How hard is engraving to do?

Jewelry Discussion
81

Listen people, it’s the end product that matters. I’ve seen so much
poor engraving by “seasoned” engravers, it would sicken you. You want
to see chatter marks? There’s plenty of examples out there from old
school engravers. These individuals push that tool far beyond the
time they should have retired. What if you’re 65 years old and have
carpel tunnel? Aren’t you going to want that mechanical assist? I
sure as hell would. It’s all in how proficient you are with your
technique and how well you sharpen that tool. How engraving “should”
be done? Please, that’s an elitist view. I’ve probably seen more
engraving from around the world than anyone on this list. As a
restoration specialist, I can say with absolute conviction that
there are damn few outstanding holloware engravers left in this
country.

If someone asks you to make a simple, smooth bowl, are you going to
raise it or spin it? Does it matter as long as you end up with the
same results? Of course not.

See, you got me all cranky first thing in the morning ;~)

Jeff Herman
Herman Restoration & Conservation

82 
but when you say 'engraving' you're really talking about the sort
of engraving that printmakers do on copper plates for gravure (?)
printing, correct? (or niellists, or say the old-time newspaper
illustration engravers.)

Yes, this is true. I should have been more specific. For me true
engraving is lettering. Engraving guns, knifes, doing inlay, and
etc… are wonderful techniques and can look very impressive, but if
you want to judge real skills look at the lettering.

I will take a minute to explain what I am looking for in engraving.
Why lettering ? Because a lot of mistakes can be hidden in scroll
work and we all know how letters look, so even slight irregularity
becomes apparent.

I was taught to subdivide letters in arcs which can be made in
counter- clockwise direction. Also, while cutting an arc, the graver
is given a tilt by wrist rotation. The larger the tilt, the wider the
cut. Tapering achieved by rotating the wrist in and out of the arc.
Straight cuts are never made parallel to the surface but slightly
inclined.

What it all means ? Let’s look at letter “s” which I mentioned
previously. Properly cut it should have 4 cuts. First is upper arc,
starting at the beginning and ending in the center ( a tad higher ),
then lower part starting at the end and also ending in the center
meeting the first cut. Since all cuts are done in counter-clockwise,
the plane inclination of the cuts would be different. The skill lies
in been able to cut so these planes meet each other in the same way
like facets on a diamond. Other two cuts are finishing triangular
cuts at the beginnings of arcs comprising the letter “s”. So when we
done the letter “s” would have 4 facets. Other letters approached in
similar way. Bear in mind that sometimes letters are only 0.8 mm in
height.

What we trying to do is to cut all the letters so all facets( cuts )
meet on the same level and in the same way. Such inscription on
frosted background is absolutely breathtaking. Since every facet
reflect light at different angle, they all have different color and
when object is rotated, the inscription sparkle like a well cut
diamond.

This is a theoretical goal and engraving is judged on how close one
got to this goal. One may never be able to achieve it, it is well
worth the time to keep trying.

Leonid Surpin

83 
I am not implying it. I am stating it outright ! Make an effort
and find examples of hand engraving by someone who knows how it
should be done. Upon examination no words would be necessary.

OK, I made an effort. Did you actually look at the example I posted?
Here it is again http://tinyurl.com/5rx2ko. It is a fine example of
work done with a GraverMax. Perhaps you can say where it could be
improved by not using the GraverMax?

Regards, Gary Wooding

84

Another interesting thread.

With any process or technique It might be wise to keep things in
perspective. Are you out to win the supreme accolades of your peers?
Are you out to make a living? Something else?

There comes a point where having nothing but the purist of values
may price you right out of the market. Yes there will always be the
customer who wants the finest available. The questions in my mind at
that point would be “Am I the finest”? and “will that customer find
me”? There’s a whole bunch more customers who just want something
nice. It might be gauche but there’s some marvelous rewards in
volume. You can make money either way.

As to the Gravermax itself vs hand gravers… they are tools, how
good is the tooler would be the difference.

85 
I truly believe these machines were made for "intermediate, or
advanced" levels of engravers..not novices.

I’m a little at a loss at this sort of statement, although this post
is not aimed at you specifically Gerry. It’s been said in as many
words by a few people. Not one of us “beginners” has ever suggested
that we think it’s a machine for beginners. I know exactly what the
machine is and what it does and the first time I saw one, I was NOT
under some illusion that you could switch it on and hey presto
you’re an engraver. I’m not that simple-minded.

I know full well that hand skills should be learned and practiced
for a good while first, before moving onto any device which makes
things a little easier on the joints. I make everything by hand. I
don’t buy bezel strip or pre-made settings or shanks. I make my own.
I will continue to do things by hand for a long time to come as that
is the market that I have chosen to be part of. I may at some point
down the line, invest in things such as a hammer hand piece or even a
Gravermach/Gravermax or whatever they’re called, but not before I’ve
had a fair few years’ experience doing it the traditional way first.
I’m even thinking of buying a rotary/vibratory/tumbler to improve my
working conditions - but I have no intention of buying every device
under the sun with the thought that they will magically make me a
“jeweller”.

A Gravermax, in much the same way as a hammer handpiece, is just a
device that provides extra force and therefore relieving the
stresses on one’s own body. You still have to have the skill to guide
the tool and to do that you must be able to engrave first. Us
beginners are perhaps not as quite as delusional as some of the more
experienced on the list would believe.

Helen
UK

86 
I am sure that there are many hand engravers who have found the
electric gadgets useful to increase their work output and perhaps
ease the stress on their hands, which I agree is good business. But
if you are starting to learn the art of metal engraving, learn the
hand method first before you invest in the machines,

Somebody else said pretty much the same thing, today, too. Tools,
tools, tools…hmmm? I counted, and I have 11 whetstones of all
kinds. That’s not counting around 15 grinding wheels. I have 37
gravers, some of which are liners and some that are more properly
called burins. Then I also have tiny, bigger, large and larger
chisels - probably 35 or so, for carving, like wood and stuff.
There’s an old, obscure Jefferson Airplane song, “Look at the wood
and the way he carves it, must have taken him years…” None of
those make me any better an engraver (I’m a better carver) than if I
had one stone and a couple of gravers.

I’ve said it before, and I believe it’s true - engraving is the most
difficult skill of all to master. It’s only your hand and a piece of
steel - and a work holder, light, etc. It makes little difference if
you have power or not if you can’t make the curve.

A local plant expert put it best: “The best time to plant a fruit
tree is ten years ago, the second best time is today.”

87

Wow, I checked out the engraving at http://tinyour.com. All I can
say is wow. Gary, you made your point. One can do superb work with
The GraverMax.

Alma

88 
With any process or technique It might be wise to keep things in
perspective. Are you out to win the supreme accolades of your
peers? Are you out to make a living? Something else?

My living does not depend on whether I sell my jewellery or not. I
am, shall we say, semi-retired. I will only work on what I like. I
have been in this business for a while and anybody can see that
overall quality of jewellery has been declining. Now we reached the
point that someone can push a button on a computer and a wax model
will magically appear at the other end. No matter that a button
pusher
cannot tell the difference between a drill and a toothpick. And it
goes without saying that this computer creation look it.

My philosophy is different. Jewellery is not something which someone
must have. It is what someone wants. People make significant
emotional investment in jewellery, and in my experience is that they
gladly pay more if they enjoy owning the jewellery.

A lot of people bargain just out of habit. Usually they spot what
they like and they will buy it no matter what. All preliminaries is
just a foreplay. Both parties know that they are going to wind up in
bed. So the jewellery must have this aura of irresistibility, which
can only result if goldsmith constantly pushing for the higher and
higher standards. Mediocrity has no place at the bench. There are no
perfect jewellery. It simply does not exist. But if we do not strive
for perfection, if “good enough” becomes a norm than why bother ? I
do not enjoy sitting at the bench making widgets. There are many
other
ways to make money. There has to be something else that drives all of
us, or we would not be doing it.

Leonid Surpin

89 
may I give you some advice, first buy the book " Engraving on
Precious Metals" by A. Brittain and P. Morton, which costs about 24
dollars from amazon. This will give you all the you
need on what tools and equipment you will need to get started on
hand engraving. I started with this book, a scribe, a graver, a
leather pad and a small sheet of polished copper plate.

As a full-time hand engraver, I was taught with hand gravers and
sharpening stones. We used “The Jewelry Engravers Manuel”, by R.
Allen Hardy as our textbook, along with the “Engraving on Precious
Metals”. While the “Engravers Manual” deals more with lettering and
monograms, it does provide an excellent guide to sharpening gravers
for this purpose. “Engraving on Precious Metals” has a broader scope
of engraving practices, and valuable not found in the
“Manual”.

One of the most difficult aspects to learning to engrave, is getting
the gravers properly sharpened and working for you. It helps to have
some kind of holder, especially starting out, so that you can keep
the sharpening angles consistent. Otherwise, your gravers may work at
first, but every time you sharpen or polish, and the angle begins to
change in very small increments until it doesn’t cut well. If you
use a crocker of some sort, you can eliminate graver changes from
your initial list of challenges. : ) My experience has shown me that
each engraver sharpens their tools to suit themselves, and each will
be slightly different one from another. You must find the combination
that will work best for you, your bench height, and the type of
material you are cutting.

One of my first purchases (after an high quality block) was GRS’s
Power Hone. I had alot of trouble early on with sharpening, and I
couldn’t keep my angles consistant. The power hone & diamond wheel
give consistant and well polished results every time, and its simple
for quick touch-ups. I eventually got a gravermax, for physical
reasons, it has eliminated the elbow and shoulder issues that were
beginning to crop up. I can work longer hours, and have more
physical strength for deep engraving and carving. This is good for
production work, although I can get finer results on sterling and
platinum if I opt to use my hand gravers.

I believe that the ability to feel the cutting action of the graver
as it slides through the metal can give you a tremendous
understanding of the nuances of a finely engraved and beautiful line.
I don’t get this feeling completely when I am using the Gravermax,
but I am still in control of the graver, and the end result. For this
reason alone, I think all beginning engravers should work with hand
gravers before they start to use any power assist. I love to cut
family crests, so using the Gravermax for the largest grunt part of
this kind of work is a must for me, but I always finish the finest
details by hand.

And develop alot of patience!
Melissa Veres, engraver

90 
I may at some point down the line, invest in things such as a
hammer hand piece or even a Gravermach/Gravermax or whatever
they're called, but not before I've had a fair few years'
experience doing it the traditional way first.

Helen (and all), I decided, much as you have, to take up engraving
around 30 years ago. Although I have since done “engraving” pieces -
a plate with a scene on it or a candy dish ornately engraved, my
goal has always been much more like I think Helen’s goals are, which
is to be able to put some lines here and there with some confidence.
I have not the slightest interest in engraving lettering or
monograms, and I truly can barely do it. (First rule of life: If you
don’t like to do something make damn sure you don’t do it well). But
I can engrave rings, put veins on leaves, use them as chisels on
wax, and quite a lot more.

The real point being that I’m not “An Engraver”, and I don’t want to
be. I use gravers to do what I want to do when I need to, and I’m
content with that. I have reached my goal, even if that goal is not
what an engraving school would want me to be. I would guess there
are some on this thread who are like me, and some who want to do the
serious work on Lindsay’s forums - all of which is fine and dandy.

And - Gravermeisters are expensive and take a fair amount of real
estate. Throw in a microscope and you’re into a fair used car.
Lindsay’s would be my choice, and that’s even more. I just can’t
justify that for the amount of work I do - they are for professional
or at least dedicated engravers, which I am not. So - I may actually
get one sometime, because I do want one, but I’ve been push
engraving to my own satisfaction for years - even today a graver and
handle is under ten bucks…

91

Mr. Miller, your posted story of the electrical shortage reminded me
of an experience I had in London in the mid '70’s. I was visiting a
very well known colleague and sharing the demonstration of our
surgical techniques at Hammersmith. He was showing one of his
referring ophthalmologists the use of a new electrically powered,
ultra-sonic cataract machine when it failed to function because of
an air leak that we could neither find nor repair in the operating
theater. Finally he turned to me and said, “David, perhaps you could
demonstrate your instrumentation.” I could easily do that because I
had all of the needed instruments in little sterile bags in my
pocket. As I was removing the patient’s cataract we could hear the
head sister (british for nurse in charge) in the hallway muttering,
“But Mr. Arnot, thirty thousand pounds!”

And to you, Sir, my greatest respect and compliments for the
wonderful skill and artistry of your work.

Dr. Mac

92

Leonid,

My living does not depend on whether I sell my jewellery or not. I
am, shall we say, semi-retired.

If you don’t need to make a living from your jewelry then I would
suggest that you take a different tone and attitude with those of us
who DO have to make a living. It’s all great to take a high and
mighty stance on what is required to make the perfect jewelry item
if you don’t actually have to sell the stuff.

For those of us who do have to sell our wares on a regular basis, we
are often forced to deal with the realities of both the marketplace,
our available time and what is involved in actually making a living
every day from this craft. There are plenty of times when I could sit
there and use a hand file to carefully file off some piece of metal
in the old fashioned way so that I could make some piece, that in
some purist’s imagination, is the ideal way to do something, or I
could just get out the flex shaft with a grinding wheel and deal with
it in one tenth the amount of time (and still finish it off
properly). If I had all the time in the world, I’m sure I’d love to
sit there for an extra ten minutes and file the thing by hand. On the
other hand, I’m not retired and I can’t afford that time. I have
little enough as it is. The advantage of living in times like these
are that modern scientific advances have actually made a lot of jobs
easier and quicker to do. That does not mean that they are not as
good a method to make something with, just that they are faster and
more efficient. If the difference is only visible under a microscope
then who cares? Not a single one of my customers carries around a
microscope to compare the engraved lines in a piece to see if they
are hand done or machine done. And the only ones who ever came in
with a loupe did it to make it look like they knew far more than
they actually did.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC

93 
If you don't need to make a living from your jewelry then I would
suggest that you take a different tone and attitude with those of
us who DO have to make a living. It's all great to take a high and
mighty stance on what is required to make the perfect jewelry item
if you don't actually have to sell the stuff.

I understand that all of us must bow to the realities of life, but
it does not mean that we have to be crashed by them. I am simply
trying to awake that instinct that drove us to this business in the
first place. I have training in several fields, but what I want to do
is goldsmithing in the old traditional way. If all I wanted is the
income, there are easier places to get it from.

Leonid Surpin

1 Like
94 
my goal has always been much more like I think Helen's goals are,
which is to be able to put some lines here and there with some
confidence.

Yep, you’ve got it John. That’s all I want out of it. I made a pet
tag for our cat last week, in the shape of a cat’s head/face. I
struggled, but managed to engrave its features satisfactorily. I’d
like to get to the stage where I can accomplish such simple things
with confidence, rather than just satisfactorily. It’s just a case
of practice, practice, practice and keeping those gravers sharpened
of course.

Helen
UK

95

Hi Leonid,

Now we reached the point that someone can push a button on a
computer and a wax model will magically appear at the other end.
No matter that a button pusher cannot tell the difference between
a drill and a toothpick. And it goes without saying that this
computer creation look it.

Speaking of buttons, I’m starting to think that you just enjoy
pushing peoples button’s Leonid. I really think you are off the mark
when you imply that the tool will always determine the result. In
regards to your computer/wax model analogy, you are most incorrect
in my opinion. I have been hand carving waxes for 30 years, I hired
a guy who had been carving waxes for 18 years. He is a wax carving
superstar, carves animals, faces, anything. So between the two of us
we had tons of experience. I purchased Matrix and REVO, CAD/CAM a
few years ago. And I can honestly say that if someone who knows how
to carve waxes and finish and set jewelry is using CAD to create the
models, you can’t tell if it was hand carved or milled or grown.
There is no magic involved, beautiful is beautiful.

I think it’s exactly the same with engraving. A super experienced
and skilled hand engraver will do super fine work with a push graver
or with a Lindsay Airgraver. Beautiful is beautiful.

Every tool has it’s limitations just like every craftsperson does.
It’s wrong to give people looking for guidance the impression that
there is only one way to do things, or only one tool to use. I think
good work is good work and the method or tools used to create that
good work can vary. And that’s OK.

Mark