Good sapphires set in silver

Jewelry Discussion
21 
Look at bridal jewellery - which is what we're talking about - and
I don't mean engagement and wedding rings.

Oh I see the confusion now. We’d have to ask the lady who originally
posted the question, but if I recall, she was talking about the
bride’s necklace and the bridesmaids necklaces/pendants.

When I married my second husband in summer 2003, we had to fund
everything ourselves. My husband had proposed the year before and
bought me the diamond engagement ring and we both had plain gold
wedding bands for our wedding rings. At the time it was more
important to me to have the dream wedding dress as I’d not been able
to do that the first time around, so I spent a fortune and bought a
designer (Maggie Sotterro) wedding gown. My jewellery for the day I
bought from a department store bridal department and it was a
necklace and earring set which was as you say costume jewellery -
plated base metal and faux pearls. Very pretty but also quite
expensive.

However, if I was doing it all over again, I would much prefer a
jewellery suite made of sterling silver with “nice” blue (perhaps
lab) sapphires and CZ that I could wear again, than a cheaply made
suite of costume jewellery with a “bridal” inflated price tag.

And that’s what I’m talking about. But as to setting sapphires in
silver, I have designed a necklace and earrings set for myself which
I shall make soon and I’ve bought some gorgeous lab sapphires (lab
corundum) which are my favourite blue colour and also some lab
tanzanites (I think they’re just CZ) which have just the right
violet/ blue colour of good tanzanite and some very well cut
colourless CZ’s. I’m really looking forward to making and wearing it
and it will be for nights out/parties, etc. When it’s done it will be
very pretty and if it was to be on sale in a jeweller’s window on the
highstreet, it would more than likely fetch hundreds of UKP and
people do buy jewellery like that. At the moment in the UK, silver
jewellery seems to be very popular - in fact people are even spending
a lot of money on costume jewellery. Maybe it’s different in the
States, I don’t know.

But it goes back to how one defines a 'good' sapphire. Is it good
because its mined blue corundum or is it good because it has
saturated color with minimal zoning face up and overall looks
lively?

Again, we’d have to ask the original poster.

Helen
UK

22 
I can't imagine why sapphires wouldn't look absolutely stunning in
silver filigree!

Precisely Lisa, thank you. The nicest pieces of jewellery I’ve made
have been sapphires and rubies (separate pieces) in silver. I think
such necklaces for a wedding would look stunning too.

Helen
UK

23 
Of course then someone would have to define "good".

Untreated in any way, clear to very slightly included, well cut,
medium tone, purplish-blue to blue, saturation 4 to 5 on GIA scale.

Leonid Surpin.

24 
At least not natural ones; some of the lovely man-made ones are
utterly gorgeous in silver, and the results can be both elegant and
affordable.

If one considers how much “cooking” so called “natural” sapphires
are subjected too, the lab-grown corundum is far superior choice.

As far as using silver and precious gemstones together,
aesthetically it is better choice than white gold. Tarnishing is more
of a perceived problem than real, and only becomes a real problem if
silver is mishandled.

Imputed value of the metal may affect some customers purchasing
decision, but that is a different subject. Commercial considerations
always clashing with aesthetic. This conflict is as old as
civilization itself.

Leonid Surpin.

25

I think silver is getting the respect it deserves due to price. I
used to think because I didn’t work in gold that I didn’t get the
respect goldsmiths do, it’s one thing to say you are a silver smith
and another to say you are a gold smith, at least in the public’s
eye. I can see the low end of silver getting the beating it deserves
too. Silver is too expensive to make crap jewelry out of anymore.

I would be happy to put any stone in Argentium sterling as the
tarnish won’t show up under the stone. I have been waiting for
Argentium for a long time, I have lots of stones I wanted to put in
white but wasn’t going to put in nickle gold alloys due to the bitch
factor of working that alloy. I love palladium white but not at these
prices, thank God for Argentium.

Sam Patania, Tucson
www.silverhuntress.com

26 
Untreated in any way, clear to very slightly included, well cut,
medium tone, purplish-blue to blue, saturation 4 to 5 on GIA
scale.

Sorry, Leonid, I have to disagree here. I have both heated and
unheated sapphires in my stock, all of them far better than good.
Untreated is not the critical thing here. The rest of what you state
is fine.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambrige, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

27

BTW, to the person who said" I don’t understand why one would set
good sapphires in disposable costume jewelry in the first place." I
think it was Neilthejeweler. You’ve not really understood what I was
saying.

I wasn’t saying set sapphires in disposable costume jewellery, I was
saying instead of buying disposable costume jewellery, setting
"nice" sapphires in silver would be a MUCH nicer piece of jewellery
to wear on your wedding day.

And thanks to all who posted today who also agree that there’s
absolutely no reason why you can’t or shouldn’t set sapphires in
silver.

Helen
UK

28 
If one considers how much "cooking" so called "natural" sapphires
are subjected too, the lab-grown corundum is far superior choice.

I resisted lab made gems for a long while and bought natural
sapphires, but eventually I decided to try some lab made corundum
and was VERY impressed. I have some very beautiful lab sapphires that
I am very happy to wear.

As far as using silver and precious gemstones together,
aesthetically it is better choice than white gold.

I agree. I love silver’s warmth and I’m not a fan of white gold,
especially since the rhodium plating has worn off a favourite ruby
ring I have and now it looks horrible. You can clean silver if it
tarnishes but it would cost me a lot to have my ring rhodium plated -
i don’t do any plating. Also, silver is 50 times cheaper than gold at
the moment so that too makes silver more attractive in my book!

Helen
UK

29

I’ve been reluctant to post on this thread mostly because it makes no
difference to me if someone wants to set diamonds in brass, though I
would think you were nuts ;} I do think there are a couple of
objective factors at work as to why some stones are traditionally set
in gold or more recently platinum, though. Both are relating to
engineering… As has been said, silver is much, much softer. First
off, that means that one will have to make prongs twice as big to get
the same strength as white gold. That’s fine if you like big fat
prongs… Or make concessions because of the material, like it MUST
be bezel set, which is unacceptable to most. Also silver can never be
worked to the level of detail and crispness that gold can be - silver
is balsa wood, gold is mahogany. Even if one gets silver to a level
of detail, polishing it for just an instant will take it all away, as
will wear. When someone (historically) sets a $1000 or more stone,
they generally have expectations of craftsmanship, quality and
longevity, and silver is just not the right choice for those
qualities. It’s not snobbery, it’s just not the right choice - you
wouldn’t make a bridge out of bronze… Personally, again, it means
nothing to me if anyone wants to do it, I’m just trying to figure out
why the world has this tradition. Helen has been talking about doing
it with much satisfaction, which is great. You have to ask the
question of would a customer be quite so happy if the sapphire was 3
carats, $15,000, and set in a ring with prongs and diamonds, though.
Everything is relative…

http://www.donivanandmaggiora.com

30

I think most of the good points have been made. However, it’s
interesting to remember that a while back (before any of us were
around) precious stones were set in aluminum! Of course airplanes
were then invented, the World Wars came and went, and the rarity of
aluminum disappeared–along with any interest in setting precious
stones in it.

Relative value had struck!

Dr. Mac

31 
I have to disagree here. I have both heated and unheated sapphires
in my stock, all of them far better than good

Untreated was used as a criterium in the context of natural versus
lab- grown. I simply was pointing out illogic of accepting treated
corundum as a gem, but objecting to use of lab-grown.

If we take a purist point of view, than the only acceptable corundum
is untreated. if we relax our requirements, than lab-grown is more
logical choice or at least on the par with treated.

My personal view as a designer, I am looking for a spot of color on
either white of yellow background, the rest is up to a client,
whatever her budget can take.

Leonid Surpin.

32 
Also silver can never be worked to the level of detail and
crispness that gold can be - silver is balsa wood, gold is mahogany.
Even if one gets silver to a level of detail, polishing it for just
an instant will take it all away, as will wear.

You have got to be kidding!

In the face of overwhelming evidence of thousands of artifacts made
in silver and surviving hundreds years of use, with the most
exquisite
detailing, a statement like that make one wonder.

Is that one of those when you type something, hit enter, and only
than think about it ?

Leonid Surpin.

33

I have no problem with the idea of setting sapphires in silver or
copper. I’ve set diamonds in Silver too (and I’m going to set one in
copper to be irreverent!)

As already mentioned, some people are opposed to Gold and Platinum.
They just do not like these metals. For some of these people Silver
is the choice and $3000 in diamond isn’t a problem. After all, a
$3000 diamond is never set in $3000 worth of gold. The perceived
value of the metal isn’t the issue. If it were, diamonds would never
be set in steel and rubber, but we all know it happens.

Now I would like to address another issue brought up in this topic:
Daniel R. Spirer wrote

It (silver) tarnishes. When the background behind a stone (or
surrounding a stone) turns black, there is quite simply no way that
stone will ever look right and fulfill its goal to be a beautiful,
sparkling gemstone. If you have ever set a transparent cabochon in
a silver setting and seen it come back a few years later looking
not like the beautiful gem it once was, but like some dark, icky
thing because the entire background has discolored, you'd
understand this."

It’s always been good practice to cut the backs out of settings for
stones that are transparent or translucent to avoid these problems
and to allow light to come from behind. Only opaque cabochons should
have solid backs IMHO. And I’ve had requests of late to cut the
backs out on opaque cab settings to allow skin contact as an aid to
possible metaphysical functions.

TL Goodwin

34 
It's always been good practice to cut the backs out of settings
for stones that are transparent or translucent to avoid these
problems and to allow light to come from behind.

Take a faceted stone and set it in a bezel. To do it properly there
needs to be a seat. The seat is under the girdle of the stone. There
is no way to get to the seat (under the girdle) to polish it without
removing the stone. Hence you get a darkness in the metal behind the
entire edge of the stone. And you don’t think this impacts the way it
looks? Even if you do a prong setting in silver, the same thing
happens. Where the seat is, it’s impossible to clean properly. And
even if you do leave a bezel open and YOU know to go in and clean
around the inside of the setting (to at least help it a little), I
guarantee you that not one in one hundred customers will know that.
So if you want to remove every stone every time you polish a piece
because it was set in silver, more power to you. But you better be
charging a lot for all of that extra work.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambrige, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

35 
You have got to be kidding! In the face of overwhelming evidence of
thousands of artifacts made in silver and surviving hundreds years
of use, with the most exquisite detailing

No, I’m not kidding. It’s the truth, plain and simple. I’m a
goldsmith. I and my collegues can work gold far beyond what the
workability of silver permits. It doesn’t matter how many old pieces
are around. Gold is the most malleable metal by definition. I don’t
know the numbers of how much stronger gold is, plus it depends on the
alloy, but it’s at least double - white gold is more like triple.
These are simple facts. The notion that somehow silver is “just the
same” as gold because the properties are similar is a falsehood that
is perpetuated in jewelry schools, mostly by people who haven’t
actually worked that much gold. They are quite different, and I’ll
say it again: The properties of silver do not permit it to be worked
to the level of detail that gold permits. It is a simple fact. For
the casual user it may not be apparent. When one pushes the limits of
the metals, it is obvious and real. Not guessing, not looking in
books, 1000’s of ounces of both under my belt. Plus it is materials
science. Obvious and real. And true.

36

(the word ‘you’ is used generically here)

Setting valuable saphs(or anything for that matter) in silver, daily
wear jewelry is like writing a sub-prime mortgage (we see what’s
going on there). If you hold the mortgage(you service what you sell)
you very well may have to deal with the consequences. They’ve been
listed here, dispute it if one likes but the many years of actual
experience have led these professionals to those observations.

We still haven’t defined what a ‘good sapphire’ is. Look on a
wholesale list and you’ll see ‘good’ one caraters around the $500
mark per carat. Larger stones accordingly more. 1ct Saphs will go to
around 2500/ct so pick where you think ‘good’ actually is. At any
rate the customer has paid the jeweler pretty decent money for
something they will have (perhaps unspoken) expectations about. They
expect it to last and look good later on. If you can build it so it
does last and you solve the tarnish problem, yay for you, you’ll
carve yourself a nice niche.

I, for one, really hate comebacks. They are poison to my business.
Worse than the momentary egg on face, they have a negative impact on
my reputation. And all, I put it to you that your reputation is
absolutely everything. More important than your technical skill, more
than your designs, more than the applause of your peers, more than
your self-perception. Remember, you reputation is what the public
thinks of you, not what you think they think.

Its not impossible for your customer to ask some other jeweler what
he/she thinks of the piece you made. If it gets pooh-poohed you may
never see that customer again and maybe that customer’s friends too.
Ask that person why they are unhappy now and it might be something
like, “I thought I was buying something good”. In the event of a
problem and IF you get the chance, you may have to justify your
reasoning in material or technique, face to face.

But I’ll freely admit, since my livelihood depends on the choices I
make in creating jewelry and I cultivate long term relationships, I
have a vested interest in addressing the best interests of my
clients. But that’s just me.

All of which is not to lay down some edict that you can’t do
something. But there are probable outcomes to everything you do. If
you are in it for the long term you need to consider them. If you
make jewelry strictly for your own pleasure, then you enjoy a freedom
some of us here can’t afford.

Anyway, that’s my reasoning.

37

Helen, NOBODY is telling you that you shouldn’t set a $10, $20, or
even $50 sapphire into sterling silver. When they are referring to
"good" sapphires, they are talking about
multiple-hundred-or-thousand-dollar stones, not something to set into
a piece of jewelry meant to be one step above fashion jewelry. Just
out of curiosity, what type of retail price would you set on a
completed hand-made sapphire-and-sterling bridal necklace? How about
if a bride needed 6 identical pieces? And what do the "bridal shops"
charge for a similar piece made from glass and base metal?

Lee Cornelius
Vegas Jewelers

38

I and my collegues can work gold far beyond what the workability of
silver permits. The properties of silver do not permit it to be
worked to the level of detail that gold permits.

That is quite amazing, Mr Donivan. Are there any pictures or links
you could point me to to witness this phenomena?

Hans Meevis

39 
It's always been good practice to cut the backs out of settings for
stones that are transparent or translucent to avoid these problems
and to allow light to come from behind.

Light does not come from behind a faceted gemstone. Think of it as
light coming in from the top bounces off the pavillion facets back
up through the top.

So do we think light goes up from the bottom and instead of bouncing
off the crown facets and going down, on the way up it magically
follows another principle? Gems faceted with the pavillion at the
correct angle for the refractive index refract and reflect light in
relationship to how that specific gem returns light to the observer.

Some gems tend to be darker, like some garnets, than amethyst topaz,
or tourmaline that are not dark on the c axis. My wife pointed out
that settings that are open in the back when used for dangle earrings
can have light behind them and a dark gem can look better when you
can see through them.

When I tube set diamonds or colored gems in rings, the gem looks the
same in the tube setting, or a prong setting provided the gem is
properly cut with the pavillion angle correct for the gems refractive
index. This is assuming the gems do not have internal flaws that
prevent light from following the principles of refraction. Flaws and
inclusions break up light that enters a gem and that causes those
gems to look hazy.

Some translucent or transparent cabs look better with open backs, but
when worn, they won’t look the same as when you have nothing against
the back. When buying gems, put them against a backround similar to
how they will be set. You will not be disappointed after it is set.
Been there done that, and not just once or twice. I was determined to
make a silk purse…

Richard Hart

40 
Are there any pictures or links you could point me to to witness
this phenomena?

Happy to oblige, Hans—

http://tinyurl.com/2dxqdp

Blow up the image–can’t look inside, unfortunately. One of my
formative books…

http://tinyurl.com/2cj6w8

I would point out both birds, the vanity case, and the winter
landscape

http://www.victoriansociety.org/vssftea2006.htm
http://tinyurl.com/yph7l8
http://tinyurl.com/29umb5

Sorry, that one’s platinum… Click on the link above - “Kathryn’s
Public gallery”, too.

http://tinyurl.com/yugbrq

Also, Watski’s collection is always a joy to see:
http://www.wartski.com/body.htm

There’s a Van Cleef brooch and a peacock that are particularly
choice.

Now, I could go on and on. The point being (why it even needs to be
said, I don’t know) is that none of the pieces above are possible in
silver - they cannot be made in that material. “A” brooch, of
course. THAT Van Cleef brooch? No, it cannot be done. Silver is not
gold, gold is gold.

That is quite amazing, Mr Donivan. Are there any pictures or links
you could point me to to witness this phenomena?

I already sent one reply to this, but one more that is a perfect
example and also an extraordinary piece is:

http://tinyurl.com/263rub

Which piece is simply not possible to make in silver (much more too
see on that site, too, and they update frequently). I also noticed
at lunch that this month’s cover of JCK has a great example - yes, a
caricature of it could be done - the actual piece, no. I’ll stop,
but it’s just so obvious if one gets out there. Still not sure why
it needs to be said…

Ok, one more. I’m not obsessive, it’s just that every time I go to
Phillips I browse the site. Plus it’s verrrrrrrrry important that
people who want to make jewelry or other stuff understand. Try this
page and click on anything:

http://tinyurl.com/2x4tft

That is the silver boxes page, if the link doesn’t work. I’d suggest
#13923, which is a very fine box. Go ahead and zoom in, take a good
look. Go to the corners and the details and see where they pushed
the limits of the metal, and how “smurfy” it looks down deep
(comparatively). Now go to:

http://tinyurl.com/yuypd9

And pick any box. That’s Louis V boxes if the link doesn’t work. I’d
suggest #99250, #18096…, but any will do. Go ahead and zoom in,
look at the details. Understand in doing this that the price
differential between silver and gold was nowhere near what it is
today. The difference in craftsmanship is not so much about value -
they are all giving it their best shot, it’s that the gold CAN be
worked to a level 1000 times higher than the silver. Get it?