I am currently using a GRS shelf for my engraving block, which
lowers it into the right range to work on.
I’m in agreement with you M’lou. People have said in the past that
one should have separate areas/benches for forming, soldering,
polishing, etc and that’s great if you have the space, but for those
of us whose “studios” consist of one jeweller’s bench and no more
space than that, compromises have to be made. I have a bench vice
where I do all my stone setting. It’s awkward and I intend to change
it at some point for something like an engraver’s ball or GRS’s
Magnablock. I bought a tall stool which is exactly the right height
for stone setting or engraving using my vice, with work set in GRS’s
Thermo-loc. So these things are possible if you use your ingenuity.
I’m not sure what it is you are trying to say - that engravers who
do their work whilst standing don’t know what they are doing?? Would
you care to clarify? I enjoy the music of the Beatles just as much as
respecting the work of a classical guitarist. Engravers who stand are
often working with a hammer and chisel rather than push engraving and
the extra mobility allows to move around larger objects. Surely you
would be more concerned with the finished product not the position
the craftsman puts himself into to acheive the finished result.
I bought a tall stool which is exactly the right height for stone
setting or engraving using my vice, with work set in GRS's
Thermo-loc. So these things are possible if you use your
ingenuity.
That’s the spirit, Helen! The only requirement really is that you
can see your work, and that you are in a position that you are
comfortable in. Some purists might say differently, but the results
are what’s important. As Kevin said, some of the finest engraving
ever done was done while the engraver was standing. On some pieces
that’s the only way it could be done. And I don’t think anyone can
look at some engraving and determine the position of the engraver,
anymore than they can listen to music and be able to say whether the
musician was holding their instrument correctly or not. The Beatles
seemed to be able to turn clowning around into a pretty successful
career. Some might even say they changed the music world just a tiny
bit even though the techniques they were using were all wrong. If I
remember right, Jimi Hendrix played the guitar upside down and
backwards and he managed to get by alright, so take what you hear
about the right or wrong way to do anything with a grain of salt.
I also have never seen an engraver’s bench, let alone worked at one.
My Dad used to do some really beautiful engraving at the dining room
table. Many of today’s finest engravers use a drill press stand and
table. Like you Helen, most of us make do with what we have. If I
took all of the recommendations for different benches for wax,
platinum, gold, soldering etc, I’d have to have more than one shop
for all the benches. I just do it all at the same bench, as I suspect
most people do. Works for me. Works just fine for you too, by the
sound of it.
The Beatles seemed to be able to turn clowning around into a pretty
successful career.
Indeed. I’ve had classical guitar lessons in which, as Leonid said,
the thumb is held behind the neck of the guitar, never to be seen.
I’ve also had guitar lessons from a teacher who had a long career as
a rock musician and toured with Bob Dylan (he has the posters and
press clippings to show for it). He would constantly try to get me to
use my left thumb and actually hook it round to fret notes on the
base string - totally against all instincts, having played classical
guitar!!! However, “there is more than one way to skin a cat” as
they say. There are many different types of guitar music, all with
different styles of playing. The only rules when working for
oneself, are those which you impose on yourself. I’m sure the same
can be said of engraving. Leonid has clearly been taught by a strict
regime of rules and regulations with dire consequences in the case of
failure. He has also explained that one of the reasons for such a
regime is the scarcity of materials (especially in old
Russia. I’m sure the rest of us could learn a lot from Leonid’s ways
and I’d bet that his scrap pile is much smaller than many of us,
because his methods are so meticulously planned out in advance. But
I’m happy to bungle along my way without the added expense and hassle
of going out and finding a dedicated engraving bench!
People have said in the past that one should have separate
areas/benches for forming, soldering, polishing, etc and that's
great if you have the space, but for those of us whose "studios"
consist of one jeweller's bench
Most commercial jewelers through the years only had 1 bench, I do
all my stonesetting, soldering, flexshaft polishing, filing,
everything one one bench. I have a separate wax bench and my big
polishing machine is in anogther room. My father was a true master
engraver and he put the engraving block in the drawer of his bench.
Every once in a while I will solder something big at my casting table
with the big torch and I hate it. Standing up with nothing to support
my hands drives me crazy. When I am sitting at my bench soldering I
can prop my wrist, elbows, hands or all three to keep from moving. I
am a true believer in learing to do anything the old way, but once
you do I love the modern machines to help, for this thread the GRS
gravermax or other air tools. Just got one and absolutely love it,
flat setting is easier and faster and what little engraving I do it
makes it effortless. Again I stress, it DOES NOT MAKE YOU a stone
setter or engraver, it just makes the job easier once you know how.
I'm not sure what it is you are trying to say - that engravers who
do their work whilst standing don't know what they are doing??
Would you care to clarify? I enjoy the music of the Beatles just as
much as respecting the work of a classical guitarist. Engravers who
stand are often working with a hammer and chisel rather than push
engraving
You answered you own question. Engravers do not work with hammers
and chisels. Metal carvers do. There is no such thing as a “push”
engraving also. In 95% of technique it is the object that moves and
not the tool. The other 5% are the exceptions to general technique.
Surely you would be more concerned with the finished product not
the position the craftsman puts himself into to acheive the
finished result.
That may be more important than you would think. It’s been about two
months, now, and I’m almost recovered from the injuries I gave
myself by ignoring the ergonomics. (Depending on which of my
substantial medical staff you believe, it’s somewhere between
“tennis elbow” and “a thumb that’s out of alignment”.) And I’m not
doing this all day, every day, yet.
I’ll grant that I may be an exception case, since my chronic pain
meds may prevent me from feeling warning signals that most people
would notice sooner, and would change positions sooner, but I have
read – on this list – about “dentist’s thumb”, and others here
with similar thumb pains.
Engravers do not work with hammers and chisels. Metal carvers do.
After I purchased my Gravermax, purchased due to carpal tunnel
surgery, I took a class from a local goldsmith/engraver I have known
for many years. He engraves everything from jewellery in silver,
gold and platinum to guns and knives of various metals including
damascus steel. He taught us some basics using the hand push method
and a hammer with the engraver as well as the proper use of the
Gravermax. He told us that while the Gravermax is a good tool for
engraving, especially if you have any hand injuries such as the
surgery I have had, there are certain things that are very hard to do
except by hand or hammer. I haven’t as yet run into those, but then I
am still just a beginner.
I agree with you I have the next one up the Gravermach and it does
alot. I engrave, set stones and chase with it. I love it, I purchased
it because of hand and back issues and it is a life saver.
Thank you Shelley Finley at Glendo (GRS). She has helped me
immensely.
After I purchased my Gravermax, purchased due to carpal tunnel
surgery, I took a class from a local goldsmith/engraver I have
known for many years. He engraves everything from jewellery in
silver, gold and platinum to guns and knives of various metals
including damascus steel.
I am sorry to disillusion you but if you are using Gravermax, you
are not an engraver. You are Gravermax operator. If that is the only
way you can do the work, than it is fine, but it is not an engraving.
I can create wonderful calligraphy using word processor and a
computer, but it is not a substitute for the real thing.
Engravers do not work with hammers and chisels. Metal carvers do.
Engravers do work with hammer and chisel such as Lynton McKenzie and
numerous Belgians who you ‘dissed’. There are other engravers who
choose other methods.
It’s possible to learn something even after we know it all.
Engravers do not work with hammers and chisels. Metal carvers do.
This is a moot point and really a matter of semantics. A friend who
happens to be a master engraver and earns his crust by engraving
high quality guns (see http://tinyurl.com/5rx2ko for an example),
uses three different techniques: hand power, Gravermax power, and
hammer power, according to requirements and toughness of the metal. In
his opinion, the distinction is determined by the amount (read
depth) of metal removed. Light relief being “engraving” and high
relief being “metal carving”. He cites the term “engraved tombstone”
as applied to the carved text on a headstone. This is clearly done
with a hammer and chisel, but is actually known as engraving.
Engravers do work with hammer and chisel such as Lynton McKenzie
and numerous Belgians who you 'dissed'. There are other engravers
who choose other methods.
I guess it is going to be one of those threads where “it depends
what Is is”. Here is my definition of engraving. It must be 2
dimensional (in practical sense, not mathematical). The perceived
depth is accomplished by varying width of the cut. Anything else is
something else. Gravers are very useful tools and used in many
techniques and that is probably where the source of confusion is.
People who do not know how a Gravermax/GraverMach or any other power
assisted engraving tool works, might get the impression that there
is a " create a scroll decorations-button" or a " create a
monogram-button" on the machine…
The comparison between computer calligraphy and a Gravermax is just
not fair. The power tool only makes the cutting action easier.You
still have to create the design, draw it on the metal, and then
using eye and hand coordination cut the pattern in the metal. The
Gravermax just don’t do the job by a push on a button. A job made with
the aid of a Gravermax is certainly an engraving to me.
Really, do we need to tell what is “the real thing” ? Why not just
discuss the different methods of engraving, hand pushing gravers,
hammer and chisel, and so on instead…
Per-ahrn, Sweden - learning how to operate/engrave with a GraverMach.
if you are using Gravermax, you are not an engraver. You are
Gravermax operator.
I really don’t think that’s very fair. Many jewellers who are using
Gravermax machines and the like were engravers beforehand and used
the traditional techniques for many years. They more than likely only
changed to using a Gravermax due to such injuries as carpal tunnel,
etc. If someone already has the skills and has been practicing for
years, then buys a machine that assists their skills, then they are
still an engraver. I think this attitude if snobbery for the sake of
snobbery.
I can create wonderful calligraphy using word processor and a
computer, but it is not a substitute for the real thing.
I don’t think this is a very good example. I’ve done proper
calligraphy for years and a computer and printer don’t come close to
real calligraphy - far from wonderful in my opinion and you can tell
the difference immediately. I’m sure that a good engraver’s work
with a Gravermax is indistinguishable from good engraving from
unassisted methods.
if you are using Gravermax, you are not an engraver. You are
Gravermax operator. If that is the only way you can do the work,
than it is fine, but it is not an engraving. I can create wonderful
calligraphy using word processor and a computer, but it is not a
substitute for the real thing.
Doing calligraphy on a computer is not the real thing. Using a
Gravermax is not remotely comparable to that, as the gravermax does
nothing to form the lines. It is more like saying that a stone
carver who uses an air tool instead of a hand chisel and mallet is
not really a stone carver.
I really think it behooves us all to be a bit more moderate in
expressing thoughts that cross the line from having an opinion to
being opinionated. It is not necessary to pronounce what really is,
after all, an opinion, as though it were an absolute dictum of
undeniable fact, no matter how strongly-held the opinion is.
if you are using a computer to create calligraphy then it is the
computer which is doing the creating and not you.
One wonders how in your opinion engraving is achieved, if it cannot
be done with hammer and chisel nor air assisted power nor even push
gravers (as they are commonly called in the trade). According to my
dictionary engraving is “incising (letters, designs etc.) on a hard
surface” and to my understanding all three processes can be used to
achieve this end. Upon meeting engravers who use these methods do you
contradict them and declare that they are in fact “metal carvers” or
“Gravermax operators” or even that they don’t use the push gravers
but in fact turn the work into the tool.
My last suggestion on this matter would be for you to continue to
create your wonderful calligraphy with your computer, which involves
no artistic imput from yourself, and let these creative engravers,
such as Sam Alfano, Steve Lindsay and hundreds of other great
craftsmen (and women), continue to cut their fine pieces no matter
what tools they use and recognize that their incising of metal
amounts to engraving.
I understand where you are coming from, but my body doesn’t allow me
the pleasure of beating it to death any longer. I’ve had to find a
substitute for silversmithing and beating the daylights out of my
silver to create vessels. As far as I know the use of the hydraulic
press is an acceptable form for raising metal. Since that standard
seems to hold, I see no reason why the GraverMach should be in
question.
As goldsmiths, metalsmiths, and silversmiths we need to be able to
find alternative methods to continue doing what we love to do. The
results help us to create the same beautiful stuff we’ve been
creating with the help of machinery.
Today in history we use torches and gas to be able to create our
work. Previously throughout history (and some still do) blow torches
(use of the mouth for the air) were used. Are you telling us that to
utilize a more modern convenient method is not acceptable? We have
lasers and welding machines out there that people are using instead
of soldering. It makes the work more solid and takes less time.
So, yes, I suppose that if you want to do “everything” by hand that
is okay. Do you use the blow torch (with your mouth for air) or do
you solder in the traditional method that is used today? How do you
polish your work? Do you use a buffing wheel with compounds on it?
Or do you polish by hand? How do you grind your gravers? Do you do
it manually with a file and sandpaper or do you use a grinding
wheel? How do you polish them?
In his opinion, the distinction is determined by the amount (read
depth) of metal removed. Light relief being "engraving" and high
relief being "metal carving".
I agree with you except that it is only the matter of semantics. Even
in carving there is a difference in technique depending if it is low
or high relief. Low relief carving approaching engraving in treating
depth, but there is still a distinction. In engraving the only
vehicle for expressing depth is the line. In light relief carving it
is the plane inclination and the strength of the shadow that are
employed.
Now that said, very often engravers do carving and carvers do
engraving. What I don’t get is that exaggerated reaction to a simple
distinction. As far as I know, there is no law mandating using “sir”
when addressing an engraver. The distinction is material, but it is
not diminishing skills required in carving.
Noel well said I am a sculptor and an artist and a metalsmith and a
cook and tools are TOOLS aids to complete a task. I have left my
gravers with raw shell and NOT ONE has carved me a cameo. Darn
stubborn tools!
If the tool is motorized it helps me in several ways at this point.
36 sterling pendants to polish after soldering. with sand papers and
old antique buffer 5 days
with new rotary flex tool and 3m discs 2 hours…stones set by hand
and necklaces assembled total time 6 hours (I have shaking so it
slows my assembly lol close one drop two method of attaching clasps
lol) but done by days end. Priced bagged and ready to go.
when I can afford it I will be getting an electric carver to rough
out designs on cameos. Just like the masters use over in Italy. I
have no apprentices to do slave labor so my time is most valuable and
should be left to only hand carving, but I must get the shell blanks
ready at the moment by hand. as in hand saw hand sand etc (I just got
the rotary tool this month so I have yet to apply it to cameo
processing) I will continue to use my hand engravers to finish the
cameos and detail,but eletricity can shorten time of production so I
will incorporate it where ever I can!