Why CAD is it needed in our classes?

Hi Leonid,

CAD has improved greatly, curves are no longer a problem and
artistry can be achieved :-

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zuc
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zud
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zue

I’d say those curves were pretty nice :wink:

I had a look at the hearts, but I don’t have a comparison to make a
judgement, so I’ll take your word.

The designs do seem clunky, and could be made finer, again it’s only
my opinion. I reckon that the CAD could be re-worked to produce a
more elegant piece.

CAD cannot produce it. It is like asking someone to carve a grain
of rice with woodsman axe. 

CAD is just a tool that requires practice to use well, it’s true CAD
cannot produce fine jewellery, but neither can a hammer by itself,
it requires a skilled craftsman to make good use of it. With a
skilled operator using CAD fine jewellery can be achieved.

The problem with CAD is that the skill sets need to be improved, and
this is what institutions are attempting. I see a lot of the larger
companies seeing the value of CAD and simply throwing their
designers in the deep end.

There is money in using CAD so it will improve. It can only get
better, like any tool.

Regards Charles A.

I will tell you what Leonid if I produce a scorpion in CAD better
than you can hand make it or carve in wax, will you believe it can be
done without all this diatribe you are laying out here?

I will tell you what Leonid if I produce a scorpion in CAD better
than you can hand make it or carve in wax, will you believe it can
be done without all this diatribe you are laying out here? 

An interesting suggestion, but let me answer your question first. The
answer is no. Scorpion is not the object possessing artistic
qualities. Making a scorpion in CAD proves nothing. Scorpion does not
have inherent beauty. Proportions can be easily change without
suffering any adverse effect. It was a nice try, but no cigar. You
see, I have been CAD user for many years. I wrote my own CAD in 1977,
in assembler. I am well aware of the tricks to impress neophytes.

Let’s do the real challenge if you want to prove CAD artistry. I
offer you a simpler object than scorpion. Make a starfish. Use
gemstones and whatever you want, but it must be not a realistic
starfish, but article of jewellery with starfish attributes. I am
talking about abstraction, using gemstones as vehicles of
abstraction. And when you finish, I will show a picture of such
jewellery designed only with paper and pencil and made by traditional
fabrication methods.

Leonid Surpin

Leonid,

Now that I’m home, and can actually type.

CAD programs can produce any curve you can draw, to whatever
resolution you want. Rhino started out as a program for hydrodynamic
modeling of ship hulls. It’s hard to keep it from doing curves. The
weakness is not the program, it’s the programmers.

People are lazy. Most of the programs make regular, platonic solids
easy. So that’s what the beginners gravitate to: platonic solids, or
platonic solids melted together. But that isn’t the fault of the
program, it’s human nature. You know the old joke about ‘to a man
with a hammer, everything looks like a nail’? Same problem.

The answer is better training, and more experience.

Besides, regardless of any of our opinions or desires, CAD is here,
and it will be the major part of the low end market moving forward.
The only real question is how far up the beach of the higher end
that tide will roll. Arguing about it is roughly akin to standing on
a beach, and arguing about the tide. We’d be better served to build
a boat.

Regards,
Brian

We confront the future of cad and wax printing. Our duty as hand
fabricators is to educate the cad designers and the wax printers
into the finer points of hand fabrication.

Cad and wax printing can produce a ring mount at 10x less cost than
a hand fabricator, and provide preliminary 3D photo images before
the work begins.

Cad designers find it hard to comprehend the process of hand
fabrication. They produce a casting at the final dimensions not
realizing that the final dimensions are achieved at the end and not
the beginning. Cad designs must pass through the hands of humans
long after the cast is made.

Definately learn your cad in class, but don’t neglect the hand
processes. Cad can do it provided you know the roots, the art, and
see ‘painting-by-numbers’ for what it is.

Alastair

CAD is just a tool that requires practice to use well, it's true
CAD cannot produce fine jewellery, but neither can a hammer by
itself, it requires a skilled craftsman to make good use of it.
With a skilled operator using CAD fine jewellery can be achieved. 

I looked at your links. I do not see how they relate to the subject
of CAD as instrument in jewellery design. I can easily make a
technical argument why CAD can never achieve true artistry, but I am
in no mood for that. Why don’t you tell me where can I go to see
these CAD masterpieces. If practice is the only problem, there have
to be some work supporting these assertions. Please use better
judgement in your examples. I want to see jewellery, no scarecrow
models.

Leonid Surpin

I will tell you what Leonid if I produce a scorpion in CAD better
than you can hand make it or carve in wax, will you believe it can
be done without all this diatribe you are laying out here? 

We’ve gone down this road before with a CAD vs hand made challenge.
If anyone has a side view of the original brief, I’ll finish it, I’ve
learned enough to give it a decent go.

Regards Charles A.

They're making cast crap because they can't make anything else now. 

No arguments here.

Leonid Surpin

Scorpion, I am still waiting on the eternity band to be made. I even
offered to give someone the gold and diamonds to make it and no
takers. But, I would love to see a scorpion made with CAD and to
also have the total time it took. Personally I think all schools
should teach CAD and all stores should start using it. It would
create a salary boost for good old fashioned jewelers. Digital
watches were going to ruin the watch business, no more watchmakers
and no good watches. A good watchmaker can name his price and there
are fine timepieces still made. The only problem I see with CAD is
that it is going to lower the standards of quality in the industry.

Bill Wismar

Well Leonid, as I suspected a little tough for you. but alas 2 hours
in and here is your Scorpion. not artistic. I beg to differ. you
can’t do it.

Crack it out there Leonid. …

Russ,

Well Leonid, as I suspected a little tough for you. but alas 2
hours in and here is your Scorpion. not artistic. I beg to differ.
you can't do it.

A much better point would be made if you did a CAD CAM of a piece
that Lenoid makes by fabrication. Perhaps you cannot do that?

Richard Hart G. G.
Denver, Co.

Well Leonid, as I suspected a little tough for you. but alas 2
hours in and here is your Scorpion. not artistic. I beg to differ.
you can't do it. 

Jewellery should not be scary, it should work with wearer
complimenting wearer appearance. Scorpion from that point of view is
only acceptable as Halloween decoration. Scorpion is a menacing bug.
So naturally it evokes emotional response and biological response.
Some confuse these feelings for artistic awe.

As far as modeling it in CAD, I have software on my machine, which
allows me to create CAD model out of common photographs. All I need
to do is to obtain child’s toy, take a few pictures from different
angles and we got CAD model, which can be manipulated in many
different way. It is simple trickery and has nothing to do with
creative process. If the nature of your challenge is hocus-pocus
show, than count me out. If you really want to prove something, than
read my previous post again.

Leonid Surpin

As a newB to metalsmithing and jewelry, and as a CAD designer in
another field 20 years worth, I think it is time to chime in.

My purpose for metalsmithing is to learn the hand crafted methods in
jewelry for later sculpture. I am doing so for my enjoyment, as I do
not believe everything should be a production item. (usually
disappointed by things that are)

This post is intended for those who resist CAD;

the problems that many of you note with CAD work is true. However,
your ire is misdirected. CAD is not the problem. CAD is a solution
for certain markets and pipelines, but not all markets and not all
pipelines. (pipelines will bend to their markets)

CAD designers, True, are sometimes the problem. learning the
mechanics of software tools does not teach design. Especially when
getting a result is so easy. Learning things by hand teaches patience
that CAD will probably never do. Still not the tools fault.

Another issue that can come to play is expectations of the higher
powers, all too often management looks like computers and therefore
CAD as magic. they are under a false impression that computers do the
work (all of the work, including design efforts) computers and
software are surprising, but I am not sure this will ever really
happen. When management drives a designer to produce, often steering
the design/production the pipeline is also devalued. A trend that is
not going to go away.

CAD is not magic, and it still takes time and effort to design well.
CAD is here to stay, it is however up to the designer to make good
use of it and drive it or to be driven by it. Tools will even
improve, not to say that mass production skills will get better. CAD
is not a fad, just look at other industries where it is. Auto bodies
used to be all hand designed in clay, now it is CAD/CAM sometimes
with hand finishing and detailing, but even that is going away.

Again, I am new to Jewelry making and have a lot to learn. For it,
for now, I am going to avoid CAD/CAM because it is too easy for me
to slide into habit and not build new skills.

The Future, it is probably best for designers to consider a mixed
approach. there are some forms that are very difficult to achieve by
hand, and there are forms that are difficult for a machine to build.
Use both if you can, you will be better off.

Cheers,
Christopher Lund
Neurascenic - industrial design

It seems to me that the simplest way to get a model of a realistic
scorpion is to buy one from a biological supply house, invest it and
burn it out. Should cast pretty clean. At burnout temperatures
there’d be nothing left but a fine ash to be blown out of the flask
with a metal straw.

The father of an old school chum spent some time with an American
Indian jeweller in the 30s. A client wanted a silver frog
paperweight. He caught a frog, pithed it, invested it, burnt it out
over a charcoal fire over a period of hours and cast it in a swing
rig using old silver dollars for metal. Came out beautifully, to hear
him tell it. Even down to the texture of the frog’s skin.

Elliot Nesterman

Does it count when the scorpion is only an image? It’s a nice image,
a little lacking in detail in the body, I think, and with hairs on
the extremities that would not work in metal. It is not lacking in
curves and balance. But for the challenge to really be judged, the
piece(s) must actually be created, IMO. Otherwise, it is a drawing
contest, not a jewelry contest, no?

Leonid, why is a scorpion any less “artistic” than a starfish? Also,
I don’t see what gemstones have to do with whether good design can be
done in CAD. In my personal opinion, all kinds of garbage is clad all
over in gems as though pave’ will make it into something special. But
then, I am opinionated, and I really hate pave’. I love stones, but
like most things in life, it’s all in how it’s done.

I would love to see true, finished jewelry that is the end product
of this challenge, ideally in the same, agreed-upon size.

Noel

CAD is just a tool that requires practice to use well, it's true
CAD cannot produce fine jewellery, but neither can a hammer by
itself, it requires a skilled craftsman to make good use of it.
With a skilled operator using CAD fine jewellery can be achieved. I
looked at your links. I do not see how they relate to the subject
of CAD as instrument in jewellery design. 

You said CAD could not do curves well, or that it was not able to do
it with any artistry.

The point of demonstrating that you can make elegant curves and
produce artistry, by showing fine examples, can be extrapolated in
that those models can be easily transferred into wax. If you can make
those models in wax you can pretty much do anything with CAD.

Why don't you tell me where can I go to see these CAD
masterpieces. Fair comment :- 

This is a pretty good example of what CAD is capable of, has the
curves, it’s a fine design, it looks pretty nice, it’s consistent and
precise. I wouldn’t say this was a masterpiece, but I would say that
it’s a nice ring.

The following one requires a little imagination, as the printing
process let this model down. If it was done on a rapid prototyping
wax printer the resolution would have been far superior. So you will
have to dare to dream a little :wink:

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zul

I’ll look for other pieces and display them as I find them.

If practice is the only problem, there have to be some work
supporting these assertions. Please use better judgement in your
examples. 

I made the assumption that you could use a little vision to see that
the skill behind those images could be translated into our craft,
fear not, I wont make that mistake again.

I saw some very elegant designs made in the CAD component of the
trade course I just completed. I’ll see if I can get some scans for
you.

Regards Charles A.

CAD programs can produce any curve you can draw, to whatever
resolution you want. Rhino started out as a program for
hydrodynamic modeling of ship hulls. It's hard to *keep* it from
doing curves. The weakness is not the program, it's the
programmers. 

Words are cheap! Show me the jewellery modeled in CAD which possess
gorgeous, natural curves.

Leonid Surpin

Good one Russ!
Well done!

Sam

Actually Richard I have done several of these in pieces which snap
together after casting. So, I think better or harder, if you will,
are the free form art objects, simply because they are open to total
subjectivity. A piece which is done by pierce sawing, filing and
fitting, pre-polish, laser or soldered and set the stones has its
appeal of course. If I wanted to take the time his fabrication piece
could be done. as well as he could do the Scorpion if he wanted to
take the time. Truly, I don’t think cad is for everything, it is a
tool to an end. I do have a problem with people saying that the cad
is catering to the low end market and will be set in stone there.

Sorry, but I have been making very high end art pieces that would
sell in the high end markets anywhere.

Cheers to the New Year Richard.
Russ

Hi Leonid,

Unfortunately, the only things I’m doing in Rhino at the moment
really do look like truck parts: structural mounts for the Knew
Concepts power saw. I’m making them much nicer and more organic than
the original, hand milled parts, but they’re still pretty blocky.
(Because they need to be.)

The jewelry I’m working on are riffs on 6-7th century Anglo-Saxon
cloisonn=e garnet work. Again, not exactly organic. At a micro
scale, the draping of the gold foil at the bottom of the cloisons
will be nice and curvy, but on a scale measured in microns. (I’m
curious to see how well the output process can translate microscale
structures, so I’m including some probably un-obtainable
just to see how far it’ll go.) When I get those models
done, I’ll cheerfully send you a rendering. (Why 7th century garnet
work? Because I like it, and that’s what the client wants. If the
next guy wants flying dolphins, we’ll get nice curvy flying
dolphins. But in the meantime, we do garnet cloisonn=e.)

Regards,
Brian.

PS–> One advantage that I’ve found for CAD work is the ability to
test how pieces with multiple parts interact with each other. This
doesn’t come up quite so much in most jewelry, but being able to see
where screw heads interact with other parts of an assembly has saved
my bacon a couple of times so far. Or being able to see that if I
roll the powersaw frame over (X) degrees to the left, there’ll be a
problem with a handle whacking into part (Y) unless I fix it before
I build it has been most helpful.