anyone involved...I make Mercedes, they make Kias, they
make bicycles, they make roller skates, everybody's happy.

As is is alluded to in the above comment, one key bit that
frequently seems to be lost in these discussions is the factor of the
skill and ability of the maker. If the same student made something in
gold or platinum, the result still wouldn’t be worth the $100. A
mediocre piece is mediocre no matter what metal it is made from. The
decision on what metal to use also needs to include the skill level
of the maker. The quality of the design should also be a factor.

Then there is the marketing factor. An established confident jeweler
with clients or stores who purchase their work can and should be
making things using the higher value metals and stones. A relative
newbie or hobbiest who lacks confidence and a market, should be using
a metal that fits their budget. Once they establish confidence and a
sales track record, they can upgrade their metal and their hourly
rate to match and start looking for higher end sales outlets. There
are probably a few prodigies who can jump into the market using high
end materials, but most of us need more work on one or more of the
above before reaching that level.

Mary Ellin D’Agostino, PhD
www.medacreations.com