How hard is engraving to do?

Jewelry Discussion
61 
Really, do we need to tell what is "the real thing" ? Why not just
discuss the different methods of engraving, hand pushing gravers,
hammer and chisel, and so on instead....

The reason that we need that is to preserve the skill. If usage of
Gravermax would become widespread, the skill would become absolute.
In hand engraving (push engraving is non-sensical term), the main
actor is the left hand (for right handed), while with Gravermax it is
the other way around. The appearance of the cut is quite different,
the bio-mechanics involved is quite different. Gravermax cutting
totally devoid of nuance. The best way to describe the difference is
given the same design, two different people using Gravermax would
achieve the same result. Using hand engraving, the final result will
be quite distinct. It is the same thing like brushwork of the
painter. There are good copies of the famous paintings, but upon
examination, the difference becomes obvious.

Leonid Surpin

62 
It is more like saying that a stone carver who uses an air tool
instead of a hand chisel and mallet is not really a stone carver.

Au contraire. In carving we work with masses. How the extra bulk is
removed is not important. Power assist make sense.

In engraving we work with lines only. To give parallel to
calligraphy it is like trying to do calligraphy, but using screwdriver
instead of the quill.

Leonid Surpin

63 
So, yes, I suppose that if you want to do "everything" by hand
that is okay. Do you use the blow torch (with your mouth for air)
or do you solder in the traditional method that is used today? How
do you polish your work? Do you use a buffing wheel with compounds
on it? Or do you polish by hand? How do you grind your gravers? Do
you do it manually with a file and sandpaper or do you use a
grinding wheel? How do you polish them?

Actually my answers to the above would surprise you but to the
larger point. I am not diminishing your work or anyone elseā€™s on the
account the technique. Metal carving is an honorable skill. I did a
lot of chasing and repousse at one time. The same arguments. If you
work from the face it is chasing, if you work from underside, it is
repousse. In practice both techniques needs to be employed on the
same piece. And the argument lives on. Is that a chasing or a
repousse? Only an expert can tell the difference, but techniques,
tools, even hammers used are very different. So distinction is
important.

Carving and engraving are in the same relationship. It is important
to understand the difference, but neither of the techniques are
superior to one another.

Leonid Surpin

64

Two great sites for instructional classes and vides on engraving:

Steve Lindsey: http://www.lindsayengraving.com
Sam Alfano: http://www.masterengraver.com

Both of these individuals are truly master engravers. Check out the
videos on this page; theyā€™re beautifully produced:
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/school/private/videos.htm. I watch
them over and overā€¦itā€™s very calming :~)

Jeff Herman

65 
if you are using Gravermax, you are not an engraver. You are
Gravermax operator.

Cut me a break, Leonid!

Thatā€™s like saying if you write on a computer, and not longhand with
pen and paper that you are not a writer.

I totally disagree with you.

According to the dictionary the definition of engraving is: to carve
(a text or design) on the surface of a hard object.

If I set stones using a hammer handpiece, and not a hammer- does
that mean that I am not a stone setter- but a hammer handpiece
operator?

-Kate Wolf in Portland, Maine hosting wicked good workshops by the bay.
www.katewolfdesigns.com www.wolftools.com

66

Hi Gary,

Light relief being "engraving" and high relief being "metal
carving". He cites the term "engraved tombstone" as applied to the
carved text on a headstone. This is clearly done with a hammer and
chisel, but is actually known as engraving.

Some of this work may have been done with SKILL & a hammer & chisel.
However today the majority of it is done using pneumatics, abrasion
&/or cnc.

A few years ago the text & design were cut into a rubber sheet about
1/8" thick. This was adhered to the side of the stone to be
ā€˜engravedā€™ & then the stone was blasted with a pneumatic gun blowing
an appropriate abrasive. It took some skill to get the correct depth
& any tapers to the ā€˜engravingā€™.

Dave

67 
I'm sure that a good engraver's work with a Gravermax is
indistinguishable from good engraving from unassisted methods.

But yes, Helen, even though the big picture of machine assisted
engraving is at itā€™s best indistinguishable from hand work, close
examination can tell the difference. Thereā€™s a sllight wave in the
stroke. The hand goes forward, while the machine goes
forward-back-forward-back, which leaves a certain finish. As can be
seen on the engraving forums and galleries, the final result is up
to the hand of the engraver, but technically differences can be
seen. Itā€™s never the tool, itā€™s always the hand that counts.

68

:open_mouth: Devoid of nuance ??? Iā€™ve seen work by engravers who use
Gravermach/Max and there certainly was no lack of nuance. If there is
nuance or not, is in the hands and mind of the engraver no matter if
they use hand gravers or power assisted.

Distinct final results is also achieved with power assisted tools.
Still takes a lot of practice.

I donā€™t believe that two different people will achieve the same
results with a Gravermax when given the same design. Not even if they
were identical twins. People are different and cut a little different
too. The Gravermax doesnā€™t work like a pantographā€¦

Finally I donā€™t see why it is needed to compare famous
paintings/copies against using a Gravermax. I find that very
far-fetched. By doing so you imply that Gravermax users by default
can only create second rate engravings. Not very niceā€¦

Per A-hrn, Sweden - learning engraving/stonesetting with the GraverMach.

69 
Both of these individuals are truly master engravers. Check out
the videos on this page; they're beautifully produced:
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/school/private/videos.htm.

Great videos, but a few points.

  1. Master engraver can engrave with a nail and have better results
    than a run of the mill engraver.

  2. He himself saying that use of his tool is for increased speed.
    Quality at best is equal (a matter of opinion).

  3. The most important point is as good as he is, the power assist
    ruined even his technique. Watch the video and pay attention to his
    execution of small letter ā€œsā€. He does it in one stroke. Classical
    technique requires 2 strokes meeting in the center. Also, sometimes
    he executes strokes clockwise. Only counter-clockwise for
    right-handed is recommended.

I guess his tool allows it without noticeable loss of quality and
that is where time saving comes from. If that is too dogmatic, my
apologies. In conclusion: After a few years, we all have some
shortcuts in our arsenal. But when we use it, we know how it should be
done, and we making conscientious trade off knowing what we loose and
what we find. This is different from recommending a tool as a remedy
for the wanting technique.

Leonid Surpin

70 
Both of these individuals are truly master engravers. Check out
the videos on this page; they're beautifully produced:

Oh Jeff!

What a delight. Iā€™ve just spent half an hour watching some of these
videos. Rather like meditating while listening to bees buzzing.

Thanks, Renate

71

Iā€™m sure that a good engraverā€™s work with a Gravermax is
indistinguishable from good engraving from unassisted methods.

close examination can tell the difference.

I wondered about this after I posted. I guess the hammer action has
to have some impact on the appearance close up. Having recently had
a go at hand engraving, and had the thumb pains associated with such,
I would have no problem whatsoever with using assisted methods.

I can understand where Leonid is coming from in that he desperately
wants to hang onto traditions and not see them die out. As such,
maybe he should specialize in the ancient techniques he wants to
preserve and be a sort of ā€œliveā€ museum, showing paying folks how
goldsmithing used to be done, before modern technology came along.

Helen
UK

72 
The reason that we need that is to preserve the skill. If usage of
Gravermax would become widespread, the skill would become
absolute. In hand engraving (push engraving is non-sensical term),
the main actor is the left hand (for right handed), while with
Gravermax it is the other way around.

My thing with the gravermax is that itā€™s expensive:) I have
personally had a long standing interest in doing engraving, but a
poor sense of where to start. Can those on the list who do engraving
give me a suggestion for the materials I should buy to get started?

Paul Anderson

73 
By doing so you imply that Gravermax users by default can only
create second rate engravings. Not very nice..

I am not implying it. I am stating it outright ! Make an effort and
find examples of hand engraving by someone who knows how it should be
done. Upon examination no words would be necessary.

Leonid Surpin

74

These videos and pics were merely to demonstrate engraving. Iā€™m not
advocating one technique over another (Graver Max vs. non-mechanical
assist).

Jeff Herman

75 
My thing with the gravermax is that it's expensive:) I have
personally had a long standing interest in doing engraving, but a
poor sense of where to start.

Start with a good book. An excellent one was mentioned in the
beginning of this thread. Do not buy a single tool until you read the
book and then buy only what you immediately need. That way the
expense
is minimal, but still considerable. Beware of second hand engravings
blocks unless you can make sure that rotation is smooth. Oil stones
must be top quality. Bench is important but does not have to be
fancy. My first bench was floor model of old RCA television set.
Gravermax and other are production tools. You sacrifice quality to
gain speed. As a learning tool they are outright destructive.

Leonid Surpin

76 
As such, maybe he should specialize in the ancient techniques he
wants to preserve and be a sort of "live" museum, showing paying
folks how goldsmithing used to be done, before modern technology
came along.

I hope it is a compliment, but I am not sure. Modern technology is a
fine thing if it helps. On balance, in jewellery arts, it is very
destructive.

Jewelers were able to make a good living because supply of good
jewellery was always limited. There were more customers than well
made jewellery. I am not capable of making more that a couple of
dozen of pieces per any given year, and that is how I like it.
ā€œTechnological improvementsā€ create unlimited supply of inferior
goods. That causes craftsmen to compete working harder and harder for
less and less money. I do not want any part of it. There was a great
expression on this forum. If I have to starve to death, I prefer as
less labour as possible.

Leonid Surpin

77 
My thing with the gravermax is that it's expensive:) I have
personally had a long standing interest in doing engraving, but a
poor sense of where to start.

The best engraver around here that I know (who also teaches at
Revere) offered to sell me a Gravermax long ago. He tried it and
didnā€™t like it - that was also a long time ago, and Iā€™m sure they
are better now.

And, as I have said before, while Iā€™m capable of hacking out some
lines (OK, Iā€™m better than THAT), Iā€™m by no stretch of the meaning
ā€œAn Engraverā€. Surely there will be posts here on the how to get
started end. But itā€™s been said many, many times here - ā€œGo West,
Young man!ā€:

http://www.igraver.com

The videos posted here come from those, there are links to
everything on earth relating to engraving, and the forums are just
fabulous. Those sites have the finest engravers on the planet as
regulars. I remember seeing a shotgun presented to the King of
Spain, and Browningā€™s one millionth gun posted there by the
engravers. Thatā€™s not to say that itā€™s a substitute for real
training and it will take a thousand hours of practice. But those
sites are a gold mine of all things engraving, hand, powered or
indifferentā€¦ Hopefully some will post some good advise here, too,
but those sites are ground zero for engraving, online.

78

If you give a Graver-Max to a student who knows little or anything
pertaining to jewellery making. He or she will still make make a
poor attempt in working with this machineā€¦I truly believe these
machines were made for ā€œintermediate, or advancedā€ levels of
engraversā€¦not novices. Two things are necessary with a
Graver-Maxā€¦prior knowledge of graver usage, its metal strengths, how
the graver can cut, and not relying on this machine to do wonders for
anyones inexperienced hands. Its like saying ā€œhere is a beginners
drivers-licence, now go drive at NASCARā€ Donā€™t get me wrong
hereā€¦these machines are fantastic to those who know all of the
intricacies of engravingā€¦but there is a point to all of thisā€¦You
must first know the limits of the graversā€¦this machine is only a
"tool to improve" on your already learned ability. In my numerous
articles on graver usage, I try and explain all of the nuances of
graver-cutting and shapingā€¦the Graver-Max cannot do this while its
doing the actual cuttingā€¦ Case in point, I once went to a jeweller
who bought once of these machinesā€¦He had no prior understanding on
gravers, he didnā€™t now even how to grind a graver. All I did was to
prepare a few gravers for him and he was surprised how little he
knewā€¦Gerry!

79

First, to Paul Anderson,

Paul you ask what you need to start engraving, may I give you some
advice, first buy the book " Engraving on Precious Metals" by A.
Brittain and P. Morton, which costs about 24 dollars from amazon.
This will give you all the you need on what tools and
equipment you will need to get started on hand engraving. I started
with this book, a scribe, a graver, a leather pad and a small sheet
of polished copper plate.

Then to all who are knocking Leonid Surpinā€™s comments about his
views on engraving. I am a goldsmith taught the old traditional
methods of manufacture, including hand engraving. I have seen the
wonders and effects of modern techniques such as the Gravermax, which
is good for itā€™s purpose. But I have also seen effective engraving
and patterning achieved by a German made computer controled router
made by J. Schmalz, where all you need to do is scan in a line
drawing and the program will cut and repeat cutting the same design
endlessly until the cutting head tool needs sharpening, which is
also done automatically. The result of these clever machines is that
now, if you are happy with the results, one operator can do the work
of 50 hand engravers each day, hence no need for hand engravers. I am
sure that there are many hand engravers who have found the electric
gadgets useful to increase their work output and perhaps ease the
stress on their hands, which I agree is good business. But if you are
starting to learn the art of metal engraving, learn the hand method
first before you invest in the machines, remember those who can work
with their hands can carry on working even when the electricity is
off. I remember back in the 1960 here in the UK, when we had a power
crisis, everyone was told they could only have electricity 3 days
each week, so many companies only worked a 3 day week, but our
workshop still worked a 5 day week as we were hand workers and could
continue working effectively without electricity.

Finally with reference to satin finishing, when I mentioned my
scratch brush unit I did not mention that I also used soapy water as
a lubricant, I also use a plug in, rheostat unit that controls the
motor speed when I want slower speeds. I do a lot of antique
restoration jobs these days and the scratch brush unit is perfect for
polishing items and preserving their antique patinas and gold
colours.

Peace and good health to all
James Miller FIPG.

80

Hi Helen:

Having spent years doing hand engraving (or metal carving, as Leonid
would have it), and also having recently splurged and bought myself
a gravermach, you can tell the differenceā€¦but only through a
microscope. If you crank the strokes per minute up into the thousands
range, the stutter marks are so minute that youā€™ll never spot them by
eye, or even with a 10X loupe. Cranking my scope up to 40X, yeah, I
can see them, but how many people are ever going to be looking at my
work with a 40X scope? (Realistically, depending on the nature of the
cutting tool, and how uptight you wanted to get about it, you might
be able to spot them under 10X, but only if you knew what to look
for, and my tool was either very wide, or very dull.)

Iā€™ve been following the whole ā€œone true engravingā€ discussion from
the sidelines, and I think Iā€™ve discovered something. Leonid, correct
me if Iā€™m wrong, but when you say ā€˜engravingā€™ youā€™re really talking
about the sort of engraving that printmakers do on copper plates for
gravure (?) printing, correct? (or niellists, or say the old-time
newspaper illustration engravers.) For them, the copper plate was
just a tool to get ink onto paper, so they didnā€™t care about the look
of the copper plate. So for them, the only thing that mattered was
the width and nature of the incised line. Depth, and internal angle
were irrelevant. (This is not to open a discussion about printmakers
versus metalsmiths, itā€™s just thatā€™s the only way I can think of to
describe the precise nature of the engraving Iā€™m talking about.) You
see similar engraving on old plate items, with coats of arms,
monograms & etc.

However you think of it, thatā€™s the sort of engraving youā€™re talking
about? No depth, just lines of various widths incised onto the
surface. So, in the end, youā€™re defining ā€˜engravingā€™ by the nature of
the end product, correct?

It seems that many of the rest of the people involved in the thread
are defining ā€œengravingā€ as ā€œalmost anything done with an engraving
toolā€, and are defining it by the process, rather than any
particular end product, or style of work.

This is not to say that one is better than the other, but this
difference of definition seems to be at the root of the confusion.

Regards,
Brian Meek.