Why cant i use the multiple orifice w disposable tanks?

Jewelry Discussion
12

Hi,

so… i think this is multi faceted…when talking about rosebuds…

flame type/ function:
based on what i read on paige etsy listing, in terms of function, the rosebud style tips are designed for broad soft flame (heating/ annealing), versus a sharper concentrated flame (melting)…

i also read somewhere else about little torches their and gas flow/ pressure

screenshot from above post:

IMG_4774
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(paige also makes a melting tip)

tank type:
based on what i have read, the disposable oxygen tanks are not recommended with rosebud tips due to tank construction/ gas flow/ tank pressure type stuff…

so, perhaps this is a case of both “should not” as well as “do not”…

julie

13

I was interested to see that Paige doesn’t recommend their rosebud tips for casting…I didn’t know that. I thought the reason they didn’t recommend using the rosebud with disposable oxygen was that the rosebud requires a lot of oxygen and you might run out in the middle of something…I thought the same was true of (possibly (?)) casting with the rosebud and a disposable propane tank. If you don’t start with a full tank, you could run out during a cast, before the metal was melted, superheated a bit and poured. But I hope we’ll hear from Paige directly about this. -royjohn

14

I’m sorry! I should have clarified!

I use the Smith Little Torch (the original one, not the Paige version) with a disposable propane tank and a non-disposable oxygen tank.

For the disposable propane tank I use the small Smith Little Torch disposable propane tank regulator. I use an oxygen tank that’s about size of acetylene “B”, (I think it’s a 40 cu ft?) and pair it with a two-stage oxygen welding regulator. I don’t have any problems using the Little Torch rosebud tip with that set up.

Many years ago, the folks at Otto Frei recommended that set up to me and I’ve stay with it ever since. Otto Frei explained that propane (and acetylene) are liquified gases and that oxygen is a compressed gas. They explained that I’d go through numerous disposable oxygen tanks before I’d go through one disposable propane tank. They said that in the long run, that I’d save money because the disposable oxygen tanks are expensive and don’t last long under heavy use. That has proven true for me. I don’t know how long my disposable propane tanks last exactly, but I know that each one lasts for quite a long time.

Again, with my set up. I don’t have any problems with the Smith Little Torch rosebud tip. I can anneal, melt and solder.

With Little Torch rosebud tip, you use more oxygen and oxygen pressure than with the other Little Torch tips. Even if the rosebud tip did work, you’d go through way more disposable oxygen tanks than disposable propane tanks.

I’ve never used the Paige Little Torch version, so I can’t speak for that torch.

Which torch did you purchase? The original Smith Little Torch or the Paige Little Torch? I’m not sure which one you purchased after reading all the comments?

I hope that helps explain things! Let us know how things play out for you.

Jeff

15

Any way you could get me a pic of your set up. Man im feeling disappointed in all the new stuff i bought, my smiths set up, my kiln choice, my orion welder. I thought i read so much, but now im struggling with all being what i needed.

16

Hi,
i am not certain, but i “think” you can trade up orion welder models if you find you need additional options…

here are a few comments based on my experience…

re jumprings, i test first… i try to get max penetration thru jumpring, before i start to get deformation of the round ring shape…ie: adjust energy/ length, etc up until it is too much…then back it down a bit…if that makes sense…

i am not sure which model/ settings are on your welder, so i cannot give examples…but it can be a seesaw, balancing act of increasing one while decreasing others, and depending on what mode you are using…

re thicker ring shank type objects, i file away a V groove, to create a thinner bridge that will be easier to get penetration thru (ie less than 1mm), and then use welder to add metal into the groove gap opening…

in my layman’s terms, the welded portion will be porous…due to it heating and cooling super fast

i choose soldering, if possible, for seams, and larger operations, etc…for their molecular structure, strength, smoother end result, etc…if i weld, i end up chasing depressions, etc to smooth out…

i use welder for more for smaller wire/ components, and heat sensitive situations

julie

2 Likes
17

Hi,

here is a link to some good information why Paige rosebud is not recommended for melting

julie

1 Like
18

Ordinarily, taking a picture of my torch set up would be no big deal, but I had to bring my oxygen tank into town, so my personal studio Little Torch set up is disconnected right now.

(I have a second torch that I also use and that’s what’s in my personal studio right now. Otto Frei calls it the EZ Torch. Other companies call it the Orca Torch. It’s an atmospheric propane torch. Not as fancy as the Little Torch, but I’ve grown to like its cooler, softer flame. I like both torches.)

You mentioned using Rio Grande.

Here’s that parts and stock numbers from Rio Grande. I didn’t include the Little Torch as you already have that. Also I put in a both dual stage and single stage oxygen regulators. Dual stage regulators are smoother and need less adjustment, but single stage is way less money. Both will do the job. Don’t forget flash back arrestors (I think you already have those.)

Smith Dual-Stage Oxygen Regulator - Item No. 500121
Smith Single-Stage Oxygen Regulator - Item No. 500127

Smith Non-Gauge Regulator for Disposable Propane-MAPP Tank - No. 500093
Oxygen Tank Item - No. 500050

Finally, I’m a big believer in contacting the tech support team from wherever you bought the tools from if you have questions or issues. If you bought the tools from Rio Grande, they have an entire tech support division with very talented and patient folks who can help you with your questions about their tools.

Jeff

1 Like
19

disposable oxygen tanks hold only 40 grams of oxygen… see a previous thread on this topic. it becomes cost prohibitive to use them…they are pressurized to around 100 psi and lose their pressure quickly. each tank contains about 0.8 cubic feet of oxygen. The pressure in the disposable bottle drops very quickly as it’s used… the constant rapid pressure drop would stymie a regulator…at over $15 per bottle, it takes 40 disposable bottles of oxygen to burn one disposable bottle of propane. melting takes a lot of oxygen, than soldering. If you use oxygen regularly, you would come out way ahead by using an oxygen concentrator or buying (not renting) a 100 or 200 cubic foot oxygen bottle from a local welding store… it does require a two stage regulator…I have an oxyacetylene set, but it can be adapted to propane by resetting the regulator and flow valves…

3 Likes
20

“at over $15 per bottle, it takes 40 disposable bottles of oxygen to burn one disposable bottle of propane.”

I knew it was a lot of extra cash to use disposable oxygen tanks, but I had no idea that it was that much! Thank for sharing. That’s important info!!

Jeff

1 Like
21

by disposable bottles I’m referring to the Bernzomatic disposable bottles that are the same size that the disposable propane bottles come in… I don’t know if there are cheaper ones… Steve

22

Small propane tanks, especially those that are a small diameter probably don’t have enough liquid propane exposed to boil off into gas to keep up with a tip. This may be why Paige recommends against using these tips on smaller tanks. I use the shorter, larger diameter, camp stove tanks with my Meco and larger Paige tips and they seem to work fine. I use an EZ Torch from Otto Frei, also on a camp stove cylinder, for annealing. It works great. The flame is larger and bushier making it easy to get the whole piece up to annealing temperature quickly…Rob

23

Yes, we’re talking about the same tanks. I just looked them up at Ace Hardware (that was the first place that I found them). The Bernzomatic disposable oxygen tank has 1.4 oz of oxygen. The same size Bernzomatic propane tank says it has 14.1 oz of propane. Interesting - Thanks for doing the calculations!!

Jeff

24

I use the 16 oz camp stove propane tanks too. I sometimes get them on sale at the end of the summer for $2 each!

Jeff

25

I just paid $12 for 2. They were a lot cheaper several years ago but, for me, they last up to 3 months of everyday use…Rob

26

Have a look at my YouTube video Disposable Oxygen Bottles for an Oxy Propane Jewellery Torch. - YouTube
where I do a demo and explain the science behind the 40 tanks of oxygen to one tank of propane.
Milt

3 Likes
27

propane lasts a long time… I’ve done virtually everything suing propane air… using oxyacetylene or oxypropane works fast for melting and gives superheat for a good pour when using an ingot mold.
I looked up the price of disposable oxygen bottles and it’s $15 at Ace Hardware… too expensive… takes too much oxygen to do anything with such a small supply… 1.4 ounces is just shy of 40 grams…one mole of O2 takes up 0.8 cubic feet at sea level pressure and room temperature… 40 grams is around 36 grams… very little oxygen in a disposable bottle… correct me if I’m wrong, Milt… Steve

28

sorry for the error … 32 grams is about a mole of oxygen…40 grams isn’t much more than a mole…

29

the cheapest way to by propane is in refillable gas grill bottles that hold 20lbs. With adapters and a single stage regulator I’ve hooked them up to a full sized oxyacetylene torch for melting. for jewelry purposes, it would last almost forever, but you can still use them on your gas grill…

30

Steve , yes, one mole of any gas has a volume of 22.4 l or about 0.8 ft3 at room temp and pressure One mole of oxygen weighs 32 grams. But we are talking too much chemistry here. In my u tube video, i eliminate the need for chemistry by actually weighing the amount of propane that you burn with a full disposable oxygen cylinder…
Milt

31

thanks Milt, I loved that video… buying disposable oxygen bottles cost too much. I never used more than a propane air Bernzomatic to fabricate and solder. Oxygen and gas does help melting. I think you did a good job in pointing out how much oxygen it takes to burn a gas…I do have a question for you. I’ve used the old MAPP gas, propadiene/methylacetylene that came in the same kind of bottle that propane did and screwed into the propane air torches that Bernzomatic made. I did not find that MAPP/air burned much hotter than just propane/air. If it did, it wasn’t worth the cost. Why would that be the case? Theoretically it should burn much hotter…Steve