the floor was hinged with an electronic release that dumped you into a secure locked closet in the basement to be collected by the police at their leisure.
Absolutely awesome, I want one 
CIA
Totally agree with you. Better to surrender the goods than die over
a piece of metal or a stone.
And if your state does have a "Castle doctrine" law, you may go to prison for life if you shoot and kill a robber.
Did you mean ādoes not haveā? BTW, the reference you linked lists
states with āStand Your Ground Lawsā, not quite the same as defending
your castle.
Al Balmer
Pine City, NY
Hi Alonzo,
So, if the robber can't get out. what happens next?
A buzzer entry can be a deterrent, the main thing about robbers is
that they donāt want to get caught, so they will pick an easier
target over a very secure target. Thatās what happens here in
Australia.
They are questioned before they are buzzed in and have to be let out.
While they are in the store, their image is recorded, and if
necessary silent alarms are tripped.
Regards Charles A.
Hi Nick,
Criminals prefer weak targets and have some sense of self preservation. [snip] So, having carried a gun for my country and as a hobby I would like to be offered a choice to do so if I needed to for other reasons.
I concur criminals are lazy, or more correctly will only expend a
great deal of effort if there is a great payoff (like digging into a
bank vault).
Criminals will go for a weak target or an insecure target over a
target that is protected or secure.
Iād have no problems with trained individuals carrying weapons, itās
the people that pick up a weapon and donāt have a clue that may be a
problem.
In a jewellery store thereās more to be concerned with than just the
robber. Clients in the store are the store owners responsibility,
and anything that happens to the client whilst they are on your
premises is the responsibility of the owner. According to the laws in
Australia. I think litigation in America is more savage than it is
here in Oz.
Regards Charles A.
ok, ok,
iāll work on my writing skills. the informality of email may have
reduced my ability. My wife pokes fun at me enough that i should
have figured it all out by now.
iāll have to admit that I am surprised by the calm and intelligent
response from my rather risky post. This is a very difficult thing
here since I am in Connecticut, and the rights i have enjoyed for 16
years now are really under fire.
We have to watch our backs, a meth head doesnāt know if we have a
million dollars in cash in the safe or two dollars. A trained gang
knows what they are doing and we have very little defense against
practiced thieves with the skill of those that come after us. I like
the mention of the halo effect. In a way we are protected by the
perceived beliefs that mom and pop are armed. This is the best
protection. āPower perceived, is power achievedā
In the end this is a personal decision. i can respect the thought of
an insurance only route, though I do not choose that. Guns are a
very uncomfortable tool in the shop and in most cases "duck and run"
is the right choice to make. Guns can give a false sense of security
to some, but those using them for bad are also under the influence of
a false sense of empowerment. I guess my point was really about
responsibility, all of us should have procedures in place. if you
are going to be āgun freeā practice what to do when something bad
happens. If you support the use of firearms than really support it
with training. We all benefit from the āhalo effectā so we can enjoy
making jewelry with out too much worry.
Weapons and jewelry have a wonderful history. From sword parts to
gun parts, daggers and armor, We jewelers have played a part in
decorating the tools that are used to defend us from bad. I am glad
to hear that not all of us are on the āwe donāt need to defend
ourselvesā side. I for one am proud that i can, Hand engrave, handle
all gem setting, i am versed in various metal working techniques,
watch making, and i can also put 5 rounds through 3 inches at 15
feet in much less than 10 seconds. but there is always room to be
better. here is to hoping we all get a chance to continue a long and
prosperous career, uninterrupted by tragedy.
Brian, AKA pinky and the brain
Good comment. I do not own a gun anymore and have not sense I got
out of the military 42 years ago. I do worry a bit but do know that
if in a situation I might not make the best decision with a gun. I do
carry a knife for emergency situations. Always good for removing
splinters and helping to keep the honest people honest. nothing can
keep you safe from someone who wants to be bad. just the facts.
Itās probably best not to publicize that you donāt have firearms in
the store, even on Orchid.
Al Balmer
Pine City, NY
speaking of gunsā¦
enjoy
Pallavi
And if your state does have a "Castle doctrine" law, you may go to prison for life if you shoot and kill a robber.
Patā¦ I think you meant to say ādoes notā have Castle Doctrine
lawā¦
The Stand Your Ground laws, are a tad different, too, though details
varyā¦
Castle Doctrine, essentially isā¦ A personās home is their
castleā¦ If someone breaks in, you have the right to defend
yourself, using lethal force, if necessaryā¦
Furthermore, in that scenario, you are immune from civil lawsuit,
should the bereaved of the perpetrator, wish to sue you in civil
courtā¦
I knowā¦It sounds silly in the light of day, but folks have been
successfully sued for damages suffered by the person that initiated
a break in/robberyā¦
Here in WI, we just recently passed Castle Doctrineā¦And yes,
there are folks opposed to the conceptā¦As a license to kill, or
some other such objectionā¦
My comment to one and all of the objectorsā¦
Heyā¦Donāt be breaking into other folks homes, or places of
businessā¦ End of problem, if you modify your behavior, rightā¦
Or you will get shot, and itās sad about the life you hadā¦ Butā¦
Why do I sound a tad bloodthirsty. I have no problem, running away
from a nasty situationā¦ Have done so, a number of times in the
pastā¦
Seeā¦ since the Stroke, 5 years agoā¦I can no longer runā¦
Gary W. Bourbonais
LāHermite Aromatique
A. J.P. (GIA)
My favorite form of protection is a door buzzer (electronic lock) that prevents a person from leaving without being buzzed out. So, if the robber can't get out. what happens next?
If heās already shot you heāll not victimize anyone else on this
side of the wall.
If youāre not shot maybe he eventually does get out but if you have
a silent alarm and itās a few more minutes for the cops to show up.
Of course a backlit perp is an easy target if the shopkeeper has a
gun of his own.
Paf Dvorak
Hi
If the crooks think you are armed they will shoot first. Or worse.
I always think of worst case scenarios. Better safe than dead.
Your gun is no good if they throw in a percussion grenade. While you
are stunned and deafened.
They will empty your store. Steal your guns and shoot you.
Double security doors are good. Buzzed through first door, photo ID
slid through bullet proof glass.
If valid buzzed through second door. Works for my gem dealer.
If the worst happens they can get out through second door (exit from
shop) and are then trapped in a bullet proof room.
Me I carry little stock and make to order. You donāt get in my show
room without an appointment.
I always meet new clients first off premises, local coffee shop or
they come by referral.
But hey I am small time and always have a ring mandrel handy and
know how to use it and I donāt mean for rings. I keep my stock out of
the show room and have 2 dogs that will attack on command.
If you do carry a gun you better know how to use it and use rat shot
first round and then hollow points and shoot to kill. First shot aim
for the centre of the chest. This is the rat shot and will slow most
people down. If they keep coming second shot to the head. Why? Heard
of kevlar vests? Anything less is stupid. If they are on PCP they
will keep coming so keep shooting.
But you better see their weapon first. Or you may have just killed
an idiot and that is murder. The old military proviso of " if you
think you have killed them make sure and shoot them again."
Wounded people can still shoot.
Unless you have been under fire the chances of you hitting anyone
are very very small. The adrenaline dump will make you shake and
miss.
Targets on a range are not armed aggressors.
I would think the last thing you need is a gun in your shop. While
traveling worth serious thought.
This is the nasty reality we live in and we are all the worse for
it.
As Daria says " Itās a sick sad world."
I sincerely hope none of us are ever in this situation.
Richard.
I agree with James Binnionās post on this topic, but Iām going to
add a modifier that most people may not be aware of.
I read a āthinking outside of the boxā article once that pointed out
that revolvers, unlike pistols, can be loaded with mixed ammunition.
Further, the first one, or two, or three cartridges can be small
shotshells. Handgun shotshell shot is about the size of the white
sugar beads on nonpareil candy or the beads in Contac cold capsules
(quite small) but there are lots of them. Very roughly, you can
expect the shot pattern to spread an inch a foot, so at 15 feet the
shot would spread (thinly) to cover something like a 15 inch circle.
If you canāt hit an attacker with a 15 inch shot pattern you
shouldnāt be shooting at all. Surely the attacker would be hit by
some of the shot and think āOh Iāve been shot!ā and may very well
decide that what he was doing was a bad idea and go away. You can
still have ārealā bullets for the rest of your shots if the guy is
determined, though.
Another advantage of handgun-sized shotshells in the context of a
jewelry store is that if you do miss, by the time the shot exits
your store via your front window and makes it across the street, it
will be so spread out and will have lost so much power that innocent
pedestrians are unlikely to be harmed. Which would not be the case if
you fired off a slew of 9mm shells like you were on TV.
I canāt imagine actually shooting someone, but I do have concerns
about pit bulls in my area (the 4-legged kind) so I do have a .44
Special revolver with 2 shot shells in it, with the rest being solid
bullets. Peopleās dogs do not have the right to maul me or my family
and Iām not going to fight a pit bull or two on their terms.
This is not advice for anyone. It is you might discuss
with someone you consider an expert if you do want to have a handgun.
Nothing is going to work in every circumstance. Not being armed. Not
being disarmed.
Be lucky.
Neil A.
My favorite form of protection is a door buzzer
My favorite is the security camera. It is a great deterrent because
it makes it so much harder to get away with the crime.
Regarding guns or not: It is perfectly OK to discuss it on a forum
like this, but when it comes to what you say to your customers,
strangers or to the public in general it is best to keep it to
yourself. Declaring your premises gun-free might be satisfying if you
are into moral preening, but it isnāt going to make you safer. You
wouldnāt declare that you donāt have a safe, an alarm system or
security cameras. Likewise going all-out pro-gun and behaving like
you have a chip on your shoulder makes you look like a nut. That
canāt be good for business. You never know where the threshold is
that is going to be offensive to someone who is vehemently anti-gun.
So unless you are more committed to being a 2nd amendment advocate
than you are to selling jewelry, keep it a secret.
Having a gun in the shop is just about useless ā unless you have
the proper training. By proper training I am not talking about just a
CCW. You must learn how to use your gun of choice. That will require
practice time. When I get a new gun, I shoot 100 or 200 rounds, just
to get familiar with the weapon. You would also need additional
training on reacting during a confrontational situation. Without
proper training, your gun can get you killed.
āThingsā can be replaced, your life canāt. ā¦Teddy
And if your state does have a "Castle doctrine" law, you may go to prison for life if you shoot and kill a robber.
Good point. Here is the wild west of Colorado, we have the āMake My
Dayā law which allows a person to use deadly force if someone enters
their place of residence and the resident feels threatened. It
doesnāt apply to commercial businesses. There currently is a bill in
the Colorado State House to make the Make My Day law cover
commercial businesses.
Rick Copeland
Colorado
If one is going to cary a concealed weapon or keep weapons at hand in the shop you are saying you are ready to exert deadly force. To me not to train properly and regularly is not being responsible and if you cannot find the time and money to do this training I don't think you should be carrying a gun.
Well, I have my own opinions too, but I thank Hanuman for limiting
this thread to ārealā thoughts and no rhetoric. I have two thoughts,
though:
First off - anybody who wants to be armed at work - have you ever
shot and killed ~anything~? Deer, rabbit, quail, bigger and more
intellegent? Many will answer yes - I can - but if your answer is no
then you might think more deeply about how effective you might be,
as Jim points out. Itās not target shooting.
Second, maybe ten years ago some guy kidnapped his wife, drove a
bit, and then beat her to death standing by the side of a busy road.
The question was asked, āMaybe 50 people drove by, watching this guy
beat his wife to death right in front of them, why did nobody stop to
help?ā A police officer said, in the media, that people just donāt
know how. Itās not that they arenāt brave, itās that they just donāt
have the training andoverall ability to walk into that sort of
situation and know what to do. Helplessness, basically. Think about
it. Having a gun is one thing. Pulling it out and pointing it at
someone is quite another. Add in the fact that you turn yourself
into a target to be shot AT whenyou do that, and it gets real serious
real fast. My fatherās classic Remington Model 12.22 pump is up in
the attic, there to stay.
I'd like to hear what other shopkeepers do regarding electronic locks.
Another great topic. We have a magnetic door lock that can only be
opened with a remote button (itās really a garage door remote and
everyone in the store has one) or by two strategically located
switches. The purpose of the lock is to impede shoplifting and āsmash
and grabsā. It works. It isnāt to prevent anyone from coming in, itās
to stop people from grabbing stuff and running. They donāt even try
if they know they have to wait for the buzzer to get out.
Just for what itās worth, this type of lock is not allowed under
many zoning laws. Many jurisdictions absolutely prohibit having the
ability to prevent someone, anyone from leaving by the way they came
in. Check your local zoning ordinances before investing in one of
these things.
I have had numerous discussions with my trainers and law enforcement
friends about what to do with the door lock in the case of an armed
robbery. The general consensus is that if someone is armed, we unlock
the door and tell them it is unlocked, they will not be hindered in
any way in their escape.
The whole purpose and intent of the training we do here at my store
is preventive in nature and is designed to avoid ever having to use
or even display a firearm. We have a multi-level system consisting of
video surveillance both inside and outside with both visible and
hidden cameras and DVRs, hold-up buttons, code words, and most
importantly prior knowledge of what is expected of everyone. We have
a plan, several in fact. We practice them. Iāll not get into more
details about it, but you can find out about making your own plan by
talking to your local cops. They will have good advice concerning
your security whether you decide to have firearms around or not.
A point about getting a concealed carry permit. Just having a permit
doesnāt mean that you have been properly or adequately trained. You
havenāt been. There are three parts to the course in most states,
training, the firing range and the background check. The training is
mainly about the law, not in how to handle a firearm. In fact the
only part of it that really involves shooting is just to make sure
the applicant can actually hit a target on a firing range. There is
no training on how to carry, how to move, how to avoid conflict,
ballistics or anything else of that nature. The third part of it, the
most important part imho, is the background check. I kind of like to
have that background check on my employees, so I encourage everyone
to get a permit whether they want to carry or not. Having everyone up
to speed on the law is a good thing too.
Thanks to everyone for keeping this discussion civil and on an adult
level.
Dave Phelps
If you are going to carry/have gun within reach you must realize
that it means you must be ready to kill someone if you ever point it
at them, if you are not ok with that then you should probably not
have a gun within reach. Loading it with a round or two of rat shot
is a bad idea because if you ever need to fire the weapon you should
be aiming to kill. Discharging a weapon to scare someone or trying
to wound them is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. If you are in fear
for your life and you chose to use a gun to resolve that situation
then you should shoot to kill, that is the whole point of having the
gun. If you just try to scare someone off with it they are very
likely to attack you with whatever they have in the way of a weapon
because you are now threatening them with deadly force and if they
get to you they are likely going to kill you. It is not the movies
or TV where the hero scares off the bad guy just by firing a round
or two or incapacitates them by wounding.
If you are going to cary a gun get trained and stay proficient in
self defense shooting not just standard target range shooting.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
I'm interested in how a person with experience, such as yourself, would think how a firefight would go in a jewellery store.
No matter what the outcome is it would be a bad day in the shop.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts