Argentium silver adventures and questions

Jewelry Discussion
1

Well, I’ve finally done it. I sent off (nearly) all of my old
sterling scrap and stock and replaced it with Argentium stock.

I’ve read and re-read Cynthia’s article and Trevor’s blog (thank you
both!!!)

I’ve been working with the new product this week and have some
observations and questions I don’t recall in the I’ve
been able to read.

  • Spent paillons often have rounded corners but look as though they
    have not really melted at all while the joint has been soldered. They
    do seem to melt better if I actually hit them with the torch about
    the time they’re ready to go, just as Trevor said. I’m using Rio’s
    Argentium sheet solder.

  • An average paillon of solder travels much farther in a seam than
    the standard alloys did, even while the paillon appears still intact!
    This also leads me to want to snip the paillons much smaller than I
    did with the regular silver solders.

  • The soldered seams do not show the fillet I’m used to with regular
    sterling and the joints are more obvious - almost porous/pitted. I
    must be doing something wrong here but it certainly isn’t a lack of
    available solder (see above). Could it be that I’m OVER-heating the
    solders by keeping the flame on the area too long, expecting the
    solder to visibly melt and flow? I’ve worked with very low light as
    well but don’t see the flash in the seam I’m used to with regular
    sterling solders.

  • When fabricating something with a bit of size, say an inch 1/2 or
    more in one dimension, is it reasonable to think a Meco Midget’s
    flame will properly expose the Argentium Sterling to enough oxygen to
    develop its protective oxide layer? I am just beginning to use the
    Oxy/Propane Meco and am not proficient with it at all. Using a more
    oxidizing flame increases the danger of my seriously over-heating or
    even melting the stuff. I am instead relying more on my dirty old
    acetylene/air torch to be sure the metals get plenty of heat and
    oxygen without spot-burning. Maybe I have too many variables going
    here and should stick with the acetylene until I get the Argentium
    quirks figured out then switch torches?

It seems the Argentium is not as forgiving as regular sterling in
that a freshly filed/sanded surface doesn’t seem clean enough to
allow solder to flow - even the flux seems to bead up as on a dirty
surface unless I degrease these freshly abraded areas. I notice this
with either fuel.

Most of the other features have been “as advertised” and so far I
love not having to coat with firescale preventative and that it
polishes up so nicely. I agree with Trevor that the finish process
seems to go more smoothly after heat precipitation. I’m using my
(just cleaned) toaster oven.

I’m looking forward to great happiness with the Argentium Sterling.
However, if anyone can shed some light on my difficulties and
shorten my learning curve in the meantime, I’ll be much indebted.

Thanks.
Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

2

Pam

I read all the folks you did, plus some. I agree, I like the
differences from regular sterling. I didn’t get rid of all my old
sterling though, chicken I guess.

I had the same problem at first, I don’t heat as much now, the
porosity I took to be bubbles in my solder joint so I reduced the
heat, since then I have not had the problem. I don’t use sheet
solder, I use the wire pulled down to 28 or 30 ga. Electronic
soldering, old habits die hard. Another thing, I got my solder from
Rio, and they only sell easy for Argentium, so the temperature is
lower I assume the sheet is also.

I have not had the problem of losing the filet, I am using propane
most of the time, I only use Oxy/acetylene on occasion for large,
fast, weld (sorry don’t remember what jewelers call it) or very
focused things.

I have found pre-heating (just pass the flame around until you see
the metal relax) helps on the flow of flux and solder. I think there
is some substance on the Argentium which does not come off during
sanding, it is probably some kind of lubricant from the manufacturing
process. On a piece I was working tonight I preheated first, fluxed
and soldered without sanding, it went very well. I saved all sanding
for last.

I did not see the (flash) run through at solder temp on Argentium
either, the first time I made a jump ring, I melted it waiting for
the flash.

Hope this will help you in the right direction.

Terry

3 
- Spent paillons often have rounded corners but look as though they
have not really melted

I don’t know where I learned this term but I know that as “ghosting”
and yes, I’ve seen a fair bit of that with the Argentium Sterling
(AS) solders. (As far as I know all the AS solder is coming from one
source, Stern-Leach, and is being distributed by folks like Stuller,
Rio, etc. In other words we’re all working with the sale basic stock
regardless of who’s name is one it.)

Fromwhat I can see the easier grades have a lesser tendency to ghost
so that might be one direction to head if you want to eliminate some
of these inconveniences. I was a little reluctant to follow that
recommendation at first --I always believed that the harder solders
were stronger but apparently that’s not true-- but once I did life got
a little easier soldering-wise.

...the joints are more obvious - almost porous/pitted.

You may well be right in guessing that this is a heat-related problem
but I have another avenue of experimentation to offer in your quest:
flux. For whatever reason the AS solders seem to like some fluxes a
lot more than others and using the “right” one can help things a lot.

I was a bit spoiled in this regard because I got flux advice from
Peter Johns even before I received my first batch of AS. I bought the
Thessco “F” stuff on his recommendation and have found it to be
pretty stellar stuff for all but the Hard grade AS solders.

Marty over at argexp.blogspot.com has done some experimentation with
different fluxes on AS because he too was having troubles. I believe
he settled on My-T-Flux, again at Peter’s recommendation, as a good US
product though I’ve heard that Cupronil is good too. I’ve tried
neither of these so I’m just passing along second hand info here.

In brief I think it comes down to this: the “best” flux for your AS
work may be one you aren’t using yet.

One other thing I might suggest --seems to me someone else has said
the same somewhere-- is to heat the actual solder chips as little as
possible until the seam is “up to temp”. I know that sounds a little
vague but the working knowledge I have of it is that the seam should
be hot enough for the solder to flow before you apply heat directly
to the solder chip. Clearly this is rather difficult to do sometimes
which is why I find myself doing more and more pick soldering
(bringing the solder chip to the seam once the seam is hot).

The AS solders do seem to be a bit fussier than regular solders in
terms of the ghosting probs and the like but I’ve found that with a
little experimentation one’s processes and techniques can be tweaked
to produce superior results. For instance I never get pitted solder
seams as you’ve described and I very rarely get chip ghosting using
the pick techniques.

I must say though that once you get things working nicely with the AS
solders I have found that they are quite superior in the finished
product to regular AS solders. Better color (as in no visible seam
lines) and better flow characteristics are the primary points I like
about the AS solders.

It seems the Argentium is not as forgiving as regular sterling in
that a freshly filed/sanded surface doesn't seem clean enough to
allow solder to flow....

I have to say that my experience is rather the reverse, that AS is
less finicky about cleanliness that regular sterling but that’s they
way these things go I guess. I strongly suspect that this is again the
flux issue as described above rather than a problem with AS itself.

The way I look at it is that the “right” flux is like the right
lubricant for the job. Not all lubricants are created equally and
each has their preferred area(s) of application. Experiment a little.
Once you find the right lube things will get a whole lot easier and
will often be much more satisfying, if you’ll excuse my taking
liberties with the metaphor.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

4 
Another thing, I got my solder from Rio, and they only sell easy
for Argentium, so the temperature is lower I assume the sheet is
also.

Thank you so much for your comments, Terry. Sounds like our
experiences are similar. I think I will stick with the Acetylene for
most of my AS fabrication for a while yet.

Concerning the Argentium solders, Rio now has three grades available
in either sheet or wire. I’ve used sheet for years - never really got
the hang of wire soldering but maybe pulling it down finer would
help.

Thanks again.

Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

5

I have been having similar problems with Argentium Solder. I however
use Argentium Medium on most of the piece and then go to Easy for
last applications. The solder does not seem to completely melt. I
thought I was not getting it hot enough so I turned up the heat - the
solder melted a little bit better but it pushed the metal into a
dangerous area. I tried using paste flux and that didn’t make a
difference. It kind of acts like the metal is ‘dirty’. What method do
you use to clean and degrease your metal before working? Can any of
the Argentium specialists comment?

6 
I've been working with the new product this week and have some
observations and questions I don't recall in the I've
been able to read. - Spent paillons often have rounded corners but
look as though they have not really melted at all while the joint
has been soldered. They do seem to melt better if I actually hit
them with the torch about the time they're ready to go, just as
Trevor said. I'm using Rio's Argentium sheet solder.

Pam, try this: don’t wait until the solder is ready to melt before
putting the torch on it. After a quick overall heating of the metal,
concentrate the heat on the seam, just as you would if it were gold,
or the way you wanted to heat the metal when you were a beginner.
Argentium Sterling does not conduct heat as well as traditional
sterling (germanium is a semi-conductor, like silicon, remember?).
So, heat the area adjacent to the solder. Don’t try to have all the
solder flow at once. Start at one end of the seam, and move the heat
along, as the solder melts.

- An average paillon of solder travels much farther in a seam than
the standard alloys did, even while the paillon appears still
intact! This also leads me to want to snip the paillons much
smaller than I did with the regular silver solders.

That sounds like a reasonable idea — at least for now, while you
are getting accustomed to things.

- The soldered seams do not show the fillet I'm used to with
regular sterling and the joints are more obvious - almost
porous/pitted. I must be doing something wrong here but it
certainly isn't a lack of available solder (see above). Could it be
that I'm OVER-heating the solders by keeping the flame on the area
too long, expecting the solder to visibly melt and flow? I've
worked with very low light as well but don't see the flash in the
seam I'm used to with regular sterling solders.

Pam, I almost wonder if what is actually happening is that the metal
is fusing, rather than the solder flowing. It seems to me that this
could happen if the entire piece of metal is heated, rather than just
the areas adjacent to the seam.

I find that the condition of the flux is the best indicator of heat
when I am soldering any metal, but especially when I solder Argentium
Sterling, which has such a dim glow. Try soldering with the lights
on, and be a bit more lavish with the flux, so that you can see when
the flux on the metal on each side of the seam looks the same
temperature.

What flux are you using? I really like the way that Rio’s My-T-Flux
works with Argentium Sterling.

- When fabricating something with a bit of size, say an inch 1/2
or more in one dimension, is it reasonable to think a Meco Midget's
flame will properly expose the Argentium Sterling to enough oxygen
to develop its protective oxide layer? I am just beginning to use
the Oxy/Propane Meco and am not proficient with it at all. Using a
more oxidizing flame increases the danger of my seriously
over-heating or even melting the stuff. I am instead relying more
on my dirty old acetylene/air torch to be sure the metals get
plenty of heat and oxygen without spot-burning. Maybe I have too
many variables going here and should stick with the acetylene until
I get the Argentium quirks figured out then switch torches?

I agree about reducing the number of variables. Use the torch that
you are most comfortable with. In fact, why not try keeping
everything the same as you are accustomed to except for the metal?
Use the torch, flux, and even the silver solder (med, easy, or extra
easy) that you are accustomed to. Then, when you have soldered
successfully with that situation, change ONE variable. When you’ve
got that situation under control, then change another variable. Too
many changes at once can be totally disorienting.

Don’t worry too much about covering the surface with flux, or what
fuel you use. The germanium migrates to the surface at room
temperature and creates the germanium oxide surface—this will
happen no matter what you do.

It seems the Argentium is not as forgiving as regular sterling in
that a freshly filed/sanded surface doesn't seem clean enough to
allow solder to flow - even the flux seems to bead up as on a
dirty surface unless I degrease these freshly abraded areas. I
notice this with either fuel.

This is surprising to me. I’m not sure what’s going on here, except
I wonder whether you are being too careful about not using too much
flux, out of concern for making sure that the germanium oxide forms?

Most of the other features have been "as advertised" and so far I
love not having to coat with firescale preventative and that it
polishes up so nicely. I agree with Trevor that the finish process
seems to go more smoothly after heat precipitation. I'm using my
(just cleaned) toaster oven.

I am glad that there are some bright spots! What a list of woes! I
find it interesting that you and Trevor find that finishing is better
after heat hardening. I don’t notice any difference whether I harden
or not.

I don’t heat treat everything I make–only things that seem like
they need it.

I'm looking forward to great happiness with the Argentium
Sterling. However, if anyone can shed some light on my difficulties
and shorten my learning curve in the meantime, I'll be much
indebted.

I hope these ideas help!

Cynthia Eid

7 
...The solder does not seem to completely melt. I thought I was not
getting it hot enough so I turned up the heat - the solder melted a
little bit better but it pushed the metal into a dangerous area. I
tried using paste flux and that didn't make a difference. It kind
of acts like the metal is 'dirty'. What method do you use to clean
and degrease your metal before working?

Yeah, I didn’t like reaching that dangerous area.

I have tried cleaning with denatured alcohol, simple green and a
special degreaser (electronics field) called Micro 90. Seems like the
Micro 90 worked quicker at degreasing but can’t say any was better
than the next as far as affecting the soldering experience.

I think I’ll stay away from the hard solder and try a different flux
and softer flame with an eagle eye on the joint for the flow.

Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

8

Pam

Reading some of the other posts I realized I neglected to say which
flux I use, it is Pripps. Tried again last night sanding before
soldering and preheating, preheating still works the best for me to
get the flux and solder to act as I expect.

Terry

9

I too, have had many of the same problems that were described using
the Argentium solders. This prompted me to test several different
fluxes to see if it would help. Indeed there is a great difference in
the way the AS solders work with different fluxes. I now use
My-T-Flux from Rio Grande most of the time, and Dandix when I need a
paste flux. The flux that works best may depend on your working
conditions. Try a few different ones and see what works best for you.
One thing that may help when using the hard solder is to scrub it
with a green “Scotch” pad. I sometimes wonder if the residue that can
be left behind is from the Germanium Oxide.

You may wish to consider is not using any solder at all. Recently I
have been experimenting with fusing parts that I would normally have
soldered. When making a bezel, I have been fusing the ends. When it’s
done right, I can’t find where the ends were. Then the bezel is fused
to the piece. Fusing two pieces of half round to make a ring shank
works great too. Most of the parts can be fused on very easily. With
a little practice, nothing is distorted or melted. The great thing
about using no solder is how rapidly a piece can be fabricated. Just
drop a couple of drops of My-T-Flux and heat. You would be surprised
how solid the parts are fused together. If done properly, you can’t
remove the parts without destroying the piece. I was shocked how well
it works for granulation.

Marty

10

Hi All,

Have been reading the Argentium reports with much interest as I am
also having problems getting the solder to flow. I currently am using
Pripps Flux and am going to try the My-T Flux as soon as I can get
some ordered. I also wonder what torch most are using and what size
tip. I am using a Smith Acetylene/Air and for most work using the #1
tip for work on some relatively large pieces, 2-3 inch in either
direction large bezels, etc. I find the Argentium solder especially
stubborn on sweat soldering. I have been fluxing the pieces, heating
overall and then trying to zero in on the joint area. When the flux
becomes transparent and I think the solder should be starting to melt
it just isn’t. I even switched from the Medium to the Easy solder and
it still isn’t flowing well. Should I be using a smaller tip and
really getting in much closer to the joint as I would with gold?

It’s frustrating because I love not getting all that firescale but I
am finding that I have to heat and reheat many times to get a
completely soldered joint. Your experience, as always, greatly
appreciated.

Grace

11 
Argentium Sterling does not conduct heat as well as traditional
sterling (germanium is a semi-conductor, like silicon, remember?).

Semi-conductor is a term referring to its ability to conduct
electrons not heat. Both germanium and silicon in their natural
state they are not electrical conductors. They can be made into semi-
conductors by the addition of small amounts of “dopants” like
phosphorus and boron. It has nothing to do with thermal
conductivity.

James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

360-756-6550

12

We’re back from our traveling and I want to thank everyone again for
the helpful and encouragement regarding the Argentium
experience.

I’ll be back at the torch tomorrow and am eager to see where things
lead and hopefully will be able to report more progress.

An additional question has come up: Is anyone mounting faceted stones
in prongs of Argentium Silver?

Occasionally I use a faceted stone on a silver piece and in the past
have used commercial heads. The prongs of a regular sterling head
would be annealed after soldering and then hardened by the setting
process.

As far as I know, there are no commercial heads available in AS but
even if there were, wouldn’t the prongs be rather more difficult to
set after the heat precipitation?

Or would the hardened AS prongs seem only a little harder than
annealed regular sterling due to the small prong size?

If I were using AS heads (commercial or self-fabricated) would it be
advisable to set the faceted stones while the AS is in the annealed
state, heat harden the piece and then set any cabochons? This
presumes that the faceted stones can take the heat.

Am I right to believe that starting with a cold oven would not be a
problem in achieving the full hardness of AS? In order to avoid
temperature shocking stones, I’d prefer to place the piece in the
oven and bring it up to temperature rather than placing it in a
pre-heated oven of 500 degrees or more.

Thanks again for sharing your insights and experience.

Pam

Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

13

Hello Pam,

Am I right to believe that starting with a cold oven would not be a
problem in achieving the full hardness of AS?

In my experience this works fine. In terms of hardness the end result
is the same, insofar as I can tell (I don’t have access to hardness
testing machines so I don’t have hard numbers to prove it).

What I have noticed though is that you might get a bit more of the
yellowing tarnish that often happens when you precip harden Argentium
Sterling. This is easily pickled off but you will likely need to
factor that extra step into your work.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

14

Great questions Pam,

As far as I know, there are no commercial heads available in AS
but even if there were, wouldn't the prongs be rather more
difficult to set after the heat precipitation?

One of the first posts on my blog

I attempted to cast a ring with a prong setting in it. I found the
alloy quite hard, but was able to set the stone after getting used
to the feel of the alloy. By the way, as mentioned in my blog, I set
my first casting in the kitchen oven on a cast iron pan to harden it.
This resulted in the Argentium getting a thin layer of brown color
that I had to pickle off. The brown color was caused because I was
placing my Argentium into a dirty oven with a pan that was not
completely clean either. I now know better, and harden it in a clean
oven, placed on a honeycomb ceramic block. By the way, I used no
pickle at all on my latest casting, start to finish (more about that
will be posted in a few weeks). Note: if you ever get your Argentium
Sterling and your regular Sterling Silver mixed up, putting it in a
dirty oven for a time will help you separate it out. The regular
Sterling Silver will stay the same color and the Argentium will get
a light brown coating on it.

    If I were using AS heads (commercial or self-fabricated) would
it be advisable to set the faceted stones while the AS is in the
annealed state, heat harden the piece and then set any cabochons?
This pesumes that the faceted stones can take the heat.

With practice, you should have no problem setting durable stones
with the precipitation hardened Argentium. My latest post on my blog

compares the hardness (in Vickers) of Argentium Sterling Silver with
the hardness of common gold alloys.

Am I right to believe that starting with a cold oven would not be
a problem in achieving the full hardness of AS? In order to avoid
temperature shocking stones, I'd prefer to place the piece in the
oven and bring it up to temperature rather than placing it in a
pre-heated oven of 500 degrees or more.

This should pose no problems. Try adjusting the length of time you
have your piece in the oven until you get the maximum hardness
without wasting energy.

Good luck. In time, I hope that you find as I have, that Argentium
Sterling Silver is much easier to work with than regular Sterling
Silver.

Marty Andersen

15

I’ll be back at the torch tomorrow and am eager to see where things
lead and hopefully will be able to report more progress. Regarding
Argentium Solder, keep in mind that the creation of a solder is very
complicated. Not only does it have to match the alloy that it is
for, but we need at least three different melting temperatures, and
we don’t want cadmium… I think that the Argentium Solders are
still being improved. Some of the earlier batches, especially, don’t
always melt completely. If this seems to be happening to you, don’t
keep heating—that’s not going to help. Just put the solder where it
is easy to clean up.

An additional question has come up: Is anyone mounting faceted
stones in prongs of Argentium Silver? Occasionally I use a faceted
stone on a silver piece and in the past have used commercial heads.
The prongs of a regular sterling head > have used commercial
heads. The prongs of a regular sterling head would be annealed
after soldering and then hardened by the setting process. As far as
I know, there are no commercial heads available in AS but even if
there were, wouldn't the prongs be rather more difficult to set
after the heat precipitation? Or would the hardened AS prongs seem
only a little harder than annealed regular sterling due to the
small prong size?

I think this is correct. It would not be difficult to set, and, like
traditional sterling, there would be some work hardening from the
process.

If I were using AS heads (commercial or self-fabricated) would it
be advisable to set the faceted stones while the AS is in the
annealed state, heat harden the piece and then set any cabochons?
This presumes that the faceted stones can take the heat. Am I right
to believe that starting with a cold oven would not be a problem in
achieving the full hardness of AS? In order to avoid temperature
shocking stones, I'd prefer to place the piece in the oven and
bring it up to temperature rather than placing it in a pre-heated
oven of 500 degrees or more.

You can definitely start with a cold oven. Just don’t start timing
until the temperature is reached. You can use as low a temperature as
360F if you extend the time to two hours. Remember, too, that it is
ok to heat longer----there is no negative effect from doing so.

I hope this helps. Keep us posted!

Cynthia Eid

16 
if you ever get your Argentium Sterling and your regular Sterling
Silver mixed up, putting it in a dirty oven for a time will help
you separate it out. The regular Sterling Silver will stay the same
color and the Argentium will get a light brown coating on it.

Marty, is this a typo? It makes no sense to me that the Argentium
would discolor, but the traditional sterling would not.

Cynthia Eid

17

Hello Cynthia, Marty,

if you ever get your Argentium Sterling and your regular Sterling
Silver mixed up, putting it in a dirty oven for a time will help
you separate it out. The regular Sterling Silver will stay the same
color and the Argentium will get a light brown coating on it.

Marty, is this a typo? It makes no sense to me that the Argentium
would discolor, but the traditional sterling would not.

Reading Cynthia’s response has prompted me to offer a few comments
here.

Marty, I agree with Cynthia. In my own side-by-side tests equally
treated (as in cleaned and sanded) pieces of regular sterling and
Argentium Sterling (AS) do not produce the results you’ve observed.
The regular sterling will often go quite dark or even black while the
AS will only yellow or brown at most.

That said I can imagine that if the regular sterling had had the
silver “raised” on it then your results might well be possible. But
in this case you’re kind of comparing apples and oranges: the regular
sterling would have to have been deliberately, or otherwise,
depletion gilded before doing this.

That said it doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to imagine that you’d
see what you’ve seen if you were intentionally comparing depletion
gilded regular sterling and AS. In my experience the AS has always
yellowed at least a little during the full precip hardening process
at 500 F (260 C) whereas fully depletion gilded regular sterling might
well not show much color change at all.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

18 
if you ever get your Argentium Sterling and your regular Sterling
Silver mixed up, putting it in a dirty oven for a time will help
you separate it out. The regular Sterling Silver will stay the same
color and the Argentium will get a light brown coating on it.

My previous was misstated. Putting the Argentium in a
dirty oven at 500 deg. F. with cast iron pan along with regular
Sterling for a short period of time, the regular Sterling will become
darker than the Argentium Sterling Silver. Putting the Argentium in a
clean oven, sitting on a clean surface prevented the AS from getting
such a dark coating. The light brown coating at that point could
simply be rubbed off.

Marty Andersen

19

Hi,

In my experience the AS has always yellowed at least a little
during the full precip hardening process at 500 F (260 C) whereas
fully depletion gilded regular sterling might well not show much
color change at all.

In my experience, Argentium Sterling that has been repeatedly heated
does not discolor during the hardening process. AS that has been
freshly abraded does discolor; the discoloration comes off in pickle.

Cynthia Eid

20 
if you ever get your Argentium Sterling and your regular Sterling
Silver mixed up, putting it in a dirty oven for a time will help
you separate it out. The regular Sterling Silver will stay the same
color and the Argentium will get a light brown coating on it.

The colors on a heated surface are a film interference color and a
difference is mostly (all) just a matter of thickness of the film.
This is not necessarily true if you cook the piece in a contaminated
oven and condense a film of carbonaceous tar on the surface. The film
thickness is a time at temperature thing, but this is totally true
only if the material and temperature control is identical and the
oven is not contaminated. Different materials will be subject to a
difference in ability to oxidize ( include sulfurization ) with
silver and copper especially. Visual impressions are subjective and
are difficult (impossible?) to compare out of context. Trevor and
Cynthia’s test impressions make technical sense, what might be
expected just from material knowledge. :

“The regular sterling will often go quite dark or even black while
the AS will only yellow or brown at most.”

I believe your “testing” results are uncontrolled and results out of
context in some fashion.

jesse