Invisible stone setting basics

Jewelry Discussion
61 
I took very careful measurements of several test blanks at every
step of the process from original master to cast final pieces. The
settings got smaller every time.

In my response to Gary, I made the case as good as I could. It will
be counter productive to continue. I suspect we are looking at the
same things, but drawing different conclusions. Besides, I will not
be able to participate in this discussion any more. Business
absolutely sucks, so I am going on vacation. City of Lights calling
me and I shall respond.

Leonid Surpin

62 
At every step of the process shrinking holes are a concern. With
the shrinkage rate of wax it is a naked eye effect, no fancy
measuring tools nor even magnifacation required to see.

I have addressed this before. All I can say is please read again.
The mistake that is made here and in other posts is drawing
conclusions from isolated set of circumstances that do not mimic the
environment, in context of which, my comments were made. In plain
language it is an old “apples and oranges” problem.

Leonid Surpin

63

Now, using a very thin saw, cut the circle out and put it back in
the hole. Now heat the sheet (and circle) the same as before. Do
you really think that the hole gets smaller to pinch the circle, or
do you think the circle gets smaller? Of course not; the hole and
circle expand the same amount, and contract the same amount when
they cool.

How do you explain that then?

I am only stating general principal of how the thing works. If
general postulate is rejected, and that what you are doing, then it
is possible to construct an experiment which, on the surface. would
seem to contradict the general theory.

We all accept the fact that things when heated expand, and contract
upon cooling. This not in question. The stumbling block, as I see it,
is in accepting that metal does not behave as a unit, but as a
collective comprised of many tiny entities. Each entity could,
depending on circumstances, behave slightly differently. I like to
envision it like a traveling colony of ants. Depending what is on the
way, the colony can change it’s shape and direction.

When metal is heated, it is not heated uniformly from each and every
possible direction. Even in the most sophisticated ovens there are
variations. That means that each and every atom would react
differently, depending on how fast, and how much heat it gets. It
would also depend on it’s neighbors reaction, and on it’s location
inside the metal.

Every time we changing shape of the metal, or drill holes, or
introducing partial cut, etc…; we modifying this heat absorbtion
pattern. And that may produces seemingly contradictory results. When
discussing this subject it is important to think in terms of many
tiny
units behaving as a collective, and not as one. By making a cut, you
changing spatial relationships between atoms, you changing mass, and
probably the most important, you changing ratio of unit of heat to
unit of mass.

Why your example does not apply ? Because you start with solid metal
with established form. Whatever variations we can introduce while
heating it, the changes, upon returning to cold state, will be
minute. Probably below our ability to detect them because we never
take the metal to liquid phase, where it has the most freedom. By
separating small ring, even if you placed it inside the hole, it
would behave as separate entity, and not as part of the sheet as
before.

I have made my comments in context of filling spaces between the
stones with liquid metal and changes which could result from this
arrangement. There is another factor here which is not present in
your experiment and others. The stones used for this technique have
almost perfect heat conductivity (they have to be to survive). So the
metal between the stones behaves like there is a greater mass of
metal, then there actually is. It means that spaces between atoms
would be larger than justified by the temperature, and shrinkage
would be more pronounced as well.

Leonid Surpin

64 
the overall expansion and contraction of the whole piece, which is
a percentage of the whole overall dimensions, far exceeds any
expansion of smaller details.

And there are two other factors, too - if you’re talking about
cast-in-place, then you also have stones expanding and contracting,
each according to it’s nature - i.e. they are all different, which
gives you a kind of dance between stones and metal.

Second is that Invisible setting is never cast in place that I’ve
ever seenor heard of - that could mean I’m ignorant but I don’t
believe so. So why this discussion is even here is beyond
understanding…

65 
Second is that Invisible setting is never cast in place that I've
ever seenor heard of - that could mean I'm ignorant but I don't
believe so. So why this discussion is even here is beyond
understanding...

I happened to be talking with some salemen from Mumbai, trying to
get a local store to carry their line. I was there dropping off some
work I’d done for the store at the same time, and the store owner
asked my my opinion of the stuff. Now, I had only a loupe, not a
microscope handy, so I couldn’t be totally sure of exact details. But
they had work with the usual channel set diamonds, bead set diamonds,
pave set diamonds, and invisible set (two and three row) set
diamonds. Looking with a loupe only, I at first completely missed
that this line, which looked decently sturdy, heavy enough where it
needed, and appeared well set and finished, used all stone in place
setting. The salesmen were quite proud of their line, saying that
they considered their factory to be state of the art, that their firm
had put in a lot of research into the processes, and this is why
their setting work looked so good. Among other things, the finishing
work looked like things had been properly prepolished before setting,
yet they assured me this was cast with the stones in place, and their
finishing processes could get into those details. After being told
this, upon closer inspection, one thing I then noticed was the
complete lack of any tool marks on beads or bright cut areas, or
anywhere else. Too good a finish for hand setting, and yes, I know
hand set work can be very good. But no trace of little flashings or
graver marks or beading tool marks on any beads anywhere, for
example… And unlike early stone in place casting, these appeared to
have quite enough metal in contact with the stones at seats, beads,
etc.

Frankly, I was impressed as hell, and a bit depressed too. The stuff
was good enough to fool many jewelers at least on a casual
inspection, and maybe more. Clearly a bit of a threat to craftspeople
who can’t compete on price. (though fortunately, we can easily
compete in design. This was all mass market typical design stuff, and
any reasonably creative jeweler will come up with more innovative
designs.) Stones appeared tight, there appeared to be enough metal
supporting things under the stones, and all the other details that
normally would cause stone in place casting to fail seemed to have
been addressed. Now I don’t know how any of that stuff would respond
if a ring needed to come down two sizes. But they claimed it stood up
to normal workshop operations like sizing or repairs as well as any
hand set work. Of course they were salesmen, so they’d say that. But
I couldn’t find anything in the jewelry that obviously refuted that
claim. The work they had as samples was all in 14K gold, mostly white
gold. They said they also offered 18K, and were working to perfect
much of the process to allow them to do this with platinum too in the
near future. Now, this all happened about two years ago, so perhaps
they’ve got that solved now as well. Don’t know.

I haven’t seen that particular line since, because apparently they
wanted a sizeable minimum initial order, and the store owner didn’t
want to commit to that much, so he’s not carrying that line. But like
I said, it was surprisingly good looking, and included invisible
setting styles as well.

Peter

66

Peter,

I am pretty sure the line you describe is Diatrends. They indeed are
fine craftsmen and their factory is cutting edge in all aspects of
the trade, they even utilize a computer based blended learning
program for their employees.

James

67

Last evening I saw a short documentary on the TV. It was of an old
wheelwright fitting an iron tyre to a wagon wheel. He made the tyre
slightly smaller than the wheel and then built a circular fire on
which he heated it until it expanded enough to slip onto the wheel.
He then quenched the tyre with water and it contracted to squeeze the
wheel securely together. It really did shrink when it cooled; its a
process that 100’s of years old.

Now suppose that he made two tyres: one the same size as before, and
another that just fitted around it with no gaps at all. He now heats
the two tyres as a unit and proceeds to fit the composite tyre to the
wheel. Does it shrink as before, or does one or both tyres expand
when they are quenched? Surely you must accept that they shrink - as
a unit. Now do the same thing again, but use three tyres. They all
shrink again, don’t they?

Keep adding tyres until they resemble a large washer or circular
sheet with a hole in it, albeit made of concentric individual rings.
At what point will the central ring expand when they are all cooled,
and when that happens, what happens to the rings surrounding it? Do
they all expand too, right out to the outer one?

If only some of the innermost rings expand, at what point does the
process stop; how far from the innermost ring do they stop
expanding, and, since the inner ring expands, but the outer ring
doesn’t, what happens to the intermediate rings? Do they get wider so
as to conserve the total volume of metal?

Try thinking a little longer than 10 seconds.

Regards, Gary Wooding

68

Peter

I haven't seen that particular line since, because apparently they
wanted a sizeable minimum initial order, and the store owner
didn't want to commit to that much, so he's not carrying that line.
But like I said, it was surprisingly good looking, and included
invisible setting styles as well.

I agree with you Peter. As the store goldsmith, I don’t feel so
threatened, but I do get nightmarish visions when I imagine the
customer who will buy the ring and then ask me to size it down from
a 7 to a 3.5. When these salespeople come into the store, I hang
back, letting the sales girls and the store owner pick out the pieces
they feel we can move (I just get blinded by all my manufacturing
prejudices, if it were my call.) Then I come in (the great kill-joy)
and put the salesman on the “hot” seat if you will. I first ask
him/her if these pieces will be staying in our store if we agree to
carry the line or if the company will be sending on our order later.
If we are going to be keeping the pieces he is showing us, there is
a good possibility that this is the kind of work they produce on a
daily basis, and as long as all the stones are tight, and there
doesn’t look like any thing has too delicate of an under gallery to
prohibit resetting of any stones that might come loose in the
future, I’m cool- even with some invisi-set pieces. If the salesman
says, “No.” I take down the numbers of the one’s you want and we send
them to you later, then we generally won’t go with that line, unless
there are some really favorable return policies. I have seen
companies have their “Top” dog setters, and polishers produce their
display lines, and then the lesser experienced jewelers make the
production line with the expected outcomes. When an invisible set
ring comes from the factory and it rattles like a castanet, you can
bet there will be troubles in the not too distant future.

69 
But like I said, it was surprisingly good looking, and included
invisible setting styles as well.

Intersting story by Peter. The problem I would have with
cast-in-place invisible setting would be the lack of control - if
the metal doesn’t flow then you’re screwed and there’d be no way to
fix it. But high-tech casting could remove that issue, and invisible
setting is definately high-tech.

Long ago there was Nova Stylings in LA - they pretty much swept the
world with their innovative cast in place designs - those were the
ones with baguettes seemingly magically set everywhere a baguette
would fit. Beautiful styling, too. The thing was that they took full
advantage of the technique - all the work looked like gossamer
windowpanes with diamonds for glass.

Almost like plique a’ jour, in a way. And the metal was so fine you
could hardly see it. A testament to the goldsmith’s art, in fact.
Problem is, I doubt many pieces still exist, and I just can’t see
sizing one…

But the point is, as Peter points out, that those were conscious,
stlylistic decisions. That doesn’t mean it has to be that way. You
could cast a diamond into a massive chunk of gold if you wanted to,
it’s just that most people who use it tend to work in ways that take
advantage of the method - casting stones in ways that aren’t
possible mechanically. Else why usethe method?

70 
Long ago there was Nova Stylings in LA - they pretty much swept
the world with their innovative cast in place designs - those were
the ones with baguettes seemingly magically set everywhere a
baguette would fit. Beautiful styling, too. The thing was that they
took full advantage of the technique - all the work looked like
gossamer windowpanes with diamonds for glass.

Yup. cool stuff, till they went bankrupt. A new owner, and
reorganization, didn’t fix it, since when they went under, they
simply fired everyone. The company, and the quality of the
merchandise, was never the equal again, to what it had been. The
fellow who sits next to me at work is our main diamond setter. He
spent ten years working for Nova, and was one of those who got laid
off when it went under.

I’ll have to ask him how much, if any, of their stuff was cast in
place, but to the best of my knowledge, at least the things he was
doing for them, which was almost all baguette setting, they were
conventionally set. As I say, I might have missed some of his
stories over the last ten years I’ve worked with the man, since his
english isn’t as good as it might be (he’s Chinese), but the notion
that their work was cast in place doesn’t ring true…

But I’ll ask, and report back…

Cheers
Peter

71 
but the notion that their work was cast in place doesn't ring
true...

Well, Peter, that’s pretty incredible. I’ve pretty much assumed it
was cast, because otherwise that was some pretty trick setting. Not
to mention the stone picking to begin with. Nova put out some pretty
extraordinaystuff - innovative designs, very, very fine. If that was
all hand set, then so much more so…

72 
that's pretty incredible. I've pretty much assumed it was cast,
because otherwise that was some pretty trick setting. Not to
mention the stone picking to begin with. Nova put out some pretty
extraordinaystuff - innovative designs, very, very fine. If that
was all hand set, then so much more so..

I asked Ray ( my setter colleage who worked for them) about Nova
today, and he confirmed that so far as he knew, it was all hand set.
He said they had a pretty slick operation going, and had tried cast
in place stones but weren’t happy with it. He also says that though
the “back to back” setting looks tricky as hell to do, there are
tricks to it. Apparently another more senior setter there had shown
him how to do it, and he’d picked it up pretty easily. To this day,
he still sets channel set baguettes better and quicker than most
other setters I’ve worked with. As to picking stones, they did it all
in house, aided in part by an extremly deep inventory. Ray described
it as piles of baguettes, which I’d interpret as rather large parcels
of any given size or shape. So one could be picky with selecting
matched stones, because they had a lot to choose from, and a cutter
available to trim stones when an exact match to a needed size wasn’t
found. And they had people there doing just the stone picking, so
the setters didn’t need to bother with it. he also described an
atmosphere that he says, had a lot to do with the quality of the
work. Setters or other workers were not at all rushed or asked to
meet any sort of production quota. They were told to take whatever
time they needed to do the job, but that it had to be done right.
Taking a long time on a job wasn’t a problem. Take a day, or take a
week. Didn’t matter. But it had to come out done right. Not doing it
right, no matter how quickly and efficiently you’d done it, WAS a
problem. That’s a philosophy many shops would benefit from adopting.

And I agree with your opinion of the work. I recall being blown away
by the best of their styles, and it’s interesting to me that we live
in such a small world that I now find myself sitting next to one of
the guys who’s work I probably was admiring back then… He’s kind of
nostalgic too about them. Says it was a great place to work. That may
have, in the end, been part of why they ended up going bankrupt.
Spending too much cash, with too little cost controls… But I don’t
know that. Just guessing.

Peter

73

Continue from:

All this stuff is interesting but as a setter that has deal with it
when it come in, I told my clients to steer clear of the stuff.
Ordering replacement stone doesn’t seem possible, mostly because the
stone dealers don’t have the right size or don’t carry the stones in
the first place.

The tolerences are so tight and finichy that I usually have had to
find alternate methods of getting the stone in place. When the rings
start to flex during wear and they all do, the geometry goes out
along with the diamonds. I really good as setters go and I’d rather
not ever see another invisible set ring for the rest of my career.

The public is now shying away from them because enough people have
bought them and gotten stung for hefty repair bill or couldn’t get
them repaired at all.

As for making them because you can order stones, I wouldn’t put them
in my line. Any setting style that almost garantees it going to come
back to haunt me I don’t make in the first place. Taking the metal
out of the design is silly in the first place.

From what I’m seem of most designs with invible set stones they are
rather boxy in shape. I know there are some really nice that have
curves with this type of setting in them, they are the exception.
Most likely the nightmare if anything falls out.

If they could be made and just set on a shelf and never worn, they
would be perfect.This type ring breaks a principal of jewellery, that
if it can’t be worn easily then it will not sell consistently.

Jim Zim
Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellers & Repair

74 
The tolerences are so tight and finichy that I usually have had to
find alternate methods of getting the stone in place. When the
rings start to flex during wear and they all do, the geometry goes
out along with the diamonds. I really good as setters go and I'd
rather not ever see another invisible set ring for the rest of my
career.

It is very interesting that you bringing it up now. I have meant to
post an update, just couldn’t get to it.

Let me summarize for the people who joined recently. At a time, I
have said that two methods, that are used to manufacture invisible
setting jewellery, are defective in a sense that stones are going to
fall out irrespective of anything. One method is the rail methods,
and the other one is casting stones in place.

There is the third method, described in the patent issued to Van
Cleef & Arpel. I have said than that I do not believe a word on that
patent, because it also required flawless execution working on the
very small scale. It is better than the rail method, but still
suffers
from the same shortcomings.

I have been continue my research and a few days ago, I have come
across a curious description of apparatus produced by General Crystal
Co. The company is no longer in business. It was located at 1776
Foster Ave, Schenectady, N.Y.

They developed a technique for bonding metal to precious stones
without any glue of any kind. A stone and metal were placed in
air-tight chamber. Air was pumped out and replaced with inert gas.
Also, there was tin, or alloy of tin and silver, present inside the
chamber. It is not clear whether tin was coating contact area, or was
simply there. The chamber was brought to 1200 degrees and stone and
the metal would unite in such a strong bond, that even hammer blows
could not break it apart.

Further research have yielded that it work on the same principal as
imparting color by diffusion methods. Atoms of tin penetrate crystal
lattice of gemstone and the metal, creating an unbreakable bond.
Technique has been perfected since then and widely employed in
microchip production.

So it appear that invisible setting can be produce simply by placing
stone in place, and subjecting jewellery to the same treatment.

For the subject lost all the interest. The method simply requires
technological gadgetry without involving any real skills.

Leonid Surpin

75 
For the subject lost all the interest. The method simply requires
technological gadgetry without involving any real skills.

Sounds like a model change from the Big Three during the fifties.
Lots of fancy new tin on top with nothing different under the hood.
This type of idea breaks the contract between a Jeweller and a
customer. That would be that “I can repair what I sell and am an
expert on the subject”.

When the basic amount of money to do this type of setting is equal
to grouse national product of a small country, no one except the
manufacturing company can work of the jewellery. So it can’t be
changed or repaired locally. Unless it’s dirt cheap to get it
repaired
or altered by the Manufacturer. That has never been the case as far
as I have ever seen. Why carry it?

Jewellery customers have gotten used to being able to get there
jewellery in three days to a week. The turn around time on factory
repairs is months.

I seen a number of companies come and go that wanted to cut out the
skilled jewellery repairman or the setter. I keep making jewellery I
can repair and have a rapport with the customer on it maintenance of
the item. My jewellery sells better and I’m still around because I’m
local.

These companies rise on invested dollars and come crashing down on
down when they go against the contract between the customer and the
craftsman. Which then begs the question, “Where do you get it
repaired now”.

Jim

Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellers & Repair