Guns and jewelers

Jewelry Discussion
41

This is a personal choice. If one chooses to have one on their
person open or concealed, under the counter, on the wall, under their
pillow, in the toilet tank or in the nightstand, it is their
business. Many if not most, pawn shops carry open. It is a deterrent
to bad guys and makes some customers feel safer. Many pawn shops have
more jewelry inventory than jewelry stores. They are not robbed very
often.

Should you decide to purchase a firearm, be trained in its use and
other weapons functions. Know the difference between a revolver or a
semi automatic. Know which ones can fire a round in the chamber even
after the magazine is released. Know how to load and fire in total
darkness. If you wear glasses be able to hit something without them.
Know the difference between pointing and aiming. Should you ever have
the need to use it, it will be when you least expect it as you will
have been cased at the store, followed home and hit between the car
and house, or a home invasion at 2-4 AM. The bad guys may know more
about your personal life than your neighbors do. Take courses
regarding function and safety. Know your local laws. It is a crime to
discharge a firearm within some cities. You may be charged for it
after. Crazy as it sounds, one store owner shot back at the robbers
and was charged with discharging a firearm in the city three years
ago here. Know your retreat laws and castle doctrine for your state.
Being correct does not always win in court unless it is beyond a
reasonable doubt.

Shooting at someone while they are turning may result in an entry
wound to their back (they swung at your wife with a baseball bat). In
court that is not self defense and you will most likely go to prison.
In prison now awaiting appeal to supreme court.

Now, take a course on the legal issues. Your trouble really begins
if you ever pull the trigger. Even as a warning shot. Did you carry
the weapon with a round in the chamber? Seven rounds or fifteen? You
do know some law enforcement carry no round in the chamber and the
weapon has to be drawn and chambered in one motion. On a legal
argument, it is another preventive step you have to think about
before you actually fire. You will have to explain to a jury why you
were or were not chambered. Did you use a stock over the counter
weapon or a highly customized Colt or Glock? Why? Was the factory
issue not good enough for your intent? Trigger pull is a huge legal
argument. Don’t touch it. Buy it correct the first time. I have
customized Colts but stock Sigs and HKs are my defensive choices.
Was the ammo stock or custom loaded? Was it meant for stopping or
killing? Can it go through a wall an injure someone in the next room
or store? Why? Reckless? Which sounds more pre-mediated to a jury,
a.44 Terminator or S&W .38 Pink Lady? The difference of 5-15 feet and
20-30 feet is maybe twenty years in prison. What can your jury be
convinced of and what might they question. (This will be the second
fight for your life.) Did you shoot to kill or stop? Three to center
mass shows you are an expert and intended to kill. Learn firing under
stress if someone will teach you.

Know what the first five words out of your mouth must be when law
enforcement shows up.

You cannot learn enough about safety and use. It is a huge
responsibility.

It is better to know and never need it.

42

I was in a liquor store in Miami Fla many years ago that had a trap
that could apply to someone here with a "brick and mortar"
establishment. There were two doors with a small vestibule between.

You could enter the vestibule from the street, but needed to be
"buzzed" through the door leading to the store. On leaving, one
could enter the vestibule from the store, but needed to be "buzzed"
to exit the vestibule to the street. Neither door could be opened if
the other was open. The sides of the vestibule were steel, and the
doors bullet- proof plastic.

There is also a jewelry store here in Memphis (name with held) where
many, but not all, of the clerks are armed. The armed ones have been
trained by one of the security training companies. There is also a
very large gentleman in the back of the store who is quite visible,
and heavily armed. They also have other security that is not quite
so visible.

There are several stores here whose clerks either carry, or have
quick access to a firearm. Others have no weapons at all. In short,
some of us are comfortable with firearms, and others not. To each
according to their own sensibilities. Each of us will develop some
degree of awareness, and what to do in a perceived problem
situation.

Just please, let’s not get into a slinging match about each other’s
opinions and actions.

43 
My father's classic Remington Model 12.22 pump is up in the attic,
there to stay.

If you really intend that it should never be used, turn it in to
your local police department.

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY

44 
Surely the attacker would be hit by some of the shot and think "Oh
I've been shot!" and may very well decide that what he was doing
was a bad idea and go away.

No. What you’ve done is make him angry, frightened and determined to
defend himself. And he won’t be using bird shot.

A course in self defense and firearms is not a big investment. Even
if you decide not to be armed, you’ll be educated.

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY

45

Several people have written about controlling exits with electrical
locks or equivalent. I have to ask - what does the fire inspector
think about that?

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY

46 
And if your state does have a "Castle doctrine" law, you may go to
prison for life if you shoot and kill a robber. Did you mean "does
not have"? BTW, the reference you linked lists states with "Stand
Your Ground Laws", not quite the same as defending

Yes, I meant “does not have”. Thanx for catching that.

“Castle Doctrine” is another name for “Stand Your Ground”. The
concept goes by lots of names:

Paf Dvorak

47 
And if your state does have a "Castle doctrine" law, you may go to
prison for life if you shoot and kill a robber. Paf. I think you
meant to say "does not" have Castle Doctrine law.....

Yes.

And some US states don’t have either. Not only can you be sued, you
can be imprisoned.

Best to know your states laws, both regarding in your home and in
your business before returning fire.

IMEO, being shot and killed is better than being imprisoned for
life.

Paf Dvorak

48 
It's probably best not to publicize that you don't have firearms
in the store, even on Orchid.

I don’t use my real name when posting to orchid.

I realize I might get business here (since I’m a to-the-trade shop)
but the risk isn’t worth the reward.

I know there are quite a few people signed up to this list, and the
vast majority never post, they just lurk.

How many of them aren’t jewelers? How many of them have alterer
motives in joining this list? Maybe none, but maybe some.

It’s a bad idea to post anything about your lack of security to any
online forum wherein you use your real

Paf Dvorak

49

Hi all

Another advantage of handgun-sized shotshells in the context of a
jewelry store is that if you do miss, by the time the shot exits
your store via your front window and makes it across the street,
it will be so spread out and will have lost so much power that
innocent pedestrians are unlikely to be harmed. Which would not be
the case if you fired off a slew of 9mm shells like you were on TV.

Just a couple of things. Not so hot on the pistol cal shotshells.
I’ve tried them. Imagine a small cloud of fast moving salt. Not going
to do much more than annoy someone hopped up on adrenaline.

If the gun comes out, it’s because someone is about to die. I’d just
as soon it not be me. Any other situation, and nobody will ever know
it was there. There’s no such thing as a warning shot.

I will share one useful link. Over penetration or blowthroughs are a
real problem in defensive situations. Miss your target, blow through
the wall, and kill random person 3 rooms away. Clearly, this is a
bad thing. At least in California, many of the LEO types have
switched to frangible ammo. It’s sintered copper. Designed to break
up when it hits anything solid. So it won’t go through wallboard
(much) and doesn’t carry far once it does hit anything. No ricochets
either. Does much more than “enough” if it hits a soft target.

The folks that make it are former clients of mine, and good people.
They’ve tweaked the round slightly for the civilian market.

It’s available here

That’s what I keep in my ready weapon.

Regards
Brian

50

Guns and the consequences of using one:

Look at insurance coverage, knowing which lawyer you will call, and
what to say to the police when they arrive!
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zz5
has some answers / suggestions, it is worth a look.

M Chapman

51

Dear Nick, you commented that most criminals could not shoot
straight. I beg to differ, with the modern video games, they have
found that in school shootings, the shooters have a huge success
rate, they shoot what they aim at and they do not waste ammo. Just
like the 9/11 pilots that had learned how to fly on video trainers, a
person with a gun does not need to go to a target range or practice
to be accurate. This is a really interesting posting, I have been on
the computer for over an hour and still have 15 pages of email to
read or delete, I am going to have to save the Gun & jewelers posting
for a time when I can read them all. I made the decision not to
advance in my gemstone collection and my trying to sell them because
of the attention it caused in an unfavorable element. I have 8 trays
of ebay junk, about 700 cheap stones, but people who are after bootie
do not know value, they do not know junk, they just see GEMSTONES>

PRECIOUS GEMS… I did not need to have diamonds, gold, silver or
valuable jewelry to catch the attention of potential thieves. Great
subject because this day and age everyone can be a target. I have a
friend that was robbed, they not only took her jewelry, but her small
dog and her husbands ashes. She was blessed to have to dog and the
ashes returned but all of but a few pieces of jewelry was found.
Blessings pat, where it rained last week at 40 above zero, and today
it is -32F below.

52

A very interesting thread, given what seems to be an increasing
prevalence of thefts before/during/after shows especially. I am
curious, for those like Jeffrey Jobe who are licensed to carry
concealed, how that works when you cross state lines?

I live in the South and got my first rifle patches at summer camp.
We got my daughter her first gun when she was five or six. We live
out in the country, and when my in-laws (who lived across the pond
from us) had their burglar alarm go off, the sheriff’s department
called us and said “we understand your husband is going over to
check it out”. I said yes. “Call us if you need us”. Click.

He went the next weekend and got a Glock with a laser sight to add
to our “collection” - since even if they DID decide to come, it will
take 30 minutes or more to get across the county to us! All our
“long guns” are stored in my studio, so I feel fairly well protected
there;)

I’ve been debating getting a concealed carry permit just for shows,
but wasn’t sure how that works when you cross into other states.

Anyone able to comment on that aspect?

Mostly I just try to look poor when I travel, and not like I have
jewelry :wink: Not hard to accomplish :slight_smile:

Beth Wicker
Three Cats and a Dog Design Studio

53 
To me not to train properly and regularly is not being responsible
and if you cannot find the time and money to do this training I
don't think you should be carrying a gun.

It sounds as if the woman in who was in the news lately for
shooting her home invasion assailant five times, had hardly ever
fired a gun before. While we don’t know what would have really
happened to her if she did not shoot him, we do know that he ran away
and left her alone. The “Armed Citizen” column that the pro-gun
advocates are always turning to, has a very high number of incidents
where either the gun is not fired or the defensive shooter fires and
misses. Are there similar enough stories of self-defense gun use that
goes terribly wrong that would support the notion that untrained use
of a gun is worse than no gun for defense in a very dire situation?
One can only agree that as with any tool, a gun is more effective
with practice and training and certainly safe handling and storage
are very important issues. But can it really be argued and supported
with real life self-defense statistics that the victims of violent
crimes are better off unarmed than doing the best they can with a
gun, even if they are not experts?

54

Here in NY interlock double doors are the norm for stone dealers and
manufacturing jewelers. Simple buzz-in doors for those retail shops
that have electrical locks.

55

Different states have differing statutes regarding out of state
weapons permits. You need to research the particular laws in the city
you’ll be going to.

An out of state carry permit is no good in New York City, for
instance.

56

So far all the discussion on this subject, with only a few
exceptions, has related to the US. I am curious about other
countries. There are jewelers on Orchid from all over the world. What
is the situation in Poland? India? Africa? South America? China?
Israel? I would imagine that in this world there exists everything
from no-guns-ever to heavily armed goons being a necessary part of
the business. Any observations?

57 
Here in the wild west of Colorado, we have the "Make My Day" law.

Is it really called the “Make My Day” lawe? That’s really scary :open_mouth:
CIA

58

Hi James,

If you are going to cary a gun get trained and stay proficient in
self defense shooting not just standard target range shooting.

I saw a man being arrested the other day on national television, I
will get to the point bear with me. The Police acted very
professionally, and handled the situation.

The gentleman concerned was on the run, he apparently had an
argument with a friend and shot him dead, something which is very
unusual in Australia.

The Police found then man making a call on a public phone box, what
raised suspicion was that we was wearing a scarf on a stinking hot
day (the man has a very distinctive tattoo on his neck), and the
Policeman recognised him. They closed off an area around the man so
that the public would be safe.

They drew their guns, as they were unsure if he was armed, when they
determined that he wasn’t they put away their guns and drew their
tasers.

That the point that I was getting at, would tasers be a better
solution than guns in a jewellery store, of course with adequate
training, less chance of a fatality?

Regards Charles A.

59 
"Castle Doctrine" is another name for "Stand Your Ground".

No. Castle Doctrine means an individual has no duty to retreat when
in his or her home, or “castle,” and may use reasonable force,
including deadly force, to defend his or her property, person, or
another. Some states extend this to your car or place of work.
Forty-six states have Castle Doctrine Laws.

Stand Your Ground extends this to situations outside your home, when
there is reasonable belief of a threat. Twenty states have Stand
Your Ground laws.

Al Balmer
Pine City, NY

60

Darn. I wasn’t going to weigh in on this topic. However I feel
compelled to note that even the people mentioned above, when ‘under
the gun’, often see all their training evaporate. You can find
examples on YouTube. And, on the other hand, people with minimal
training or no training whatsoever have successfully defended
themselves with a firearm on many, many occasions.

I think a proper mindset is actually the determining factor. You
must decide ahead of time if you are willing to defend you and yours
with a weapon, or if you are not.

If you decide to have the option to defend yourself, you should be
competent with your chosen firearm. Experts will often recommend a
revolver as something you can safely carry and deploy (when and if
it is ever needed) with minimal training: no safeties or magazines to
futz with.

But please get some basic training, both in the use of your firearm
and in the legal ramifications of using it. There are many factors
you will need to consider ahead of time. chief among them is this: if
I pull the trigger, where will the bullet go? Last year, I believe,
NYC police (as well trained as any, I assume) got in a shootout on a
city street. They shot several bystanders along with the bad guy. I
can picture many scenarios in a store where, even if you are
carrying, you should not deploy your weapon. It is there not to
protect property, but to protect human life.

I have carry permits in two states. Here is the convention taught in
both states: If you pull and shoot, it is going to cost you a
minimum of $10,000.00 in legal fees, even if you are found to be in
the right.

And that’s without actually hitting anybody.

One other thing, just because your state might not have a Castle
Doctrine doesn’t mean you cannot defend yourself. The duty to
retreat usually means, basically, you have to go to every length to
avoid shooting (you must choose to retreat). Once you can’t retreat
any farther you can legally defend yourself. Check your own local
laws on this very important factor.

Good luck with whatever choice you have made or will make.