Good sapphires are relative - and subjective; If one is talking about
natural corundum, or lab grown material there are differing grades of
both. Currently the wholesale gem market is glutted with sapphires of
all grades, and treatments available in perhaps the widest spectra of
colours that have ever been available to jewelers in the history of
gem trading and jewelry making- I have personally paid 2500 bucks for
a stone as good as a 15,000$ stone, and equally I have paid 300
bucks for a stone so closely rivalling the 15,000 stone that the
differences are only revealed with specific refractory testing and
"professional" knowledge respective to jewelers and gemologists…
SO tonight I had some students in for an open studio night and I put
4, 6mm round, brilliant dark cerulean to ultramarine blue stones
(using the atlas of colour I recommend to my students, and use with
my clients, suppliers, vendors, cutters, and retail gemstone
customers to standardise the language of colour in communications so
everyone is literally on the ‘same page’ ) on a clean white cotton
velvet pad and asked each of the 7 people present (with reasonable to
expert levels of gemological knowledge & using whatever tools and
testing equipment they chose to use from the available lot) to rank
the stone’s quality and estimate the actual cost of each stone…not
one single person (even a GIA graduate gemologist & whose family
owns one of New Orleans’ finest retail jewelry stores -with 3
locations in GNO) matched the actual price with the stone, and all
rated the stones being compared as AAA, even though one was colour
enhanced yet natural corundum.
John, in this case I think you are incorrect. Gold is easier to work
than silver no question there. It holds incredible detail and the
higher the karat the easier it is to correct mistakes, make less
mistakes in the first place ( no copper = less problems like no fire
scale), more versatility, etc.
but a master at silver work is no less or more able to create the
pieces you cited as a master goldsmith. sure the light makes silver
appear less visually rich, but the ability to produce fine work is up
to the craftsman, not a product of poor photography- as the
"smurfiness" you referred to is largely due to light, not ease of
engravability…gold is more malleable -granted, but a master
silversmith can produce work at least as “classic” as the pieces you
posted links to…again, subjectivity is a part of any interpretation
of artistic expression. I could go on and on about the crystalography
of gold vs. silver- but it seems pointless when some Orchid forum
members can’t agree on any point in this thread that started off as
regards one person’s opinion ( however perceived) that one metal is
unilaterally superior to another - if only visually…
I work predominantly in silver and copper. I bezel set. My pronging
skills are untested. I do some bead setting (similar to gypsy
setting for those who don’t know). I am a Facetor and Cabber as well.
I am an Artist that makes jewelry as opposed to a jeweler that makes
art.
If you are setting a stone in silver you do not want to set a
transparent or translucent stone in a solid back- that’s all I’m
saying- to avoid the problem of silver oxidation darkening or
changing the appearance of a stone. And I have only ever seen the
seating of a bezel set gemstone when the seating was too wide, the
bezel was too shallow, or the stone was too thick at the edge. I cant
imagine it to be very different if pronged. Buff Tops and concave
cuts aside, where might I be wrong?
I just don’t see the problem with what I said other than I might
have come across as a bit flippant or that I did not write enough on
the matter.
I really do appreciate the level of intellect reflected in this
forum. It makes me feel hopeful in knowing that people really do
think and that if I had a problem I could find the solution here.
I would also quickly like to recant a previous post. Lapis and
Sugilite prepolish to 1200 grit and polish with Linde A on leather.
Lapis wet, Sugilite, dry and then wet.
I already sent one reply to this, but one more that is a perfect
example and also an extraordinary piece is:
http://tinyurl.com/263rub
Here is the description of picture at the url that you provided:
Art Nouveau diamond, sapphire and enamel bee brooch by Frederick
Boucheron, Paris circa1895 , with a light yellow rose diamond set
abdomen, pave sapphire thorax,
pave white diamond head and legs, cat’s eye chrysoberyl eyes, pink
to green shaded wings in plique–jour enamel, mounted in gold and
silver. Width 9.5cms / 3’’ Weight: 22gms.
I have enlarged the pertinent words.
Gold in that type of jewellery is only used in skin or clothes
contact areas. The rest is all silver. Besides, did you notice that
stone is a sapphire !
To the larger point.
I do not see why any of the examples that you chose cannot be made
in silver !
You can increase complexity of your examples by a factor or 10, and
I can make it in silver on Monday morning, after drinking all
weekend, and simultaneously having argument with my accountant.
Now you have done it. I have started blowing my own horn.
NOBODY is telling you that you shouldn't set a $10, $20, or even
$50 sapphire into sterling silver. When they are referring to
"good" sapphires, they are talking about
multiple-hundred-or-thousand-dollar stones, not something to set
into a piece of jewelry meant to be one step above fashion jewelry.
Why, exactly, is the item in question thought of by you as the above
comment states- “one step about fashion jewelry”? Because it’s
silver? Because it’s “bridal” jewelry? Neither sounds like a good
reason to me, so I’m curious.
If you are setting a stone in silver you do not want to set a
transparent or translucent stone in a solid back- that's all I'm
saying- to avoid the problem of silver oxidation darkening or
changing the appearance of a stone.
I’ve stayed out of this until now but have a couple of comments on
what you said.
First, it is simple to use Argentium, platinum or several of the
anti-tarnish silvers out there. Second, the head of SOME pieces can
be made with fine silver despite its softness (depends on how its
designed and what the g-forces are expected). Second, at times the
tarnishing aspect of a bezel setting is oversome by inserting a fine
silver foil under the stone. Etc, etc. Nothing I have seen in this
thread has provided any specific or uncontroversial reason why silver
cannot be used for setting “fine” or “precious” stones (I consider
ALL stones to be precious…some pigs are just a bit more equiller
than other pigs as they say). Keep talking folks, maybe someone will
give a really really good reason!
And I have only ever seen the seating of a bezel set gemstone when
the seating was too wide, the bezel was too shallow, or the stone
was too thick at the edge. I cant imagine it to be very different
if pronged. Buff Tops and concave cuts aside, where might I be
wrong?
Sorry,…I don’t understand what you mean. The things you mentioned
seem to me to be designer or maker perrogatives that can be changed
at will.
Nothing I have seen in this thread has provided any specific or
uncontroversial reason why silver cannot be used for setting "fine"
or "precious" stones
With my kid gloves on this time… I think most people on this
thread miss the point. As one boasted the other day “I could make all
that stuff in silver”. Well, of course you could, or a qualified
person could. I could make most of them in copper. The point is, can
you sell it. And I don’t mean “will the public buy it”, I mean are
you really going to put out a 10 carat diamond set into those prongs?
Take as a good example a ballerina ring (if they were selling to
begin with lately…) with some big center stone and like 4 point
baguettes. And take into account the strength of materials, as is our
job. You can set those baguettes with something like 22 gauge wire in
gold, 24 gauge in platinum (though you’d likely use the drawplate, so
it could be 23 gauge). If you set diamond baguettes into 24 gauge
silver prongs, with a bearing cut, you’re going to be able to pull
them off with a fingernail, and if you put that job out you’ll start
getting returns in a week.
You’re going to need at least 20 gauge, which is going to bury the
diamonds under metal. Yes, it can be made in silver, but to make it
in silver with any knowlegable sense of confidence that it won’t come
back on you is going to be something entirely different than if it
were done in platinum. Modelmakers, at least good ones, make platinum
jewelry in silver, but they don’t sell the the silver rings, they
make molds of the models. As I’ve said many times here - I personally
don’t care if someone wants to set anything into anything - it’s the
idea that something like the ballerina can be tossed off in silver
without allowing for the differing properties. You can, but it will
haunt you. You can set a fine 10 carat diamond into silver, but the
prongs (nobody in their right mind would bezel set it unless it
was.5mm platinum) and the supporting ring structure will be so fat,
so you the maker can sleep nights, that it will be something
considerably less than what it could be by simply choosing something
stronger to begin with. Again, a great deal of the reasoning behind
using gold or platinum is not snobbery, it’s engineering.
Hasn’t this topic veered a bit away from the original query? My
Outlook blew up, so I no longer have the original post handy, but
wasn’t this just someone who wanted to make some bridal jewelry and
was not sure if she should set sapphires not into silver, but rather
gold? John, did she ever say anything about making a “ballerina
ring” with a bunch of little baguettes? Clearly many different
materials, metal or not, can be used for jewelry. Clearly all of the
materials involved have limitations which must be taken into
consideration when deciding what size or shape stones into what size
or type of setting into what type of metal or other material. The
idea was that in general, can “good sapphires” work in silver, and
the simple answer is yes. There is no moral obligation to set any
stone over (or under) a certain monetary value into a certain type of
metal. People have even set diamonds into plastic, for heaven’s sake.
If someone likes silver, which can be used to make absolutely
stunning jewelry, then they can put whatever darn stone they want,
expensive or not, into it. We’re not talking about making pieces for
your display case, hoping someone will buy it. These are pieces
custom made for specific people. The usual market limitations of
perceived value don’t apply here- i.e. setting a super pricey stone
into copper and hoping someone doesn’t mind paying a lot for a piece
made with relatively cheap metal. Simple wearability, beauty and
strength apply here, as suited to the occasion.
Not really the same topic - call it “The Big Picture”. The working
properties of metals are fixed and known. Over the millenia those
properties have come to be understood by metalworkers of all kinds,
and it would be pretty literally true to call it a language.
Everybody who desires to be any sort of metalsmith, silversmith,
goldsmith, whatever needs to understand this. What I’ve been trying
to get at about strengths of materials on this thread is not my
opinion, it is the language, and I’m just speaking it. Students are
just learning that language, and that’s fine. It’s when some imagine
that that can reinvent it that they get into trouble. The melting
point of silver is what it is, it cannot be changed - you can make an
alloy, but that’s not silver anymore. The very same with ductility,
malleability, shear strength and everything else - they are what they
are, and you either understand them or you don’t. It’s not a guessing
game, for those who work in the industry (which is vast) or a matter
of opinion. You can set any stone you like into any metal you like,
what you cannot do is make silver, for example, behave like anything
other than silver. And there are a great many people who know just
exactly what that is. Trying to pretend otherwise doesn’t mean that
one can fly higher or run faster, it means they don’t speak the
language, and those who do will simply acknowlege that.
I don’t know Peter Rowe, and to my knowlege his work is not online.
What I do know is that he speaks the language - he may not agree with
what I say here, but we both know which end is up, and we know it of
each other, too. That is the essence of language, afterall. James
Miller and I have exchanged courtesies, and it wasn’t explicitly said
but underneath was “we share the language”. Everyone is welcome to
learn it, the community is large, complex, wonderful and incredibly
knowlegable. Just don’t try to pretend that it’s “bloo” because we
all know it’s blue.
someone who wanted to make some bridal jewelry and was not sure if
she should set sapphires not into silver, but rather gold? John, did
she ever say anything about making a "ballerina ring" with a bunch
of little baguettes?
Exactly what I have been trying to say for a few weeks but for some
reason my posts on this topic don’t seem to make it onto the list
anymore.
As you say Lisa, this is a custom piece, not something that a
“bricks and mortar” jeweller will be stuck with and not able to sell,
and the person who posted originally never mentioned the hugely
expensive sapphires that John keeps talking about.
I would NEVER buy a $15K USD sapphire (that is if I could ever afford
one!) and then set it in silver, in a ring. I agree with John - that
would be ridiculous and I think most people on this list are
intelligent enough to understand what John is saying - but it is not
very relevant to the original question posed. But set attractive
sapphires in silver in a beautiful necklace to wear on the customer’s
wedding day - sure I’d do that and it would look nicer than a lot of
the commercially available necklaces for brides.
Why, exactly, is the item in question thought of by you as the
above comment states- "one step about fashion jewelry"? Because
it's silver? Because it's "bridal" jewelry? Neither sounds like a
good reason to me, so I'm curious.
The reason I place it one step above fashion jewelry is that it was
presented as an cost-effective alternative to bridal fashion
jewelry, sold by bridal shops for some un-named high price.
Before jewellers were able to easily work platinum, most stones were
set in silver I believe and most found in antique jewellery are still
present. The settings may have had to be a little beefier but I don’t
think that silver should be discounted as a metal to set stones in.
Indeed, my wife’s engagement ring which I made as one of my first
ever projects - more out of poverty than anything else - has a
solitaire sapphire set in a silver claw setting between two parallel
gold bars and is still going strong despite almost daily wear over 37
years!