Ehy cant i use the Smith® Little Torch™ Propane and Oxygen Multiple-Orifice Melting Tip for Propane or Natural Gas with the disposable tanks? How am i going to anneal or melt now?
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Hi,
Try giving Paige Tools a call, they can explain how you can use the disposable tanks…Paige also has rosebud and melting tips…and they can tell you about theirs as well…i have smith and paige…
julie
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I’m not sure what the problem is here? I use the Smith Little Torch rosebud tip with disposable propane tanks all of the time and have never had a problem. It’s probably something minor. These kind of issues are harder to resolve with written words and not actually seeing what you’re doing. Do you have any jeweler friends in your area to show what’s going on?
Jeff
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Hi,
i should have clarified that someone at Paige Tools explained to me about using the rosebuds and disposable tanks.
i just cannot recall the exact explanatiin and so refer you to them…
julie
So sorry, i was about to buy one and it says on riogrande that you shouldnt ise them w disposable tanks.
Apparently they can be used w smiths, just not w disposable tanks.
Hi,
ah…i stand corrected! thank you. I will research more and re-visit my set-up. I will call Paige Tools again…
julie
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Hi,
so sorry for any incorrect comments.
julie
I will tell you what I learned during my previous searches. The problem is not that they will not work, as in have the flame burning or work for a while. But…each tip requires a specific pressure in order to burn correctly. Having a lower than recommended pressure in the rosebud could result in having the tip melt or experience a flashback which is dangerous. (You need a certain pressure to have the gases burn outside the tip, not partially inside it)
There might be a workaround to this. If you are using the disposable tank with a “regular” regulator, the one where you can set the pressure, not with a preset one.
Be cautious, it might work but it is not recommended. You never know when that once in a while failure will happen.
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Hi,
i think i confused myself regarding the original post…?
i took multiple orifice to mean a rosebud style tip…but Paige does call their standard torch tips “multi- port…
…not sure which the OP meant…
i see that both rio and otto frei listings state that the smith rosebud is not for use with disposable “fuel” tanks…i am going to call smith/ millerwelds and clarify…
paige listing states that the paige rosebud is not for use with disposable oxygen tanks, but ok for use with disposable propane tanks…
see below etsy listing for paige rosebud
and screenshots of item description
as far as their standard tips (multi-port) the item description does not mention disposable tanks
julie
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Hi,
Regarding the smith rosebud tip:
on the Smith/ MillerWeld website, they state that the rosebud is not for use with disposable oxygen, but do not mention a prohibition regarding disposable propane…
screenshot from above link
julie
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Hi,
so… i think this is multi faceted…when talking about rosebuds…
flame type/ function:
based on what i read on paige etsy listing, in terms of function, the rosebud style tips are designed for broad soft flame (heating/ annealing), versus a sharper concentrated flame (melting)…
i also read somewhere else about little torches their and gas flow/ pressure
screenshot from above post:
(paige also makes a melting tip)
tank type:
based on what i have read, the disposable oxygen tanks are not recommended with rosebud tips due to tank construction/ gas flow/ tank pressure type stuff…
so, perhaps this is a case of both “should not” as well as “do not”…
julie
I was interested to see that Paige doesn’t recommend their rosebud tips for casting…I didn’t know that. I thought the reason they didn’t recommend using the rosebud with disposable oxygen was that the rosebud requires a lot of oxygen and you might run out in the middle of something…I thought the same was true of (possibly (?)) casting with the rosebud and a disposable propane tank. If you don’t start with a full tank, you could run out during a cast, before the metal was melted, superheated a bit and poured. But I hope we’ll hear from Paige directly about this. -royjohn
I’m sorry! I should have clarified!
I use the Smith Little Torch (the original one, not the Paige version) with a disposable propane tank and a non-disposable oxygen tank.
For the disposable propane tank I use the small Smith Little Torch disposable propane tank regulator. I use an oxygen tank that’s about size of acetylene “B”, (I think it’s a 40 cu ft?) and pair it with a two-stage oxygen welding regulator. I don’t have any problems using the Little Torch rosebud tip with that set up.
Many years ago, the folks at Otto Frei recommended that set up to me and I’ve stay with it ever since. Otto Frei explained that propane (and acetylene) are liquified gases and that oxygen is a compressed gas. They explained that I’d go through numerous disposable oxygen tanks before I’d go through one disposable propane tank. They said that in the long run, that I’d save money because the disposable oxygen tanks are expensive and don’t last long under heavy use. That has proven true for me. I don’t know how long my disposable propane tanks last exactly, but I know that each one lasts for quite a long time.
Again, with my set up. I don’t have any problems with the Smith Little Torch rosebud tip. I can anneal, melt and solder.
With Little Torch rosebud tip, you use more oxygen and oxygen pressure than with the other Little Torch tips. Even if the rosebud tip did work, you’d go through way more disposable oxygen tanks than disposable propane tanks.
I’ve never used the Paige Little Torch version, so I can’t speak for that torch.
Which torch did you purchase? The original Smith Little Torch or the Paige Little Torch? I’m not sure which one you purchased after reading all the comments?
I hope that helps explain things! Let us know how things play out for you.
Jeff
Any way you could get me a pic of your set up. Man im feeling disappointed in all the new stuff i bought, my smiths set up, my kiln choice, my orion welder. I thought i read so much, but now im struggling with all being what i needed.
Hi,
i am not certain, but i “think” you can trade up orion welder models if you find you need additional options…
here are a few comments based on my experience…
re jumprings, i test first… i try to get max penetration thru jumpring, before i start to get deformation of the round ring shape…ie: adjust energy/ length, etc up until it is too much…then back it down a bit…if that makes sense…
i am not sure which model/ settings are on your welder, so i cannot give examples…but it can be a seesaw, balancing act of increasing one while decreasing others, and depending on what mode you are using…
re thicker ring shank type objects, i file away a V groove, to create a thinner bridge that will be easier to get penetration thru (ie less than 1mm), and then use welder to add metal into the groove gap opening…
in my layman’s terms, the welded portion will be porous…due to it heating and cooling super fast
i choose soldering, if possible, for seams, and larger operations, etc…for their molecular structure, strength, smoother end result, etc…if i weld, i end up chasing depressions, etc to smooth out…
i use welder for more for smaller wire/ components, and heat sensitive situations
julie
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Hi,
here is a link to some good information why Paige rosebud is not recommended for melting
julie
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Ordinarily, taking a picture of my torch set up would be no big deal, but I had to bring my oxygen tank into town, so my personal studio Little Torch set up is disconnected right now.
(I have a second torch that I also use and that’s what’s in my personal studio right now. Otto Frei calls it the EZ Torch. Other companies call it the Orca Torch. It’s an atmospheric propane torch. Not as fancy as the Little Torch, but I’ve grown to like its cooler, softer flame. I like both torches.)
You mentioned using Rio Grande.
Here’s that parts and stock numbers from Rio Grande. I didn’t include the Little Torch as you already have that. Also I put in a both dual stage and single stage oxygen regulators. Dual stage regulators are smoother and need less adjustment, but single stage is way less money. Both will do the job. Don’t forget flash back arrestors (I think you already have those.)
Smith Dual-Stage Oxygen Regulator - Item No. 500121
Smith Single-Stage Oxygen Regulator - Item No. 500127
Smith Non-Gauge Regulator for Disposable Propane-MAPP Tank - No. 500093
Oxygen Tank Item - No. 500050
Finally, I’m a big believer in contacting the tech support team from wherever you bought the tools from if you have questions or issues. If you bought the tools from Rio Grande, they have an entire tech support division with very talented and patient folks who can help you with your questions about their tools.
Jeff
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disposable oxygen tanks hold only 40 grams of oxygen… see a previous thread on this topic. it becomes cost prohibitive to use them…they are pressurized to around 100 psi and lose their pressure quickly. each tank contains about 0.8 cubic feet of oxygen. The pressure in the disposable bottle drops very quickly as it’s used… the constant rapid pressure drop would stymie a regulator…at over $15 per bottle, it takes 40 disposable bottles of oxygen to burn one disposable bottle of propane. melting takes a lot of oxygen, than soldering. If you use oxygen regularly, you would come out way ahead by using an oxygen concentrator or buying (not renting) a 100 or 200 cubic foot oxygen bottle from a local welding store… it does require a two stage regulator…I have an oxyacetylene set, but it can be adapted to propane by resetting the regulator and flow valves…
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“at over $15 per bottle, it takes 40 disposable bottles of oxygen to burn one disposable bottle of propane.”
I knew it was a lot of extra cash to use disposable oxygen tanks, but I had no idea that it was that much! Thank for sharing. That’s important info!!
Jeff
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