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Custom workman's ring


#1

Hi,

I’ve got a client interested in a custom signet ring that he’ll be
using when he works: lots of contact with tools and tool handles
throughout the day.

Is there a metal that will handle wear better than others as in
scratch the least?

Would be interested to hear you thoughts.

Chris


#2
Is there a metal that will handle wear better than others as in
scratch the least? 

Would you consider stainless steel? AU Enterprises can cast it for
you.

David L. Huffman


#3

this not my professional answer, but I might suggest making it out of
10K. Anything else might be too soft for his job using those tools.

…Gerry!
https://ganoksin.com/blog/gerrylewy/


#4

Hi
we had a similar post a while back, basically

TRADESMEN/WOMEN SHOULD NEVER WEAR RINGS ON THE JOB,

UNLESS THEY WANT TO LOSE A FINGER.

Also real signet rings are made in England and are drop forged
(stamped out) of metal sheet about 2mm thick.

This gives very dense metal.

These are the ones to have a coat of arms/crest engraved into them.

Here is a link http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep800a

Richard


#5
Also real signet rings are made in England and are drop forged
(stamped out) of metal sheet about 2mm thick. This gives very dense
metal. 

No amount of forging or anything else you do to it short of dropping
it into a black hole will change the density of metal. It is a fixed
property of the metals atomic structure.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#6

Richard,

Thanks for the info. I’ll pass along the info to the client as well
and suggest they consider a design they would wear when not working
so they can save a finger.

-Chris


#7

I planned on saying the same thing Jim as “edge packing” is a common
misconception in blacksmithing, however a case could be made for
cast vs wrought density could it not? I assumed the statement was for
drop forging vs casting.

Ric Furrer
Sturgeon Bay WI
doorcountyforgeworks.com


#8
Also real signet rings are made in England and are drop forged
(stamped out) of metal sheet about 2mm thick. This gives very
dense metal. 

Replace the word “dense"with"hard” :wink: CIA


#9

Jim, can you explain the difference between two identical metal
objects, one cast and one forged? There is a difference, I think, and
I understand how it could be thought of a as a difference in density.
If it is not a difference in density, how can it be characterized?

Thanks,
Andy


#10
I planned on saying the same thing Jim as "edge packing" is a
common misconception in blacksmithing, however a case could be made
for cast vs wrought density could it not? I assumed the statement
was for drop forging vs casting. 

Die struck stock is typically wrought material anyway. It is true
castings can and often do have porosity but the density of the metal
is not changed by the presence of porosity. That would be like
saying if I formed a closed hollow ball that the density of the
metal was less.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#11

Also real signet rings are made in England and are drop forged
(stamped out) of metal sheet about 2mm thick. This gives very dense
metal.

Replace the word "dense" with "hard" ;-) 

Yes, the metal does work harden somewhat, during drop stamping tho
not to a hard state. That is always relative of course.

I can confirm that signet rings have been made in the B, ham
jewellery quarter by drop stamping since the mid 1800.s.

before the advent of high frequency induction melting under vacumn
casting.

As im probably the only jewellery drop stamper here on Ganoksin, I
have here some of these victorian signet ring die sets.

nice tooling. tho never used them. The metal was always annealed
after stamping, prior to forming round and soldering up to size.


#12
can you explain the difference between two identical metal
objects, one cast and one forged? There is a difference, I think,
and I understand how it could be thought of a as a difference in
density. If it is not a difference in density, how can it be
characterized? 

By the crystaline structure.

the difference between cast and forged can be seen by the following
method. polish etch and examine the crystal structure.

take steel for example, its always cast in to ingots. if you then
take an ingot and machine a gear from it it will on etching show the
original casting crystal structure. If however you forge the gear
teeth, on etching the grain structure will follow the tooth profile.


#13
can you explain the difference between two identical metal objects,
one cast and one forged? There is a difference, I think, and I
understand how it could be thought of a as a difference in
density. If it is not a difference in density, how can it be
characterized? 

The mechanical properties of metals are affected by composition,
microstructure and processing history. There are several differences
in the properties of cast and wrought metals. With the exception of
wrought metal that is produced by sintering of powdered metals all
wrought metal starts out as a casting so in composition wrought and
cast material are the same. That leaves microstructure and
processing history.

The microstructure and of course the processing history are
significantly different between wrought and cast. The first major
difference is in crystal size and shape, in an as cast form the
crystals are very large as compared to a typical piece of wrought
material there is also a great variation in size of the cast
crystals depending on how close to the mold wall they are with the
interior most crystals being larger and more equiaxed in shape and
the ones closer to the mold wall being smaller and having a more
directional form. Wrought material will have smaller crystals and
depending on whether it is in the annealed or work hardened state
either an equiaxed or directional shape imparted by the cold work
process. Secondly as the metal alloy cools from liquid it doesn’t
freeze as a homogenous liquid but rather as a range of alloys
varying in composition. This means that the interior of the crystals
are one composition and as you move across the section of the
crystal the alloy changes in composition. This change in composition
is from the highest melting to the lowest melting temperature alloys
possible from the combinations of the metals in the alloy. This is
referred to as coring. In a wrought item the alloy is much more
homogenous because the diffusion and recrystallization that occurs
during heating for annealing has allowed the elements to get closer
to an equal distribution in the piece. Different casting processes
will also cause some variation in crystal structure due mostly to
speed of cooling, metal poured into a steel mold will show less
coring than investment cast pieces and the greater the cross section
of the piece the greater the amount of coring will occur.

So typically with jewelry metals the as cast state is the softest
and lowest strength state the alloy can achieve. In wrought metal
the hardness and strength will vary greatly depending on the most
recent processing history. So it can be quite soft and relatively
low strength if it has just been annealed or very hard and at its
highest strength if it has undergone significant cold work without
annealing. The microstructure will reflect these conditions. Another
significant contribution in processing history is the various heat
treatments the metal has undergone as they will greatly affect
microstructure along with strength and hardness.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#14

Jim,
Density, I suppose being an absolute.

So you distinguish between the density of the underlying material
and that of the finish object. Would the term be Relative density or
specific weight or specific gravity

What is the proper term to be applied here? So I have two blocks of
swish cheese. one as cut from the wheel and the other cut from the
wheel, dropped on the floor and stepped upon.

You say both are of the same density… Both weigh the same. one
takes up less space.

HIP precesses are used to densify casting. it is one of the major
selling points.

Of course if we could get the porosity to all form on the outside of
the casting things would be different.

It is possible for two wrought products to be different as well…

one could have gas absorbed into interstitial spaces and be thus
heavier. embrittled perhaps, but. no larger in volume.

one could have micro cracks
one could have lattice displacements. i. e. dislocations.

one slightly warmer

Ric Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
doorcountyforgeowrks.com


#15

On my Ganoksin blog: ‘On Your Metal’ I have a post: ‘Forging a signet
ring using the rolling mills’ http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep800i

I have used this method successfully when I want a heavy signet ring
as most of the modern signet ring are too light for my liking.

Forging will give you ‘hard’ metal’.

jewellerydavidcruickshank.com.au


#16

My lovely wife with the Ph. D. in metallurgy is getting golf ball
sized bumps from banging her forehead on the desk over this density
issue. You don’t change the density by hammering, striking, or
forging a metal. You are work hardening it when you do that. It is
harder, not denser.

For cast versus wrought, wrought is a cast microstructure that has
been worked (hardened to create lots of dislocations and to mush up
the as-cast grain structure) that is then annealed to recrystallize
the grain structure (grow fresh grains). An as-cast microstructure
looks like interlocking trees or a bunch of tall buildings side by
side, depending on how you look at it. A wrought grain structure
looks like random paving stones. The mechanical properties are
different between these two microstructures.

Hope this helps
Sam


#17

Perhaps the answer lies in phrasing. Instead of saying that the
"material" is denser, we might say the the “object” is denser. The
material doesn’t change but the object made of it would vary from
cast to forged…

Andy


#18

a strong alloy that won’t get so damaged as high karat golds will
with daily exposure to hand work- 14 kt gold would be the highest
karat I would use if yellow or a colour is wanted. titanium, which
isn’t so easy to fabricate with traditional tools and methods, would
be more practical but in my opinion not nearly as attractive.
Palladium would be a white alloy with a decent perceived value being
a platinum group metal but again, if white isn’t desired. you are
back to an alloy of gold in yellow or a colour other than red. If the
person does electrical work then it seems moot as rule 1 in
electrician’s school is to remove metal jewelry when doing work- so
any material the client desires could be used,.lower karat yellow
golds while far stronger (9-12kt) will still need reshaping
periodically to true the piece so make sure the shank has some width
and isn’t thin around the back of the finger. also setting any stone
in the top as for a true signet which was designed to be used as a
seal, the metal should rise a bit above the height you would
ordinarily fabricate to offer a small degree of protection to the
stone provided the person is going to wear the stone daily…

The finger the person intends to wear it on is also of significance
in the design process as if its a “pinkie” ring then that finger is
usually curled under the hand grasping the hammer, etc and may get
scratched readily -So a harder stone is a better choice than a soft
material like turquoise, etc. carnelian, garnet, sapphire in any
colour, spinel or zircon that comes in a huge variety of colours
shouldn’t be ruled out, jades or onyx which are available as “buff
top” stones are very suitable, though static. Cabs or carved stones
(perhaps a family heraldic crest or some organization’s logo or
identifying symbology is wanted so the material should then be chosen
with carving also kept in mind) A stone like Covellite, though
gorgeous and a stone men like due to the deep navy blue to iridescent
red- violet (when waxed) and occasional white-ish matrix throughout
some pieces isn’t indicated as it’s so soft one blow from a minor
accident can shatter it to the point it is unrepairable. same for
emeralds where temperature changes can affect it as well as blows
make it impractical for everyday use. Sardonyx and other stones of
arron may be wanted for symbolic reasons. It is also important in
designing a custom piece to work with the client in selecting the
hardest stone possible from his colour preferences and considering
any meaning he would like to attach to the signet so it can become an
heirloom or legacy that will hold up if he insists on wearing it to
work.

Perhaps when fabricating it make a couple of extra castings should
it get lost or damaged, or at least, keep a copy of the model (a 3D
printer can make one in seconds in a variety of materials on the
spool, some of which can be directly burned out- many communities
have shared equipment facilities or print shop style machine use
where you pay per piece as you would for making any copy, the price
varying with the material on the spool since some is water soluble,
some solvent soluble, others can be burned out safely (with good
ventilation), etc. and 3D printing is far faster than remaking a
master again should the ring become damaged or lost. Some printer
sharing facilities operators can load wax wire onto the spool if
necessary- just tell the operator what you plan on using the copies
for)…Otherwise a good plaster master from a model can be kept for
future reference. But I would suggest his leaving the jewellery home
during the work day for many reasons!..rer


#19

Hi Ric,

Density, I suppose being an absolute. 

Ok down the rabbit hole we go :slight_smile:

Mass Density or Density is the property of a material that is the
mass of a homogenous volume of that material. It is typically
expressed in mass per unit volume like grams per cubic centimeter.
It it does change with temperature and pressure so it is reported at
a standard temperature and pressure 273.15 K (0.00 C) and 100 kPa
(0.987 atm). But such changes are not a permanent change, it will
return to its standard density at 273.15 K (0.00 C) and 100 kPa
(0.987 atm).

So you distinguish between the density of the underlying material
and that of the finish object. Would the term be Relative density
or specific weight or specific gravity 

Specific gravity is another expression for density as a multiple of
the weight of the same volume of water or air.

What is the proper term to be applied here? So I have two blocks
of swish cheese. one as cut from the wheel and the other cut from
the wheel, dropped on the floor and stepped upon. 

You could try to differentiate between volumetric density and mass
density but often people will use volumetric density to refer to
mass density. To really confuse things there is a term called bulk
density that is used to define mass/volume of a powder or granular
material.

You say both are of the same density..... Both weigh the same. one
takes up less space. 

That is the point of the homogenous term in the definition of
density.

HIP precesses are used to densify casting. it is one of the major
selling points. 

So a little loose in terminology, it does heal internal voids but
will not fix any porosity that has a path to the surface so it only
fixes isolated voids

Of course if we could get the porosity to all form on the outside
of the casting things would be different. 
It is possible for two wrought products to be different as
well.... 
one could have gas absorbed into interstitial spaces and be thus
heavier. embrittled perhaps, but. no larger in volume. 

Oxides or nitrides would have a lower density than the metal and of
course now aren’t homogenous.

one could have micro cracks one could have lattice displacements.
i. e. dislocations. 

So you raise good points that show how complex this could get but
the point I was trying to make is die striking will not change the
mass density of the metal, that is a property of the metal itself.

Regards,

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts


#20
What is the proper term to be applied here? So I have two blocks
of swish cheese. one as cut from the wheel and the other cut from
the wheel, dropped on the floor and stepped upon. You say both are
of the same density..... Both weigh the same. one takes up less
space. 

This is a very good example to explain density and volume.

Assuming the hypothetical cheese has the same density and the same
volume, when you step on one piece the volume is still the same,
that does not change. The cheese may get thinner when you step on it,
but it covers more area, and the volume stays the same.

This is the same principle as metals.

When you cast metal there may be porosity, and the casting could be
viewed as you would a synthetic sponge. The HIP process just removes
those voids. It makes a casting more dense by removing porosity. If
you did this to a synthetic sponge you would end up with a smaller
solid piece or rubber.

I’ll admit I thought edge packing was compressing metal, but it’s
not, Jim kindly worked me through that. and I recall I was very
stubborn at the time :wink:

Kindest regards Charles A.