About gravers

Power assisted graves promote the worst habit a beginner engraver
can acquire - pushing graver instead of turning work, which is an
absolute anathema to developing correct technique. 

Except that the air assisted gravers encourage the same actions as
the traditional gravers ie.the work is still turned into the tool -
the only difference is that the resistance is provided by air in one
and muscle in the other. If you haven’t already tried one of these
newer tools I encourage you to do so.

Roger

Power assisted graves promote the worst habit a beginner engraver
can acquire - pushing graver instead of turning work, which is an
absolute anathema to developing correct technique. 

I can’t imagine Leonid where you get your In power
assisted engraving the basic lesson after learning how to sharpen a
graver is: Turn the work into the graver!

KPK

Power assisted graves promote the worst habit a beginner engraver
can acquire - pushing graver instead of turning work, which is an
absolute anathema to developing correct technique. 

I have to beg to differ, there is a lot to be learned by straight up
engraving with no ball vise. There is absolutely no difference to
pushing and moving the tool into the metal, or moving the metal into
the tool, the end result is the same, a cut piece of metal. A ball
vise, or any rotating work holder is a luxury for an engraver, not a
necessity.

Besides, have you ever tried to do engraving with a traditional
hammer and graver…its impossible to turn the work into the tool
because your using both hands.

P@

Except that the air assisted gravers encourage the same actions as
the traditional gravers ie.the work is still turned into the tool
- the only difference is that the resistance is provided by air in
one and muscle in the other. If you haven't already tried one of
these newer tools I encourage you to do so. 

We can go back and forth with these arguments, so instead I am going
to share a real life experience.

I had a shop on the 47 street. We were the only engraving shop who
specialized in hand engraving and were able to deliver it at
reasonable prices.

In my shop, the lowest paid engraver was making north of $25 per
hour and you could have as many hours as you can handle. We are
talking 1980th. I employed 6 people plus me and my partner. Our
electric bill was less then $50 a month. Everything was done by hand.

The competition was fierce. Some assumed that by modernizing, using
machines and etc, the work can be done even cheaper. So quite a few
players with serious money set up shops in Mexico, Honduras, and
other places. All kinds of “improvements” were tried, but they could
not deliver the goods of the same quality at my prices. Some
companies
who went with them wound up with merchandize that could be sold only
at significant discount, practically wiping out all margins.

In 1987, I closed my doors. Price became more important than quality
and I wasn’t willing to work for less. All guys, who worked for me,
went into setting and were doing exceptionally well. Once you know
how to cut metal, transition into setting is easy.

The moral of this story: in any time, there always “wonder tools”
which supposedly will make long training unnecessary and thing of the
past. As of now, I am yet to see anything which can beat practiced
hand in combination with sharp eye.

I have to make a trip, so I won’t be able to participate in further
discussions on the subject.

Leonid Surpin

And “any rotating work holder is a luxury for an engraver”. Either
you rotate the work or you yourself rotate.

And ‘hammer and graver’ is properly ‘h&c’ or hammer and chisel.

To put out these things as though they are fact is beyond careless.

KPK

The moral of this story: in any time, there always "wonder tools"
which supposedly will make long training unnecessary and thing of
the past. As of now, I am yet to see anything which can beat
practiced hand in combination with sharp eye. 

Looks like you are the only one here on Orchid who believes that
power assisted gravers are “wonder tools”. I wonder where you got the
idea that using airgravers would make long practice unnecessary? You
have to spend much time in order to become good at engraving, no
matter what tool you prefer.

To claim that the use of power assisted tools automatically means:
poor quality it will give you bad habits no practice is needed

-that is rather naive.

For example, if you are engraving scrolls in steel and want to
remove background, that can be done quite “fast and easy” but there’s
no excuse to do a sloppy job.

If someone make low quality, sloppy job, then it’s in the individuals
mind. It’s not about the tools you use. Wonderful, top quality work
has been made with the use of power assisted tools. All you have to
do is look that way.

I’m not going to discuss THIS PARTICULAR matter -power graver vs.
traditional- with you on Orchid anymore, since I find it as useful
and interresting as listening to two people arguing over which car is
the best - Ford or Chevrolet… Leonid, (or anyone else) feel free to
send e-mail if you like.

Per

I have to say that I am EXTREMELY happy that someone else mentioned
this. I am not an engraver “per se”, but I was taught the skill by
someone that would be considered a master. Many of his pieces were
done in a static position. Often times the piece just couldn’t be
mounted on a vise or other apparatus.

The major lesson I learned from him was simple. You must learn to
control the tool. This means that pushing the graver into a static
piece of work is just as important a skill as anything else. He used
to say that if you couldn’t learn to do that, you would forever be
doing small pieces. He considered that simple. Now someone will come
in here and say that there is nothing simple about engraving a ring.
Or that its “wrong” to push the tool. I’d be willing to put any of
this gent’s “simple” pieces up against just about anything.

What he considered simple, many others considered intricate and
beautiful. His work was astounding, and he made an exceptional
living at it.

I think I’ll take his advice and continue using the technique the
situation calls for. Someday I’ll even think my work is half decent.

Frank

The moral of this story: in any time, there always "wonder tools"
which supposedly will make long training unnecessary and thing of
the past. As of now, I am yet to see anything which can beat
practiced hand in combination with sharp eye. 

uhh per!!!, you have read leonid’s message wrong, and replied with
vehemence, if you read it correctly, you would see that you are in
agreeance with him, he was being sarcastic by putting “wonder
tools” in quotation marks, and he directly says that they cannot
beat hand engraving!!

The major lesson I learned from him was simple. You must learn to
control the tool. This means that pushing the graver into a static
piece of work is just as important a skill as anything else. He
used to say that if you couldn't learn to do that, you would
forever be doing small pieces. 

I see that debate still going on.

I want to emphasize that I am talking about learning to engrave. If
experienced engraver feels that power-assisted tool has benefits, it
is an informed decision. I do not see reason for using it, but that
is
personal choice. Irrespective of what experienced engravers do,
beginners must learn on standard carbon steel gravers.

Size of the work is the red herring. If you do large pieces, there
are turn tables for that. Even if you do large pieces only
occasionally, turning can be done successfully on sandbag. Training
is
the key.

Now let’s understand why pushing graver is an absolute no-no.
Regardless of one’s skills, regardless of quality of gravers,
regardless of anything else, there is always a possibility that point
of graver could break off. When that happens, graver slips and if you
lucky, it would leave 2 inch open wound in you left hand ( if you are
right handed ). If you unlucky, it would leave a scar in the metal
surface, which you may or may not be able to hide. Even if you could
manage to repair one slip, more than one accident would definitely
cause you to start all over again.

But what do you do if it is not just a metal plate, but a silver
chalice or any other article where many hours of work been invested
prior to engraving. Engraving is the last step in item manufacturing.
Even polishing is done before engraver begins !

The only way to avoid it is to turn the work and not to push the
tool.

Power assisted gravers eliminating this concern. That is there main
attraction, but do not grab the power-assisted graver yet !

You will never develop required speed to succeed as commercial
engraver if you learn on power-assisted graves.

2/3 of time required to complete engraving project is spent on
layout, transferring a design, and keeping design visible while
engraving. That is if technique of turning work was not learnt.
Engraver would transfer the design and slavishly proceed cutting it.

If engraver learns properly, there is no need for all that. Learning
to engrave is to learn to divide the design into groups of arcs. An
arc is defined by simply changing the speed of rotation of work and
the angle of wrist. By changing these 2 parameters, an engraver can
produce an endless variety of lines comprised of different arcs,
which form the design. One exception is straight lines, but we have
cutting technique for it as well. This is process is very similar to
calligraphy.

Once technique is mastered, there is no need for detailed drawing.
Marking out center and few additional lines is all that required. An
engraver dynamically translates a design into engraving form.

This has two major benefits. The translation will be different
depending on the metal. In engraving circles, this difference is much
appreciated. Another is speed. Eliminating need for design transfer
is greatly speeds up the process and gives it individuality, which is
lacking otherwise.

Leonid Surpin

Leonid Surpin Many thanks for the great essay on engraving. This is
a fantastic reason why Orchid has it’s mentoring program. Just where
else would you find such a topic of detailed
explanations…just…on…engraving…FREE!

During my own learning curve so many years/decades ago, I too spent
so many weeks just learning how to hold the wooden ball and graver in
the palm of my hand. I wrestled with control and exercised with the
brain and hand motions, both are so-o symbiotic.This means one has to
train the brain, eyes and fingers to master every forward cutting
that is to occur.

When I am engraving today, I plan in detail every motion and
subsequent future engraving step. A finely sharpened graver will
execute the finest cutting, it just cuts across the metal at a depth
only you can “feel”.

Yes, you must judge the depth of each cut ahead of time… The
power-graver does not give you this option. Basically, it is a series
of very minor forward cuts. If anyone sees how and intricately cut of
the metal so may decades ago, you see how beautiful each series of
cuts were administered…by hand!

Leonid suggested that to engrave a curve, we do two things. There is
a slight forward action with the right hand, slight turning of the
graver to the left, and again the turning right of the left
hand…if you are “right-handed”!!!..both hands culminating in a
joining in a gentle invisible ARC.

It is somewhat difficult to cut a long forward pressure cut. This
hand cutting “depth” diminishes as the forward cut increases. To
continue a bright-cutting line at the same depth, a series of
shortened series of cuts is the only way to ensure a continual
properly executed exacting “bright-cut”. This is no mean feat, only
practice over the years will this evolve.

I will say, do not feel that the air-driven graver cut will avoid
these many years of learning. After these years will you develop the
hand skill and THEN will you feel that you could use this air-driven
machine in certain areas of cutting.

One of the many skills to be learned is to figure out the proper
shape of the Onglette graver. Not only must you grind the graver
point to your wanting, but to eliminate the burning or heating up of
the graver point. This simple bench-grinder process took me about 6
months, or 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month to master. Notso fun!

Paper polishing on the side of the graver is another skill or
maneuvers…this alone is another series of Orchid essays.

Basically, a finely prepared graver will last for many forward cuts.
If the graver is not continually and accurately maintained either
any air-power driven or a plain hand graver will not give you the
satisfaction you so need…Gerry Lewy!

Dear all Orchidians of any skill level…:slight_smile:

Both hand-engraving and diamond setting are synonymous and share the
same features in metal carving. I cannot perceive setting stones
without the full knowledge or the use of an Onglette, or Flat shaped
gravers. How so?..Let me explain this in greater detail.

  1. Imagine that you have to set a Princess stone and the “Vee” shaped
    corners are just blobs of roughly shaped metal. How is it possible to
    transform this ball of Gold/Platinum into a “Vee” shape? Well don’t
    tell me that you can only use a file, hardly! All of the delicate
    inner “VEE” shaping is now done with a Flat Graver #39 or
    #40…nothing else will suffice!

  2. Setting RBC a.k.a. “Round Brilliant Cut” diamonds. The very front
    of each claw must be made straight and with a sharp edge. Filing is
    not allowed due to the fact there will be striations on the metal’s
    surface. How about the sides of the claws where the bur leaves
    residue from the grinding of the claw seat. Only a finely tuned Flat
    #40 graver removes this metal ejecta.

  3. Channel Setting is another reason to use an Onglette Graver. Once
    the final act of setting multiple stones in a channel row, it is
    required to us an Onglette of #2 shape. It is necessary to cut the
    inner surface and this “Bright-Cut” graver will enhance the overall
    appearance. Filing does not clean this inner surface, it only
    prevents any final bright-cleaning after setting.

  4. Bezel Setting is the also on my list of uses with an Onglette
    graver. My modified setting graver is called a “Right-Sided, Onglette
    #2, Bright-Cutting Graver”. All of the cutting is done only on the
    right-side and this modification is executed primarily for Bezel
    Setting. Long before any filing or trimming is done, great hand
    engraving skill is required. You must enhance the inner bezel wall
    with a finely shaped graver that is highly polished and bright-cut
    the inner oval shape.

  5. Bead Raising I use many gravers just for this application. I have
    on my bench at least 6 versions of a basic bead-raiser. All of them
    are either an Onglette #1, and #2 and of different face-widths, and
    blade thicknesses.

In summation, anyone who feels that they can overlook the multiple
needs of gravers while setting stones is greatly mistaken. It just
isn’t so, its like driving a car but without the wheels inflated to
gain mobility.

Gerry Lewy
905 - 886 - 5961

Thanks Gerry, very impressive and informative detail.

A minor quibble, not with the accuracy of what you say; but with

Both hand-engraving and diamond setting are synonymous...

I point this out only because it may shed some light on all the
recent back and forth concerning engraving.

All the posts on engraving could be correct because each of us may be
thinking of something very different when we refer to ‘engraving’.

As a novice engraver I have been trying to sort the meaning of the
term engraving for some time. Is it simply removing metal by using a
sharpened metal tool?

A spanish gentleman who does amazing work in metal ‘engraves’ his
work using ‘strong water’ to remove metal from the piece he is
working on.

I thought that would be etching.

No matter, the reason I bring this up is that each of use may have a
very different conception of that term ‘engraving’ when we post a
comment on that topic.

KPK

Since I started this thread, I have read a good deal of informative
(sometimes argumentative - which is healthy) text on engraving. I
still have a couple of questions; actually, lots - but I’ll restrain
myself.

Can anyone out there offer really sound advice on a good
instructional DVD offering a beginning engraving tutorial? I know
that there are several, all fairly expensive. I’d like to get off on
the right foot there.

I am not all that interested (at the moment) in stone setting. I want
to be able to embellish silver pieces with straight and curved lines;
more artfully than by chasing. Is there a single graver “form” used
to perform these tasks? I am frankly confused by all of the shapes -
and when one uses which.

If I want to cut a straight line across, say, 2" of metal w/o using
air power, would it be helpful to guide the graver point with a
straight edge? Maybe I am not patient enough, but darned if I can
guide a graver along a straight line of that length w/o ending up
with something which looks like a 2 year-old’s doodle.

Boy, am I ever lost. For the first time in my short metal working
"career" I am paralyzed by not knowing where to start! (Guess I’ll go
out to the shop and murder some more copper!)

Jim

Hi Jim,

Cutting a straight, even line is definitely one of the hardest
things to do. The slightest error is visible in dim light from across
the room. I saw a show on one of the Discovery channels some time ago
about the US mint in which several engravers were cutting steel
plates used to print money. The engravers doing the borders were
leaning over the metal, holding a loupe in one hand and a push graver
in the other (no air tools, Leonid!) and they were using a
straightedge. I tried it after watching the show and found it
impossible for me to do with the tools I have. I don’t know the
shape of the gravers they were using but I suspect they had a flat
side that ran along a fairly thick straightedge, or they may not even
touch the straightedge at all. If you want to see nice engraving,
look at a dollar bill. Not only do they have to do almost perfect
engraving, they have to do it in reverse image!

My guess Jim, is that the problems you are experiencing are caused
by trying to cut too deeply. This is probably the most common error
of novice engravers. Try to just trace the line with nothing but the
very tip of the point. The curl of metal should be about the size of
a thick hair, maybe just a little thicker. That’s why it’s called a
hairline. Go deeper when you have hairlines figured out and have a
reason to. Look again at a dollar bill. Almost all of the lines are
about the same as those drawn with a super-sharp pencil. They also
have some ink run on the paper making them significantly wider than
the actual cut in the metal used to carry the ink. When they need a
wider line, they use closely spaced multiple parallel cuts.

The trick to cutting straight lines is to lock your wrist so as to
not twist (roll) the graver causing a flanged cut, making a straight
line look curved or wiggly and have wide/narrow variations. The more
flange, the wider the cut. You also must not raise or lower the
graver handle (change the pitch) at all as that will cause the graver
to cut more or less deeply, causing variations in line width; the
deeper you cut, the wider the line. The two together can look very
much like your “two year old’s doodle”, even though the center of the
line cut by the tip of the point may be pretty straight.

This is much more easily said than done, and sounds somewhat
simplistic, but maintaining a constant pitch angle of the graver tip
to the metal with no roll, controlled by a locked wrist is the only
trick to it. Well, that and a perfectly symmetrical graver point. If
your graver belly and/or face has any bias at all, straight lines
will be all but impossible to achieve until you have considerable
skill at graver control as the graver will cut more efficiently on
one side than the other. Perfectly flat metal makes it easier, too.
Lumps and contours, even small ones, make pitch control really,
really hard.

You have probably also found that you can’t see what you have just
cut and can’t judge what you’re doing until you are finished with the
line. Use the curl of metal to judge depth, width and flange. You
will see immediately if the curl starts to move left or right or
straighten out or tighten up. These are all signs that something is
changing. You can tell when you get it right because the curl of
metal will end up hitting the center of the graver face when it makes
a full circle and will be of even thickness, smooth, shiny and
perfectly round. You won’t even have to look at the line, you’ll know
in your heart it’s straight. That will be a happy day!

You might find it easier to start with circles. Use a divider to
layout concentric circles, the largest about 1 inch in diameter the
smallest about 1/16th inch diameter, about 1/32 inch apart for
hairlines, a little more separation for flange cuts. Cut the first
set with as even and thin a hairline as you can manage. Cut the next
set with a flanged cut to the outside, the third with an inside
flange. The flange is cut using a slightly twisted wrist causing one
side of the cut to be more vertical and the other side to be closer
to level. This roll angle in reality is probably only about 10
degrees. The objective of this exercise is to keep the lines as even
in width and depth as possible and the circles as close to each
other and as perfectly round as you can make them. It can take years
to perfect these exercises, but once you have them anywhere close to
down, straight lines will be much easier to master.

It is the combination of hairlines and flanged cuts that makes hand
engraving the beautiful art form that it is. It is also the
knowledge of how they interact, where and how they should be used and
control of the graver to create these components that makes it such a
difficult and time consuming skill to master. It’s similar to chess
in that the rules and moves are easy to master, the nuances in
strategy are something else all together.

Dave Phelps

(Yes that’s a website down there. Finally got it up and running, not
finished by a long shot though. Thanks to all for the encouragement)
precisionplatinumjewelry.com

Boy, am I ever lost. For the first time in my short metal working
"career" I am paralyzed by not knowing where to start! (Guess I'll
go out to the shop and murder some more copper 

I cannot offer any advice on dvd(s), but if I remember your first
post, you have a book. Just read it very carefully and try to
understand each and every sentence. You may find what you are looking
for.

You mentioned that you are using copper to practice. That may be the
root of your problems. Copper is very difficult to engrave for a
beginner. I said before that I do not like brass, but for engraving
exercises brass is the best.

Do not attempt to engrave until you master the graver preparation
and sharpening, no matter how long it will take you. If it takes you
a
month it is o.k. Even if it takes a year, it is o.k. Graver
preparation is the step that cannot be skipped! If you are impatient
to start, pay to somebody to do it for you, but practice to do it
yourself as well. And read and re-read your book. It has everything
you need.

Leonid Surpin

Jim, either find someone who knows to show you how to sharpen a
graver. or take a class. A properly sharpened graver is crucial. And
what is a short heel on a graver; how short is short? There are
people who 'mirabile dictu" who can teach themselves. Maybe you’re
one.

KPK

Kevin Kelly and all Thanks for this letter, it’s amazing to hear
that folks are actually reading my series of graver notes. I though
that they were totally unread, my humbled mistake.

The “strong water” is etching, but I was referring to basically a
metal Onglette shaped blade doing the actual sculpturing into the
precious metal. “Water-etching” didn’t even enter my mind. I have
learned that water under extreme pressure can cut threw inches thick
of steel. This is beyond the realm of engraving for ornamental
purposes.

Many years ago I once worked at jewellery factory where their
ring/pendant designs were having “diamonds set in wax” then gold
casted. I was one of a few setters who had the ability in re-cutting
the designs with an Onglette graver. This was for the sole purpose of
redefining the intricate design around the gemstones and diamonds.
The owner felt that the “Bright-Cutting” was far more acceptable than
just a simple, poorly defined line.

Even in my line of “casino-jewellery”, I spent many additional hours
of “Bright-Cutting” for all the curves in metal to emphasize each
stone. The brighter cut metal is almost like a mirror and this
reflects all light around each stone. Hence the true name of
"Bright-Cutting", nothing else comes close to this process in “metal
enhancement”. Believe me, no polishing wheel process can come this
close. Also to attain this high level of cutting, this is no easy
task. In properly executed bright-cutting, there are simply no
striations seen even under a 50 power microscope.

Please excuse my long essays, as you probably know by now this is my
passion in setting.

Gerry!

Kevin Kelly and all Thanks for this letter, it's amazing to hear
that folks are actually reading my series of graver notes. I though
that they were totally unread, my humbled mistake. 

Gerry, you know what you’re doing so you’re of those people whose
posts I always read.

My point about the spanish gentleman was that he considered what he
is doing to be ‘engraving’ while I would call it etching. I don’t
care to determine which of us is ‘correct’ just to point out the
discrepancy of nomenclature.

KPK

first you have to know how to sharpen the tool. This everything,
without it you will go nowhere because the tool will not cut NO
MATTER what you do. You can learn to sharpen by hand, I still do, I
can sharpen my chisel in short order, never felt the need for a
machine. Best reference is McKenzies beginning engraving. It will
solve many mysterys.

mtlctr

about the US mint in which several engravers were cutting steel
plates used to print money. 

There was a huge coin-and-money show nearby to us a few years ago,
and they had a couple of plates on display - real printing plates
from the US MInt.

Old $100 bills, as I remember, mounted so you could see both sides.
They were quite a sight, and a lesson in engraving just to look at.
Me, I’m a hack engraver, don’t pretend to be otherwise - these were
just incredible…

Nice website, David, BTW…