I think we have to take a step back, and get rid of the notion that
one construction method is better than another
Why should we do that? A construction methods is better or worse
than some other. Giving a particular situation there will be only
one method suited best. Isn't it the job of a goldsmith to find and
apply this methods? What do you think separates a good goldsmith
from a better one?
Fair enough, I agree with you that given a particular situation a
method should be used that is most suitable.
Determining that suitability is relative to the job and the
individual craftsperson. We see that Jim sees the value of cast
objects, and has used such in is work.
We also see that you have cast objects
What separates a good goldsmith from a better one?
Someone that listens to their customers, would be my first
thought.
Someone looking for ways to work more efficiently without losing
quality.
Someone that adds value to the craft by offering advice and
practical solutions.
These can be applied to any craftsperson, goldsmith or otherwise.
Do you have any pictures of this thing you do, Mr Supin? Maybe you
could post them on your blog? It would intrest me greatly to see
pictures of chased bronze that was formed by welding. ( I assume
that you mean brazing, not welding? ) I am a firm believer that
pictures are the proof of the pudding... the taste comes
afterwards. But I am always willing to learn a new technique.
I did not work in bronze for ages, so I have no pictures. Even if I
would, there is nothing to see. It is not something new. It is a
repair technique, and it looks exactly like casting. Otherwise,
whatās the point. And it is welding. There is no other metal
involved by bronze.
Technique in itself is not inherently better or worse. Itās the
craftsman executing the techniques. We both fabricate old school
style and cast as well.
For my example look at the cover of this monthās MJSA Journal.
āAffordable Luxury. Casting lighter weight platinum heirlooms.ā
A cast piece of platinum. Now for contrast and compareā¦ Go to our
web site and click on āRingsā and scroll to the bottom where there is
a pic of a cast blue sapphire and platinum piece my sweetie Tim made
this last week.
I would say there has been more stones lost in the last 10 years
with this "new tecnology" than in the last 100 years with the real
pave'.
Boy, aināt that the truth, Bill!
Machine cut bead setting is about as sorry an excuse for jewelry as
youāll ever find, by and largeā¦ Settings designed by folks who
donāt know anything at all about how setting is done, very
oftenā¦
* Someone that listens to their customers, would be my first
thought.
* Someone looking for ways to work more efficiently without losing
quality.
* Someone that adds value to the craft by offering advice and
practical solutions.
These can be applied to any craftsperson, goldsmith or otherwise.
You are confusing goldsmith and businessman. All property that you
listed are important for business, but have nothing to do with
goldsmithing in pure sense.
There is a book by Henry Vever āFrench Jewellery of 19-th Centuryā.
If you want to understand about goldsmithing, you should read it.
It's not that Jim is wrong, just idealism, again. Don't use wood
bark for an example, use a house fly or another insect.
I feel I have to stick my nose in once again (so what else is new,
Neil? I heard that).
I donāt feel that burning out and casting natural objects
constitutes goldsmithing or jewelry making. Those skills are involved
certainly. Handmade insects have been done too. Imo, more
interestingly than exact duplicates. Whereās the creativity in what
amounts to knocking off mother nature?
I guess it brings up the questionā¦What is goldsmithing? Iām not
intending to hijack the thread nor start another unanswerable
philosophical discussion, sorry. Not looking for email either. People
could consider this point on their own if they wish.
Wait a minute, Iāll come back around to the subject as soon as I
remember it.
Oh yeahā¦relative value. Go ahead, cast a duplicate housefly. Sell
it. How much did you get for it? Now make a very nice, crafted piece
with character (cast or fabbed your choice) of the same general
description. What did that sell for? I contend its not the process,
its not even the object in and of itself. Its how the buyer perceives
its value. (āValueā is at least 50% emotional, thatās where
goldsmiths come in) The buyer knows not how it was made, nor care a
whole lot, in fact beyond a certain point their eyes just glaze over
anyway. A well āmadeā interpretation will be looked at for years. How
often do you want to look at an icky old fly, the kind you buy a bug
zapper for?
Iām not really a fan of calling jewelry art, but I concede it can
be. So for this moment Iāll call it art. If the art is successful (in
ALL its ramifications) who cares how it was made? Isnāt that the
artistās prerogative?
Sorry if I seem snarky but its my day off, yet here I am in the
shop, distracted by Orchid once again.
There is a book by Henry Vever "French Jewellery of 19-th
Century". If you want to understand about goldsmithing, you should
read it.
So what youāre saying is that a goldsmith in the purest form isnāt
in it to make money, or try to find new ways of doing things, or
offering advice?
I suppose any craft in its purest form is about the art. However I
prefer to look for better ways, to share and letās face
it Iām not independently wealthy, so I need to keep my customers
happy by listening to what they want. Without customers, a patron, or
being independently wealthy, being a goldsmith or jeweller would be
very difficult.
I would argue the point that a goldsmith āisā about the business,
due to the price of the raw material, the goldsmith has to buy gold.
I see that you sell DVDs, is this how you support your goldsmithing
art?
much can be done by hand. I think that hand made pieces have a
little more soul in them because of the challenge of hand
fabrication. One thing to consider though. one cubic inch of
hammered metal is going to be denser and weigh more then one cubic
inch of cast metal.
I know that when I take stock (which was a cast ingot rolled or
drawn into material so denser at this start), and then shape with
hammers on an anvil or stakes or mandrels, etc. , it is becoming even
more dense. So you can easily argue that a cast ring compared to a
fabricated ring of the exact same dimensions, is going to have less
density, less weight and not wear as long or be quite as strong.
Over the years I have repaired beautiful jewelry made in the
nineteenth century entirely by hand that still shows great detail and
then think of something cast in the early to mid twentieth century
that has lost itās edges. Of course I donāt know the wearing habits
of those who owned the jewelry, I would still argue that the jewelry
hand fabricated will out wear the cast. I happen to prefer
fabricating when at all possible over making a wax. I know it will
have a very pleasing weight, it will hold it edges longer and I like
the challenge especially in fabicating platinum.
how can the Jeweller tell if it's cast or fabricated?
Basically, a fabricated piece will be polished and finished in
places where it would be impossible to get to with a cast piece.
Thatās the easiest way to determine.
As to the relative values, the customer is the only one that can
determine which is better for them, and they can only determine that
by being educated. When I demonstrate the differences to people I
use a hand fabbed three stone ring and a ring made using three cast
heads soldered together and soldered to a cast shank. It is
relatively easy to show them the differences, especially when using a
video microscope. All but the most clueless can easily see and
understand what makes one superior to the other. The hard part comes
when I tell them the difference in price. Then their decision comes
down to whether that extra bit of detail is worth more than twice the
price or not. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isnāt. In either case,
itās not my call. For someone that wants only the finest quality and
craftsmanship available, itās a no-brainer. For the first-time
diamond buyer with a very limited budget, it is also a no-brainer.
Just like the breakfast cereal, both of them are right!
As someone else said, casting as a manufacturing technique for
jewelry has only been in wide-spread use for about a century. Before
that, only the mega-wealthy could afford jewelry beyond simple bands
and the like. So in answer to what I consider to be the accurate
assessment that cast jewelry is not as strong, clean or desirable as
fabbed jewelry, I would only say that casting has opened the door of
jewelry ownership to the multitudes in a way that nothing in history
has ever been able to do. For us in the business, and for those
jewelry lovers that arenāt among the mega-wealthy, that can only be a
good thing.
For the person that likes to carve and cast, there are a whole lot
more people that can afford to buy their work. For the craftsman that
wants to fabricate only the finest quality work humanly possible, the
presence of cast jewelry in the marketplace makes their work all that
more special, unique and appealing. I also think that in todayās
world, a competent goldsmith that wants or needs to make a living
must be fluent in both techniques. A jewelry professional that snubs
one technique or the other does so only at their own expense, unless
their objective is to give up that entire segment of their market to
someone else with somewhat less lofty ideals. Those that donāt need
to make a living at it can afford to be snobs if they want to, and
can further impress by waxing eloquent about how the only automobile
really worth owning is one that is entirely hand-made, like a
Lamborghini. But, wait! Lamborghini uses lost wax casting for some
of their parts too (oh - the shame of it)! Whatās a poor snob to do
in the modern world?
I believe that the most accurate way to identify fabricated jewelry
is to scrutinize it with a loop. 99 % of the time I can find either.
1- near microscopic porosity along a seam (and if itās fabricated it
WILL have seams),
2- fine saw cut marks where there would be cut outs (example- if it
is the āDutchess Antiqueā style of the late eighteen hundreds and
forward.
3- also look at inside areas that seam to be out of reach of buffs,
if fabricated there will be a textural difference to what would be
typical of cast.
If fabricated, flat inside areas would typically be smooth since it
was fabricated from sheet or wire. Even if something was first
fabricated and then a master mold was made from the fabricated
piece, under magnification, you would see a very slight difference
in the sharpness of inside angles. To catagorically say fabricated
then you need to be able to identify theindividual peices of the
construction.
much can be done by hand. I think that hand made pieces have a
little more soul in them because of the challenge of hand
fabrication. One thing to consider though. one cubic inch of
hammered metal is going to be denser and weigh more then one cubic
inch of cast metal.
While I am a fan of fabricating over casting I am afraid that the
difference in density between one cubic inch of cast vs 1 cubic inch
of wrought metal will be difficult to measure without the most
precise of laboratory balances. This assumes a well cast object of
course. The differences in density will be for the most part
insignificant. Where there is a definite difference is the crystal
structure of a casting will be very large and the metal will be in
its softest lowest strength form. Even when fully annealed wrought
metal will have a smaller crystal structure and a higher tensile
strength than cast metal.
I would argue the point that a goldsmith "is" about the business,
due to the price of the raw material, the goldsmith has to buy
gold. I see that you sell DVDs, is this how you support your
goldsmithing art?
Making DVDs is practicing goldsmithing in itās purest form. I can
take as much time is it requires. It is truly liberating experience.
how can the Jeweller tell if itās cast or fabricated?
Basically, a fabricated piece will be polished and finished in
places where it would be impossible to get to with a cast piece.
That's the easiest way to determine.
Excuse me but Iām a noob to jewellery, can you expand on this a
little? Iām trying to fathom if you have two similar pieces, and the
same lathe is used in the polishing process, why canāt you get into
those recesses?
As someone else said, casting as a manufacturing technique for
jewelry has only been in wide-spread use for about a century.
I should qualify that, āmodernā jewellery casting has been in use
for about a century, we have artifacts that range 1000, 2000, and
further back that are cast jewellery.
As someone else said, casting as a manufacturing technique for
jewelry has only been in wide-spread use for about a century.
I should qualify that, "modern" jewellery casting has been in use
for about a century, we have artifacts that range 1000, 2000, and
further back that are cast jewellery.
There is a huge difference between the modern lost wax investment
casting and the techniques used before the early 1900ās. The
dentists developed the technique in current use in the late 1800ās.
Before that time the level of detail that was achievable in a raw
casting was quite different. The bulk shape was there but the detail
was chased and engraved into the piece after casting as a part of the
finishing process.
While I am a fan of fabricating over casting I am afraid that the
difference in density between one cubic inch of cast vs 1 cubic
inch of wrought metal will be difficult to measure without the most
precise of laboratory balances. This assumes a well cast object of
course. :-)
Funny you should mention this.
This sort of mirrors what we were taught in class yesterday, with
the Archimedian principles.
Gold has a specific gravity, whether the gold is cast or wrought it
will still have the same specific gravity.
The tensile strength will be different though with gold wrought and
cast.
We were discussing different metals yesterday and platinum came up,
the teacher mentioned that there is no significant metallurgical
difference between a platinum casting and a wrought platinum object.
So of course I thought I get peopleās opinions on this.
Practicing goldsmithing in itās purest form is practicing
goldsmithing, not making DVDās. Itās not about the business. Itās
about making a beautiful peice of jewelry and pricing it so the
client can afford it. If you love your art, you make it afordable to
the custromer and you feel that your mission is making people happy.
and forget about the reality of bills. Not to say that survivale is
not importantā¦ it isā¦ but the art is first. There is an old
saying not too far from the truth, āthose who know do, those who
donāt teachā.
Once I went to a three generation boot company for a pair of really
good hiking boots. The third generation owner looked at my feet, did
not measure, and went in to the stock room and came out with a pair
of boots (Fabianos!) that fit perfectly. In my twenties, a friend
who was house sitting for a master baker from Denmark. We had pick a
lot of blueberries that day and want end to make a pie. We went into
his kitchen and was amazed to learn that he had no measuring
devisesā¦ none. Your fear is unfounded. I have been hand
fabricating jewelry for 40 years. And very difficult pieces in
platinum for the top stores in the country. The difference in cast
vrs. fabricated is distinct. Maybe after a few more miles under your
belt youāll understand. The density is significant. Your answer tells
me that you have not done very much hand fabrication in the noble
metals. Otherwise you would understand the difference. Sorry for
being blunt, but I donāt want people who are trying to learn from
these forums to be miss lead.
Making DVDs is practicing goldsmithing in it's purest form. I can
take as much time is it requires. It is truly liberating
experience.
So the answer is āyesā then?
Well thatās great, I donāt have DVD planned yetā¦ I suppose I could
do one on thermite casting techniques. Very spectacular btw, and very
primalā¦ if youāre into that kind of thing. Making a metal from an
oxide is very satisfying.
Then I could devote myself to which ever art I choose, and not
actually have to sell anything, apart for the DVDs
There is a huge difference between the modern lost wax investment
casting and the techniques used before the early 1900's. The
dentists developed the technique in current use in the late
1800's. Before that time the level of detail that was achievable in
a raw casting was quite different. The bulk shape was there but the
detail was chased and engraved into the piece after casting as a
part of the finishing process.
That not exactly right, you need to see some of the artifacts that
are available. Some of the as-cast Viking artifacts are superb, they
have been polished though, and the detail was very fine indeed.
Sure the investment mixtures were different, using horse dung and
clay, but the detail was very high.
If you can borrow āViking Artefactsā by James Graham-Campbell, I
would suggest borrowing it, unless you have a spare $1500 USD laying
around. There are examples of aquamanillia that are as cast, only
having a polish. There are many more examples of fine pieces that
have only been polished. Thatās only in Europe, Japan and China have
some pretty wicked objects.
I am fortunate enough to own a 5th Century Anglo-Saxon brooch, the
details are sharp to this day, there is no engraving on it. It does
show some wear, but thatās to be expected from an piece of jewellery
thatās been around for 1500 years.
Hey, lets skip the balancesā¦Lets think about it for a moment. if
you took two small boxes of a specific cubic inch capacity and cast a
piece of metal to fit one of those boxes and did. then you took a
cast piece of metal that was greater in dimension which would, of
course, weigh more because it IS dimensionally bigger, then
compressed it till it would fit in the box, they would have the same
weight? Of course not. Donāt exchange specific gravity with weight.
If you can compress more molecules in to the same space it will weigh
more. Specific gravity is molecular. The molecules will still have
the same specific gravity but you have increased the mass by
increasing the amount of molecules in the same space, there for,
increased the weight. Actually the latest theories are that gravity
is sub atomic. Think about it then, how much you could increase
weight by the compression of molecules in to the same amount of cubic
space. You are in essence increasing the specific gravity. Do you
understand the theory of increased density the in black holes? Note-
The molecule will have the same specific gravity but if you are able
to compress more molecules in the same space you are increasing the
total amount of āgravityā, ei. more weight. Whenever I watched
Superman I would wonder how much he must weigh considering the
density of his body to be able to have the strength and the ability
to pit himself against things so much greater in size then himself.
But to put in practical terms, I have countless experiences with the
differences. Cast is heavier and stronger, Period. I donāt know how
old you are but you sound like the way I would think about it when I
was in my twenties and maybe early thirties with out a lot of
experiential knowledge.
The differences in density will be for the most part