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Iron meteorites and gold


#1

I have meteorite slices and 100 year old square nails that I would
like to make into rings with gold or silver on the inside or into
pendants. Can you solder the gold/silver to the iron or must you use
cold fittings. If you can solder, what type solder and what is the
process?

Tom


#2

If you could look at work done by Rob Jackson you get see what is
possible he has been combining gold silver and rusty old nails and
iron for over 20 years


#3

Check out the work by Daniel Brush, I think that’s his name. He has
done lots of gold and steel. It’s amazing work. No, I don’t know how
he does it.


#4

Yes you can solder gold/silver to both iron and steel. You never get
the iron or steel up to a hot enough temperature to create a true
solder joint. It is more like brazing than soldering. It does create
a strong bond, but it will be the weakest point. It does not flow as
easily as working with gold and silver alone. It just take some
practice to figure out how the solder flows differently on iron and
steel. Clean lines are much tougher. If you have access to a laser or
tig welder you can create a cleaner stronger bond.

Good luck
SiblingStudio Jewelry
iblingstudiojewelry.com


#5
Yes you can solder gold/silver to both iron and steel. You never
get the iron or steel up to a hot enough temperature to create a
true solder joint. It is more like brazing than soldering. 

What we jewelers call soldering is brazing, you are using brazing
alloys that we call silver and gold “solder”

It does create a strong bond, but it will be the weakest point. It
does not flow as easily as working with gold and silver alone. It
just take some practice to figure out how the solder flows
differently on iron and steel. 

Iron and steel react with oxygen much more rapidly than the metals
we are used to working with. The secret to getting good solder
joints on iron or steel is to use a very active flux like Handy Flux
or a black flux like Handy Flux B2. Then you need to work as fast as
you can to get the metal to temperature and the solder to flow. If
you dawdle you will never get a good bond. If the joint is well done
it will be very strong, in fact it can be very close to the strength
of the gold or silver itself.

Clean lines are much tougher. If you have access to a laser or tig
welder you can create a cleaner stronger bond. 

I am afraid this is not correct a fusion weld of gold or silver to
steel will be weaker than a good brazed joint.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#6
It is more like brazing than soldering. 

What we–jewelers and metalsmiths- call soldering is, in fact
brazing. How do you define the difference?


#7

Hi James,

What we jewelers call soldering is brazing, you are using brazing
alloys that we call silver and gold "solder" 

Isn’t the jewellers term “soldering” more like welding depending on
the solder being used?

I.e. The harder the solder the deeper the fusion into the join.

Regards Charles A.


#8

I know Rob Jackson has been doing beautiful work with gold and Iron,
but is it soldered or cold connections

TOM


#9
What we--jewelers and metalsmiths- call soldering is, in fact
brazing. How do you define the difference? 

I have fought this battle over and over again. I guess it is time
for another round.

First, I would like to inform all potential responders to what I am
going to say, that I am fully aware that a lot of authorities use the
term interchangeably, and all of them wrong. So do not bother citing
who said what.

The difference between brazing and soldering is in the function of
the solder. In brazing, the solder is an integral component of the
joint. The joint consist of joining surfaces, with solder filling the
space between them. Brazing is akin to welding, except that welding
uses the same material as the joint, but brazing uses a specially
formulated alloy.

In soldering, solder is used not to fill the space between joining
surfaces, but to trigger the process of diffusion between joining
surfaces. Solder can be considered a catalyst of the diffusion, which
is totally consumed during the process. After soldering is completed,
solder becomes chemically integrated into alloy comprising the joint.

To give a parallel from chemistry, it is like the difference between
solution and emulsion, with soldering been the former. The confusion
arises because some goldsmith use solder as a filler, and than the
process becomes brazing.

Leonid Surpin
www.studioarete.com


#10

Hello All,

Reject as you will, but the American Welding Society has defined:
Soldering as the filler metal being liquid BELOW 840F and below
solid for the base metal.

Brazing as the filler metal being liquid ABOVE 840F and also below
solidus of the base metal.

Welding is when the metals being joined are liquid and usually
involves the addition of a filler metal.

Keep in mind there are exceptions (as with "solid phase welding"
where it is still a “weld” but the welded metals never go liquid),
but this is how some portion of the world views the process…note
that alloy/metal is not mentioned…just temp.

Ric Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
www.doorcountyforgeworks.com


#11
Reject as you will, but the American Welding Society has defined:
Soldering as the filler metal being liquid BELOW 840F and below
solid for the base metal. 

And here lies the problem - “American Welding Society has
defined…” What does American Welding Society knows about
goldsmithing ? The answer is nothing! Their definition is as
pertinent to the discussion, as average temperature in the Sahara
desert to an eskimo.

Leonid Surpin
www.studioarete.com


#12
In soldering, solder is used not to fill the space between joining
surfaces, but to trigger the process of diffusion between joining
surfaces. Solder can be considered a catalyst of the diffusion,
which is totally consumed during the process. After soldering is
completed, solder becomes chemically integrated into alloy
comprising the joint. 

Leonid…you stated the above…do you have a cross-sectional photo
micrograph showing the new interface is actually becoming a
diffusion bond…or do you simply think it is?

Ric Furrer
www.doorcountyforgeworks.com


#13
Isn't the jewellers term "soldering" more like welding depending
on the solder being used? I.e. The harder the solder the deeper the
fusion into the join. 

No it only refers to the melting temperature of the brazing alloy It
is a very arbitrary designation as it has no reference. One
manufacturers hard could be like another ones medium.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#14

Hi Tom,

Rob Jacksons work is soldered. You can read a brief description of
his process in the Penland Book of Jewelry by Martha Le Van.

Pam
Newburyport, M


#15

Isn’t the jewellers term “soldering” more like welding depending on
the solder being used? I.e. The harder the solder the deeper the
fusion into the join.

No it only refers to the melting temperature of the brazing alloy
It is a very arbitrary designation as it has no reference. One
manufacturers hard could be like another ones medium. 

Sorry James, I’m not making myself clear, I’ll try to be a bit
clearer.

The different grades of hard solder (hard, medium and easy), have a
different higher melting point. The higher the melting point the
greater the penetration into the metals to be joinned. Soft solder
has a low melting point, therefore will only have an adhesive bond.

When the hard solder penetrates into the metal to be joined this is
actually a weld, is it not?

Just trying to confirm my notes.
Regards Charles A.


#16
do you have a cross-sectional photo micrograph showing the new
interface is actually becoming a diffusion bond...or do you simply
think it is? 

He will not because it is a fantasy. Diffusion brazing does occur but
requires very special prep and tiny amounts of the alloy. Typically
the braze alloy is applied by plating or vapor deposition for
diffusion brazing. Adding actual pallions present way too much to
fully diffuse. But diffusion is taking place in both brazing and
lower temperature soldering operations.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#17
In soldering, solder is used not to fill the space between joining
surfaces, but to trigger the process of diffusion between joining
surfaces. Solder can be considered a catalyst of the diffusion,
which is totally consumed during the process. After soldering is
completed, solder becomes chemically integrated into alloy
comprising the joint. 

So under that system, the use of low temperature solders containing
lead or tin would actually be called “brazing” as the solder alloy
acts as a filler material? When we solder with normal goldsmithing
alloys, does complete diffusion take place? With white gold alloys,
I can often see a slightly different colour on the joint after
soldering - is that the solder left behind as a filler, or a
modified alloy in the area of the joint?

Before you say anything, lead and tin solders are very relevant to my
research into medieval techniques, particularly as I’m developing a
"chaene operatoire" which includes different methods of fusing metals
together There is a technical and scientific aspect to all kinds of
metalworking, and it’s a shame that there isn’t a standardised use of
terminology across the different fields.

Jamie Hall
http://primitive.ganoksin.com


#18
Sorry James, I'm not making myself clear, I'll try to be a bit
clearer. 
The different grades of hard solder (hard, medium and easy), have
a different higher melting point. The higher the melting point the
greater the penetration into the metals to be joinned. Soft solder
has a low melting point, therefore will only have an adhesive
bond. 

You were clear, and the answer is that the diffusion has to do with
metallurgy/chemistry as much or more than the temperature. Soft
solders like tin-lead diffuse into the base metals just like "hard"
solders do. The idea that the soft solder is just an adhesive bond
is incorrect, if it wets the base metal you get diffusion to some
degree. Time, temperature and chemistry all act to determine the
depth of diffusion.

When the hard solder penetrates into the metal to be joined this
is actually a weld, is it not? 

Traditional definition of a weld is that the metals being joined are
both melted at the point of the weld whereas a braze or solder joint
relies on a second lower melting point alloy being melted to flow
into the interface between the pieces being joined resulting in a
metallurgical bond.

The waters get murky when dissimilar metals are joined by "welding"
and solid state welding where there is no fusion but a weld occurs
nonetheless.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#19
do you have a cross-sectional photo micrograph showing the new
interface is actually becoming a diffusion bond...or do you simply
think it is? 

What is the point of asking the question, when the answer is already
known. Obviously, I do not. I am neither metallurgist, nor material
scientist. But, that is not the only way to know. I do not have a
photograph of Gravity either, but we know it exist.

For example. If you go to either Ganoksin bench tube or my website,
and take a look at Eternity ring video, that ring has effectively 122
soldered joints. Each and every joint has surface area of less than
half of square millimeter. Each and every one carries structural
load. Ring is set without any setter’s cement, so we know the
structure is solid. None of the joints is visible. All of them are
done with hard solder only. I do not believe and never use any other
kinds.

Coronet Cluster video showing the ring, which has even more soldered
joints, combination of metals, structural requirements even more
stringent.

One does not need a photograph, to know that it is only possible if
joint integration is on molecular level.

Leonid Surpin
www.studioarete.com


#20
..do you have a cross-sectional photo micrograph showing the new
interface is actually becoming a diffusion bond. 

This is well known in the electronics industry, and well documented.
Google “solder bond.” I have had such micrographs in the past, done
by our met lab to analyze failures.

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY