Actually, I just set up a shop yesterday and listed a pair of
earrings just to see what would happen (My shop is covebeads). Etsy
says certain things can be listed if they are not handmade, but they
have to be labeled either “supplies” or “vintage”. Everything else is
supposed to be handmade. You can report abuse directly to Etsy and
they will warn the seller (if that doesn’t work, they will eject the
seller). I appreciate the fact that you did report what you saw…as
I don’t appreciate that kind of rule-breaking…so, thanks.
This looks like another good way to “network” using the internet.
You can add an Etsy button to your own site that advertises the fact
that you sell on Etsy. You can set up a pretty cute site for yourself
on Etsy. All I paid was 20 cents to list an item…and 15 people
looked at it so far.
On the downside, there seem to be many young people listed on Etsy
who must be paying themselves practically nothing. Prices that low
just are not possible otherwise.
I’ve been selling on Etsy since September, and I am very pleased with
the sales. It’s inexpensive, easy to put things up, and they have a
big customer base who really appreciates handmade things. While I
haven’t examined everything, there is a vast variety of style and
quality, and most jewelry I’ve seen there is definitely handmade.
The jewelry category on Etsy is the biggest category and in it alone
you can see some of the faults in they what they allow. Gluing a
stone on a pre-made ring is good enough to be considered “handmade”
which is a pretty loose qualification. There are also many items that
are blatantly mass produced and resold - which is technically not
allowed. However etsy feels (not officially) that finding the
evidence that they AREN’T handmade is too difficult to remove a lot
of the offenders. Although there are several items that I have
flagged that have been removed or caused the account to be deleted.
It is something that is a sensitive issue with all of us that do have
a hand in everything we make. I still love Etsy though despite its
faults. There are an amazing amount of fantastic jewelers and artists
of all mediums. My hope is that over time, the ones that are less
handmade will be fazed out as the consumers see the difference
between a glued on stone and a hand set stone.
When I first started, it seemed like items over $50 were very
difficult to sell. It was discouraging to see the amount of $10 and
$5 earrings that were selling. Though I don’t know that the amount
of cheap jewelry being sold has gone down, the $50 - $200 items
being sold has definitely increased drastically. It all gives me the
feeling that its less about stopping the offenders than having
educated buyers.
Hope you hear back, I’d love to hear their reponse
I have a site there too. I haven’t ‘worked’ it too much, but there
are some people on there who really do well. I see it as a place to
send people who find my website and I have it on my cards I give out.
It is just another outlet for the work.
On the downside, there seem to be many young people listed on Etsy
who must be paying themselves practically nothing. Prices that low
just are not possible otherwise
Kim, I noticed the same thing. I talk to aspiring jewelry makers
(American) who want to make pieces which I know right away are
competing with Bali and East Indian makers and wonder what the hell
are they thinking? I can go to the Tucson Gem Show and see rooms
full of items like what I saw on etsy with the same pricing and
wonder how the hell are these people making any money. I think the
answer is they are not making any money but are trying to subsidise
their hobby. I have no problem with hobbyists but I think business
education is sorely lacking in this country.
I flagged those diamond rings from 47th street and sent it to etsy’s
attention showing where they were being sold commercially elsewhere.
Not only were the rings left there and the company allowed to add a
lot more, but they put the rings in their hand-selected “Gift
Guide”.
Another seller there was selling a commercial pendant - bought in
bulk - and listing it alone as jewelry. I flagged and was shocked to
see it also put in the gift guide. After flagging again, they made
her change it to a commercial supply, but still left it in the gift
guide where - unless a buyer was savvy enough to look at the "tags"
and see that it was a commercial supply, they would have assumed it
was handmade.
Etsy’s stand is as follows: If you buy a commercial chain and a
commercial pendant, and you place the two together, it is handmade.
Also, if you buy a commercially cast, mass produced supply like
charms, dip them in LoS for 10 seconds and rinse them, you may sell
them as handmade.
It is very frustrating at times, because there is no way that real
handmade can compete with this.
I noticed a few machined pieces on there too, so I'm wondering what
the definition of hand made is to them.
While they are primarily a site for handmade, when you sign up, you
indicate if you are selling handmade or manufactured.
There is also a category for suppliers. For instance, I have a little
supplier site (I’m not really done with it), it’s creativetexturetools.etsy.com
I did a search on the name of the one product I have listed, and
boom, the Etsy site came up 3rd on google, while my own site (not
really my site, but my blog) was 2nd from the last on the page.
To me, that’s reason enough to have an Etsy shop.
Then, people can go to my blog or site if they want to see more.
Also, my main site does not allow for PayPal, but Etsy does, so if
someone wants paypal or a credit card I don’t support, they can buy
through Etsy and use the card they want.
I agree there is a lot of stuff on Etsy that is priced too low.
However, that’s where the traffic is.
I have a guest post on my blog by someone with experience with Etsy
and another shop and why she chose Etsy.
Etsy is not juried, so sometimes the mass produced items get on
there. Users are supposed to “flag” items that they feel are not
handmade, providing as much documentation as possible.
As long as the item is modified by the seller, it is considered
handmade. The use of machines in the crafting doesn’t disqualify an
item. Also, if a jeweler takes a commercial ring shank & setting,
and then sets a pre-cut stone in it, it is still considered
“handmade” for Etsy purposes, because the jeweler put it together.
Some mass-produced items are allowed to be sold, as commercial
supplies or if they qualify as vintage. So I could re-sell
mass-produced earring wires as long as I make their first two tags
“supplies” and then “commercial”. Etsy admin says that it is working
on a way to separate commercial supplies and vintage from the
handmade items, by the search function.
These issues are usually re-hashed over and over again in the Etsy
forums.
Still, overall, the overwhelming majority of items on Etsy are
indeed handcrafted, by web-savvy creative people of all ages from
teens to senior citizens.
Before I registered with Etsy, I read a lot of the bumph and they
seemed to be saying that handmade also included goods that were put
together from premade parts. I quote from their site:
What items can I sell on Etsy?
You can sell anything that is handmade or, a bit more loosely
put, hand-assembled or hand-altered. For example, screen-printed
shirts are OK. A custom-built computer is OK, as long as you're
making the case and not buying prefab. Furniture is OK as long as
it's nothing mass- produced (yes, you can use power tools to
build it). If your human hands put some love into the object,
odds are you can sell it on Etsy. Reselling of handmade items is
not allowed. Please note: we do allow some non-handmade items in
the Supplies and Vintage categories; they must be tagged
appropriately. Check out the DOs and DON'Ts of Etsy (under
Selling) for detailed rules.
It still seems to be a fairly good platform for selling jewellery
though, and there are some individuals doing very well from their
Etsy stores.
Sam you are right! I have a BS in business and went back for a BFA. I
also did graduate work in business and have been asked if I would
consider teaching a business related class for the art students,
most of which are metal, glass, fiber, wood and painting. I went to
them and said that I would do it and it is a great need they said
that they are doing a reaccreditation and can’t fit a business class
in the curriculum and still meet NASAD and the requirements for
graduation. Seems like a cop out because what do those graduates end
up doing? Going another 3 years for a MFA?.and what for? If they had
basic business training then they could at least know where to start.
It is just a mess.
Etsy has been fantastic for us (nicholasandfelice.etsy.com), but we
don’t do fine jewelry. It is more a venue for crafty stuff, than
fine jewelry. That isn’t to say fine jewelry doesn’t sell there, just
that it’s main focus isn’t that “professional”. It is part of the
“new” DIY movement, so you get people not charging enough, all making
stuff from findings from the craft store, etc. But we all had to
start someplace.
The listings that seem to not be handmade bug me, although I tend to
ignore most of it as it’s the same at craft fairs and on the
interweb/real life in general. (There is one shop that sells carved
druzy rings that either has figured out how to mass produce lapidary
work in the US incredibly fast, or is lying, but Etsy says they’re
kosher, so…I had to let it go, mentally).
Etsy has also allowed me to put experimental pieces up and quickly
determine whether I should go into production - as a testbed it is
excellent. I have been more creative in the last year than the
decade previous, simply because of the quick feedback loop and the
chance to sell odd stuff. I try and do geeky jewelry, and keep
pushing the envelope of nerdiness. I don’t know where else I’d sell a
pair of stamped “Schwa” earrings, local craft shows are not the best
place for that sort of stuff. Etsy hasn’t let me down yet. Felice has
been working on all sorts of big wire jewelry, and again Etsy is
great for that.
I have had to learn business in the trenches after apprenticing to my
dad for learning my craft. It has almost killed the whole dream on
more than one occasion. I think one of the main problems with start
ups is quitting too early but what can you do when it is not paying
the bills? I have had apprentices come to me, even after being around
me for months, with ideas for making and selling their jewelry. I
usually reverse engineer their idea to find out their costs then show
them the competition. The query is usually dropped right then,If it
is not then they have to look for ways to market the pieces that
separates them from the competition and or cut costs. If they are
stubborn like me then they go ahead anyway.
So, on the one hand lots of ideas would never be tried if I knew
business to see if they are really good ideas and on the other hand
it’s hard to keep morale up when bills can’t be paid. Maybe a true
good idea has built in good business? Nah, I’m not ready to concede
that. Teaching business in art school sounds like a good idea but it
might also kill off great potential before it has a chance to grow.
For me I would like to have had the education.
Etsy can define handmade anyway it wants, but once a seller uses
handmade in advertising or hallmarking they have to follow FTC
guideline even if they aren’t very often enforced.
I wonder if Etsy can ever be held responsible for FTC violations of
their members? The supreme court seems to have given Ebay a pass for
criminal activity on their site, but now we’d be talking about a
statutory violation that the government agency can levy fines for.
It's frustrating at times, because there is no way that real
handmade can compete with this
Yes there is. Make something that doesn’t look anything like what is
out there already. People are always saying things to me like “it
doesn’t have to be perfect” “don’t be too hard on yourself” oh and
the worst one yet…“'if it doesn’t come out just right, put it on
sale and have a ‘seconds’ table” The customer doesn’t give me money
for trying, they give me money for the ones that come out perfect.
It has to be new, it has to be unique, and it has to be made by
me…that’s what they want. And I’m only just starting. I began
making things when my son was 6 months old and now he is 9. I have
been accepted to 2 premier New England shows this year and I have
tried for at least 4 years to make it in. I’m one of the finalists
for this year’s Saul Bell Award (Swarovski crystal category) but,
believe me, I have had many competition entries sent back “dear
artist/crafts person” you know the rest.
It is frustrating, you are right about that, but it’s also exciting.
It’s terribly challenging, but awesome. I hate it a lot and I get
really mad when I don’t win, but I love it. It’s all I want to do.
I have no problem with hobbyists but I think business education is
sorely lacking in this country
I am, by no means, a seasoned veteran in jewelry or anything, but I
think, in the beginning, there may be a long (for me about 4 years)
period of time where the maker of jewelry just doesn’t “get
it”…Some would no doubt say I still don’t get it. I remember
saying things like “but what about my art?” “I don’t want to make
lots of one thing, I’m an artist…my brain doesn’t work like that”
“I can’t cost things out, it’s just too many beads and I have no time
left to be creative” At some point, earlier or later, it clicks.
Making jewelry is creative, making money is creative, counting beads
and coming up with a system of pricing is creative. It’s all
creative. It’s true that there is a dire need for solid business
training in the jewelry education field, but it’s quite possible that
the people just starting out still wouldn’t get it, even if it was
directly taught to them. It’s something that comes with time and
experience.
In Etsy, there are a lot of creative young people, full of energy.
It’s a very inspiring and exciting site in that respect. For those
who are breaking the rules on it…I say they should be ousted…or
maybe Etsy people should start another site just for them. I think
we are underestimating the consumer a little here as well. Surely,
the buyer can tell that these items are not handmade. I think those
who cannot tell might be the “Home Shopping Network” kind of customer
and I don’t really attract that kind of customer anyway.
I see that so often, I do a lot of shows and one of the things that
I enjoy doing is seedbead work. Seedbeaders are probably the worst
offenders of underpricing themselves. Their material cost is very
low, so they end up with prices that are priced way below anything
that I do. For many years, my boothmate, marked everything up, 3
times material cost. Somehow, she didn’t think that she could charge
for her labor (since your labor isn’t deductable). I’m still trying
to get her prices up. At least we don’t have any $3.50 earrings, any
more. By the way, she had raised the price on that style from $1.50.
In the meantime, all the new ones she made had St. Sil. wires and
headpins. She still has some of the surgical steel wire ones and she
doesn’t want to raise the price on those. My suggestion is to bag
those and at shows where we need a ‘bargain bin’, put them out then.
Cairenn, the Howling Artist www.howlingartist.com
One is only as small as one’s heart.
I’m pretty vehement about some business coursework for those who
anticipate entering the entertainment field (including professional
athletics). These people will all be essentially self-employed.
There should be no problem with accreditation if the Dept. offers a
list of “recommended but not required coursework.” Not uncommon, and
at least gives serious students food for thought.
Judy in Kansas, where it’s a far cry from the balmy 70 degree temps
in Tucson.
For many years, my boothmate, marked everything up, 3 times
material cost. Somehow, she didn't think that she could charge for
her labor (since your labor isn't deductable).
I don’t know what " labor is not deductable" even means. The
formulas for pricing I have been using and have studied are 5 times
material cost PLUS labor, that is fair to the producer and consumer.
Otherwise the producer gets nothing for their labor and how can
anyone survive with out charging for what they sell? Labor is sold
just like material and needs compensation. In fact labor is what
makes the material I buy into anything but sheet and wire, if the
consumer could make what I make they wouldn’t be a customer for me.
The rational for a multiplyer of 5 is to cover shipping costs, and
the costs associated with finding suppliers as well as paying for
overhead. It costs money to have a booth, for instance, and there is
also a lost opportunity cost for producing or selling anything, the
question there is, would my money make me more money doing something
else? If a savings account is making 5% then I would be foolish
putting my money anywhere that won’t make at least 5%. The break even
formula is so important and underused. Having said all that, I am an
artist who regularly is foolish in the name of creating my art, what
I love but, I also do it with eyes wide open to the larger business
world.
Beaders face a larger competition but also have a larger market but
that market is looking not so much for artists but for price and
color. So there seems to be a built in sealing for beading prices,
in my opinion, they are competing with overseas producers ( I live
and work in the US) who can beat US labor prices every time and
maybe materials costs too, although they still have to ship to the
US. I have watched the handmade bead market all but dry up in the US
Southwest, it is just too costly to make sterling beads by hand here
in the US.
I think that as soon as esty is discovered by import businesses it
will be taken over. If I were an import business I would make me
look like a small time US producer and start up on etsy and any
other place that low priced crafts are being sold.
You are right. There is no substitute for working in the trenches. I
am a big believer of that. I got my first job working as a maker at
Margaret Ellis in 1993 after taking workshops in how to work metals
by one of her other designers. She liked my work and hired me. That
was the best thing that could have happened to me. The ability to
create work well and do it everyday on schedule is the reason I can
make enough to pay the bills today. I went back to school in 2003 to
get the BFA because I thought I needed to add to my design
capabilities.and the school was relatively nearby.
I believe the mix of my previous career in the high end retail
sector, working for another jewelry designer, coupled with the study
of design and metal aesthetics is the only way I am able to run a
studio today. I used to feel like I did it all backwards in building
my career, but thanks to this site and all the different career
paths described here I know I have nothing to worry about. We all
carve our winding paths because we love what we do with bits of
metal and rocks. )
