Why CAD is it needed in our classes?

Jewelry Discussion
41

Hi Leonid,

Jewellery should not be scary. in your opinion.

There’s a market for scary, and the beautifully grotesques, it
depends entirely on the customer. Those customers will ask for
cockroaches, spiders, and even scorpions. I haven’t seen a praying
mantis, but I reckon a fully articulated mantis that wraps to form a
necklace would be considered awesome, by anyone. regardless of how it
was made.

I’ve seen software that gives a photo geometry, some of it is good,
some of it is poor. Taking a scan of something is one thing, but
creating something from nothing is something entirely different.

CAD is just a tool, and as with any tool, if you have more
experience with it you can do more.

A saw is just a tool, but I hazard to speculate that you would be
able to use your saw better than me because you have more experience.

Same goes for CAD, it’s just a tool.

Regards Charles A.

42 
why is a scorpion any less "artistic" than a starfish?

Its not. Scorpions have been rendered in precious metals for
centuries. Some examples:

Romans. …

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuq

David Webb:

Here’s one by Tiffany. …not so shabby.

And these are just from recent auctions from one auction house.
There are hundreds more available to see online.

And LOOK! Here’s actually a well executed CAD scorpion! So. . not
just a drawing contest after all.

So yes Leonid. Scorpions are every bit as valid in jewelry form as a
butterfly, a bee, a beetle or a snake. We’ve neeeeever seen those
forms in jewelry now have we? I believe that a large part of making
beautiful objects is having the ability to transform the ordinary
into the sublime.

-Lisa (Trying to keep warm with a nice fire in the wood stove in
chilly Southern CA. Glad I’m not back east. Take care out there you
guys!) Topanga, CA USA

43

Hi Christopher,

Thank you for chiming in, it’s always good to hear from a
professional in any field, it’s very much appreciated.

Could we see some of your work, I’m very interested to see what you
are creating :slight_smile:

Kindest regards Charles A.

44

Hi Elliot,

I have a friend that uses road kill to make very interesting pieces,
not my cup of tea, but he does have a market.

You can obtain models off the net, like this one :-

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuv

You’d use this as a base and could modify it into a very interesting
piece. I like to start from scratch, then the work is 100% my own.

Why would you do this instead of using a real creature in
investment? Some people like the idea of not killing anything
(regardless of if it was dead already). I’m not fussy myself, but I
will pander to my customers wishes :wink:

Regards Charles A.

45 
Show me the jewellery modeled in CAD which possess gorgeous,
natural curves.

Here’s a curve in CAD. By Kenneth Johnson. I have seen his work in
person, very beautiful, very curved.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuu

-Lisa (Trying to be polite. 'Tis the season after all) Topanga, CA USA

46 
The point of demonstrating that you can make elegant curves and
produce artistry, by showing fine examples, can be extrapolated in
that those models can be easily transferred into wax. If you can
make those models in wax you can pretty much do anything with CAD.

I do not want to extrapolate or imagine anything. I want to see
examples of that wonderful, artistic jewellery that you talking
about.

Leonid Surpin

47 
Leonid, why is a scorpion any less "artistic" than a starfish?
Also, I don't see what gemstones have to do with whether good
design can be done in CAD.

Go to my blog http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuw and take a look
at Sea Monster. The design is by Donald Claflin, who worked for
Tiffany & Co 1966 - 1977. Goldsmithing was done at Tiffany’s shop.
This piece can teach a lot about what jewellery should be.

The piece is expressly anthropomorphic. There is nothing menacing
about it, and at the same time facial expression is " are you
kidding, you can’t take my treasure " Body curves very powerfully
sending message “do not come any closer”, but message is friendly and
humorous. Body is set in pave all over. Setting is very skillfully
representing scales. There is nothing scaly about it, but just a
suggestion. The level of abstraction is just right. Interpretation
of the dorsal fin is ingenious. The same setting technique, but
slightly modified. Two stone segmentation once again supplies just
enough abstraction to convey the message. I can probably complain
that tail is a bit unfinished, and ruby hanging from the chin
introduces slight haberdashery undertones, but no jewellery is
perfect. Besides, Claflin work is peppered with such details. He
probably wanted to reminds us that jewellery should be taken
seriously, but not too much. Kind of teaspoon of tar in barrel of
honey approach. Only his tar does not spoil the barrel, but just adds
interest.

There is much more that could be said about this piece, but I leave
it as a home work. If anybody can point to work done in CAD of
similar stature, I will forfeit the argument.

Leonid Surpin

48 
A much better point would be made if you did a CAD CAM of a piece
that Lenoid makes by fabrication. Perhaps you cannot do that?

Seriously does anyone have a side view of Leonid’s ring? CIA

49 
Words are cheap! Show me the jewellery modeled in CAD which
possess gorgeous, natural curves.

I could not agree with you more, Leonid. So. Let’s see some examples
of the superior caliber of work that you so vigorously evangelize.
Examples of work from your hands. From your studio. Examples that we
do not have to pay to see. I would like to see examples other than
the Ballerina Ring, the Eternity Band or the Coronet Cluster.

50 
Jewellery should not be scary, it should work with wearer
complimenting wearer appearance. Scorpion from that point of view
is only acceptable as Halloween decoration.

This is specious. By this argument, you would dismiss all the
fabulous jewelry that has snakes, wasps, bees, spiders, wolves, etc.
Lalique made some spectacular pieces with such subjects.

Sounds like a thin excuse.

Noel

51

This thread has become a pissing contest. Look up Ubaldo Vitali’s
work and see what is being LOST. Art, passion, feeling. Oh, yeah, art
can be done with CAD CAM.

If anyone has seen The Next List featuring Ubaldo Vitali, his
attitude is concurrent with what Lenoid has been trying to point out.
I don’t tjhink anyone is going to counter what Ubaldo Vitali said in
the video if they have any common sense.

Noel and Andy, when will you back up words of support for the
relevance of a scorpion produced by CAD CAD, (which looks clunky to
me) with jewelry or sculpture produced by CAD CAM. I see the FEELING
in both of your work, CAD CAM just does not do it for me.

If people are going to compare a CAD CAM scorpion with Lenoid’s
work, pardon me while I throw up. Both are valid, the scorpion is
hardly a fabulous piece. …I have seen real scorpions burned out and
cast, so why the CAD CAM?

Redundant, mundane. That is what CAM CAM has brought to our
goldsmith/silversmith art.

Richard Hart G. G.
Denver, Co.

52 
Go to my blog http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuw and take a
look at Sea Monster. The design is by Donald Claflin, who worked
for Tiffany & Co 1966 - 1977. Goldsmithing was done at Tiffany's
shop. This piece can teach a lot about what jewellery should be.

Interesting. To my eye, this is an example of what jewelry too often
is, and I want no part of it. Cartoonish features, made “precious” by
being clad all over with stones. Quite possibly it is very skillfully
executed, but I literally cannot stand to look at such baubles.

I did say I am opinionated and hate pave’.

Fortunately, there is room in the world for a huge variety of
people, of work, of opinions.

Now, give me pieces by Lalique to look at, and I’m a happy camper.
Or many, many others, including folks on this forum.

But please, no pave’.
Noel

53

Where I live there are many scorpions. Sorry they don’t look like
that, close but no cigar. I can beat your time and detail all I need
is a dead scorpion. For one invest and burn out. For more silicon
mould for waxes. Casting 101!

Just googled CAD jewellery not exciting same old same old designs
made with modern technology. CAD does not seem to be able to produce
the inherent asymmetry of hand made jewellery. No matter the
accuracy hand made is always asymmetrical. The human brain likes
asymmetry and so does nature.

Can you make reticulated pieces with CAD? I would like to see it.

I believe it may possible to make interesting pieces with CAD. It is
just no one can afford the equipment to produce it. I was visited a
friend, an aeronautical engineer at his work. His machines can cut a
human hair into 14 slices length ways. So any CAD designers out there
with $10 million dollars worth of machinery to make the master? I
guess this is part of the problem.

How much is a name worth? Tiffany having financial worries. No
surprise. Sterling Peace sign charm $125 cost to make $5. On an
sterling 18" chain another $50 chain worth $5.

Total price $175 total cost $10, profit $165 dollars.

Only the nouveau riche would pay such outlandish prices for a
standard item. Old money families would never contemplate such
frivolity, that is why it is Old money.

Overpriced or what?

Nothing interesting on their web site.

Solitaire diamond (.05 carat) bezel set pendant copyright Elsa
Perreti, who are they kidding? LOL

This is why I hand make and most pieces use reticulated metal, each
piece is unique. In this mass produced world customers like one of a
kind pieces. Guess that is why I have very little stock left and will
start this year with 10 hour days.

On the recent posts on how to reticulate, way too time consuming.
Just get a piece of sterling and use your torch. But most of you
would have the wrong torches to reticulate.

It is sad but the old skills are dying and CAD will hasten their
extinction. Also many of the public do not understand the basic
jewellery terms such as silversmith. It comes as a surprise for them
to learn that silversmiths work gold as well. This is English
terminology the old English word is steorling. Royal warrants are
issued to those who supply both silver and gold yet the companies are
called silversmiths such as Hardy Brothers “By appointment to her
majesty the queen silversmiths.”

So bring on all the mass produced CAD crap you can it will only make
the hand making jewellers more money! Revolution des CAD, c’est des
conneries!

Richard

54

Just to show Leonid, as he wants to see a finshed piece made from
CAD.

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Vasken

55

Saying all CAD/CAM jewelry is crap is like saying all painting is
crap because you are looking at a paint by number exhibition or one
of those “Art” sales at the local Holiday Inn.

CAD/CAM is a tool, many(most?) people use it poorly but that does
not make all work done with it crap. How many bad engravers have you
seen? is all engraving crap?

Yes I recoil at seeing so much bad work being done with the built in
tools that come with Matrix or the other jewelry CAD packages or
directly in any number of CAD packages, yes I see way too much work
done with grow lines from the RP machine faithfully reproduced in
metal and not cleaned up. But this is all about a new medium with
poorly trained users. It is not an inherent aspect of CAD/CAM.

There is a tremendous amount of jewelry being produced from CAD
models and CAM masters that you would never know was produced that
way because the people doing it know what they are doing.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

56 
I could not agree with you more, Leonid. So. Let's see some
examples of the superior caliber of work that you so vigorously
evangelize. Examples of work from your hands. From your studio.
Examples that we do not have to pay to see. I would like to see
examples other than the Ballerina Ring, the Eternity Band or the
Coronet Cluster.

You seems to be well acquainted with my work, but you want more and
more. Sorry, can’t help you there. You must control your cravings.

Leonid Surpin

57 
There is much more that could be said about this piece, but I
leave it as a home work. If anybody can point to work done in CAD
of similar stature, I will forfeit the argument.

3D character design does produce very cute and lovable creatures,
and sure they aren’t jewellery, but they could be, that’s how
versatile CAD software can be. I’m sure someone will find you
something.

Leonid, it’s not about winning or losing an argument, it about
understanding that CAD is a versatile tool.

Regards Charles A.

58 
This is specious. By this argument, you would dismiss all the
fabulous jewelry that has snakes, wasps, bees, spiders, wolves,
etc.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Let me just ask one question. Do you understand scorpion symbolism?
If you do and still want to use it, it is one story. But if you do
not, you would better find out.

Leonid Surpin

59 
This is a perfect example of what CAD can't do, I am wondering if
all the artists who do granulation are going to chime in on this.
It won't be long until the definition of granulation changes and
this piece will be called fine curvy pendant with granulation.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuu

I think this thread has become a contest to prove Leonid wrong, we
have gone over this many times. If you look back at the original post
years ago the basic argument was that cad cannot duplicate fine
handmade pieces. The cad is heavier and lacks the fine qualities of a
handmade piece. I have yet to see anything that proves me wrong. CAD
has its place and someday might be able to duplicate a fine handmade
piece but not yet from what I have seen. Someone said they could make
a piece at 10 times less cost. What about the $20,000.00 investment
to buy the equipment etc, etc, etc. And the time wasted learning the
program.

While you spent a year learning I spent that time on my bench making
money. There have been threads about making you own tools to save
money, rolling your own stock, CAD, building you own spring ring so
it can be called handmade by you. There needs to be a thread to teach
what time is worth. I spend about 30 minutes a day on my computer, I
check orchid, my sailing websites and maybe look for new artists.
Thats it, time is money. When we as jewelry artist are off the bench
we are losing money or losing valuable time perfecting our skills. So
big deal you can build a piece on the computer that looks nice if you
can’t finish it out.

Bill Wismar

60 
Can you make reticulated pieces with CAD? I would like to see it.

You could simulate reticulation (just apply a bump map), but would
you really need to. I put some reticulation on some shibuishi leaves
that I shaped by hand (see I’m not above getting my hands dirty :-p).

I’ve never tried to reticulate a thin casting, and have no idea if
it could be done? If it could be done, then you’d cast up the thin
sections, and apply enough heat.

I believe it may possible to make interesting pieces with CAD. It
is just no one can afford the equipment to produce it. I was
visited a friend, an aeronautical engineer at his work. His
machines can cut a human hair into 14 slices length ways. So any
CAD designers out there with $10 million dollars worth of machinery
to make the master? I guess this is part of the problem.

The tools are expensive at the moment, but technology becomes
cheaper and more powerful as the years advance.

You don’t need to own all the equipment or software either. You can
rent software these days, and you can send your files to a printing
house.

It is sad but the old skills are dying and CAD will hasten their
extinction.

Sad but true, although there will be some that will still use the
old methods. I being one, but I’ll use the new methods too, why?
Because lasers are fun ;-))

Also many of the public do not understand the basic jewellery
terms such as silversmith.

They don’t need to know what a silversmith is, all they need to know
is where do I go to buy my jewellery.

So bring on all the mass produced CAD crap you can it will only
make the hand making jewellers more money! Revolution des CAD,
c'est des conneries!

You naughty boy :smiley:

CAO est ici pour rester alors sucer mes couilles !

Regards Charles A.