When your work gets ripped

Jewelry Discussion
23

You bring up the point about publications. This a point I am trying
to decide about. I am thinking about a web site to be able not so
much count on drawing “hordes” lol, in from the internet but so that
my customers can see what I have as my art/juried craft shows, are
far inbetween. I do wirework plus, and it is competitive. I have
come up with some new bracelets that I have not seen out "there"
yet. So I figure maybe ride the wave of customers until someone gets
a similiar idea and then put them on the website. I mean you see
these people at juried shows going around and getting ideas but I
would like to known for them, for a least a little while.

Terri

24 
I appreciate the fact that you spend endless hours designing but
does anyone here truly have a original design?

Well, yes! There is much that is offensive in this post, but let’s
start with this. Some of us do have original designs, and if
someone copies them and does well, maybe it is because they market
better, but that is irrelevant. They are not entitled to use designs
they have not paid for. Period.

It is also offensive to write as though all of us are just rehashing
the same forms, then pretending to have done something new and
protectable, like the example of a band ring.

This isn't about protecting your creative genius and love for the
art, you don't really care evolving your own art through
experience. This is about money.

You write this as if it were an “Aha!” moment. Sure it’s about the
money! Duh! Making money and wanting to “evolve your art” are not
mutually exclusive. I get very angry when people talk (or write) as
though artists are not supposed to care about money! In no other
field would anyone expect that there should not be rewards
commensurate with skill and creativity. When someone steals what you
have written, it is plagiarism, and the stealing writer is roundly
condemned. Same in music. Why should we be any different?

If someone steals my idea and is more successful with it than I
am, good for them, as an artist I think the more important thing is
my idea is being used and im proud its my idea.

Oh, give me a break! This kind of attitude is self-defeating, and
feeds straight into this asinine notion that our art should be
enough, we don’t need recognition, and we don’t need to feed and
clothe our children! Gee, I think my lawyer should just be happy
when justice is done, and if he thinks up a defense for my crime, he
should just be happy his idea is being used, but he, oddly, expects
to be paid. My doctor should just be happy people are well… but if
he discovers a new drug, he isn’t just happy his idea is being used,
he expects to get paid for that discovery. In this country (the US)
and many others, there is the concept of intellectual property, and
there is no reason on earth that artists should be an exception.
Give away your ideas all you want, but stop perpetuating the “ghetto
of ideas” that keeps the rest of us from being able to profit as
much as possible from what we create.

Noel

25 
My next question to everyone is hypothetical. Poke fun if you
must, but I would appreciate some serious answers. Do you think the
inventor's decendants of the first ring deserves royalties from
all of us? Keep in mind bending metal around ones finger at the
time was extremely cutting edge and this was an expression of
his/her art.

That copyright has expired…LOL!! Good points, though. As I’ve
said in two posts on this thread, though, my experience wasn’t
someone who was derivative, or emulating, or inspired. It was my EXACT
piece, no mistaking it. But I’ve already expressed my thoughts about
it…

26

I’ve been reading this thread with some amusement for the last week
now. It’s not a new topic on Orchid and there will probably never be
a definitive answer about some of it. What is interesting however is
the vast amount of misthat is still out there. No matter
how many times James White says it (and he knows this information
better than anyone on this list) most of you guys just don’t get it.
The stuff about 10 or 20% different is hogwash, for example, as James
has already mentioned even in this latest thread. Additionally
copyright is imparted the moment you create something (which he has
also said at various times). Everyone writing about copyright on this
list should first read all of his postings on this subject in the
archives before saying anything else about it.

Then there’s the issue of original designs. I’ve been a jeweler for
over 35 years, and during that time I can honestly say that I have
only see about 12 “original” designs created during that period. I
mean something that is truly unique to an individual designer who
went in a completely new direction. Everything else is built on old
work. To some extent this is unavoidable. There are limitations to
what someone can physically wear on their fingers. There are
limitations to how many things you can do with a circle. There is
always going to be some overlapping and there is also more than 2000
years of jewelry work and designs that have already been done before
you make up that “new” design. Can two people make up the same design
independently of each other. Absolutely. It happens all the time.
Look at the current “fashion” of circle pins. How creative can you
possibly be with a circle in a pin? Sure you can set some stones in
it. You can add some pearls. You can put on some squiggles. But you
know something it’s still a circle pin. If David Yurman makes it
he’ll do it out of twisted wire (something the Celts did more than
1000 years ago), but it’s still just a circle. The difference is that
Yurman has huge pockets and a team of lawyers working for him and he
can sue the pants off of you if he chooses to (that, mind you, is for
copying a design he copied from people who are already dead). But if
all the “designers” decide circle pins are hot and they are going to
make them up do you really think there isn’t going to be some
overlap?

Then there’s the issue of derivative work. When I was very young I
did craft shows and there was a jeweler’s work that I admired. One of
his “techniques” was to cut out a piece of silver in the middle of a
piece of sheet for a ring and solder a different colored metal behind
the cut out and repousse it from behind so it puffed out. Neat idea.
As I found out later not entirely original (it had been done before
although I don’t know whether he had seen it or not). But I was into
making repousse/chased faces. And I realized that you could do the
same thing he was doing only do a face in it instead of just a lumpy
piece of metal. So for a few years I made rings with repousse faces
sticking up through them. Was that stealing his design? He never put
anything like a face (or any other realistic design) on his they were
just somewhat lumpy looking. Over time I went in different
directions (although I still use faces) and they aren’t in my
repertoire anymore. But the reality is that when you go back in time
far enough you see similar rings with faces. I hadn’t seen them at
the time. So was my idea original because I hadn’t seen it before?
Was it original if I borrowed a technique? Frankly, I don’t care as I
agree with the comments that claim most work is derivative in some
way.

For those of you who think you have an absolutely, never before
done, completely original jewelry design, I first would urge you to
research thoroughly the entire history of jewelry and see if anything
like it has been done before. Then let me know and I’ll add you to my
incredibly short list of designers who have actually come up with
“original” designs.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

28 
Then let me know and I'll add you to my incredibly short list of
designers who have actually come up with "original" designs.

So Daniel, who’s on the list - I’d love to know…

29 
most of you guys just don't get it. The stuff about 10 or 20%
different is hogwash, for example, as James has already mentioned
even in this latest thread.

Hmmm…I got my info in 1992, from a lawyer I consulted that
specialized in copywrite law. And to think I paid him…He did
point out that at least in my case, it wasn’t worth taking to court.
I did manage to get a billboard with the copies plastered all over
it pulled by Needless Markup, with a nice little cease and desist
letter from a nice big law firm though. Again…1992. Good thing they
didn’t know anything in those days. Of course in 2002, I was unable
to get a vendor pulled from a show who publicly admitted to copying
that exact same ring of mine, and who was showing it directly across
from me in her booth. My how times have changed…Oh…I did
stop making the cursed ring a few years ago.

And… as for not seeing, “absolutely, never before done,
completely original jewelry design”…Ai yi yi Dan…You really do
have to get out more. I see something amazing and original on some
level at most of the high end fine crafts shows that I participate
in.

There have been beautiful original things in the past. There will be
beautiful original things in the future. Otherwise…why exactly
are any of us bothering? There are easier ways to make a buck.

Cheers,

Lisa, (Up late messing with the dang website. No website in 1992
either. I miss 1992), Topanga, CA USA

30

Noel,

Well said.

I think it is a shame that Artists in general and Jewelry Artists in
particular should be expected to work for nothing and just stand
still when someone else copies their work.

Greg DeMark
www.demarkjewelry.com

31 
For those of you who think you have an absolutely, never before
done, completely original jewelry design, I first would urge you
to research thoroughly the entire history of jewelry and see if
anything like it has been done before. Then let me know and I'll
add you to my incredibly short list of designers who have actually
come up with "original" designs.

OK, Daniel, you tell me-- am I kidding myself that my work is
original? If I am deluding myself, it is time to wake up and smell
the coffee. Here is a link to my Orchid gallery pages:

http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/noel.htm

On the other hand, I’m not claiming that no one has done landscapes
or interiors in jewelry before… I guess it is a question of how
high you set the threshold of invention. How new is new enough?

I may be a starry-eyed optimist, or woefully undereducated, but I
think there is a lot of new work being done all the time-- though we
all stand on the shoulders of giants.

Noel

32 
Then there's the issue of original designs. I've been a jeweler for
over 35 years, and during that time I can honestly say that I have
only see about 12 "original" designs created during that period. I
mean something that is truly unique to an individual designer who
went in a completely new direction.

Ooh Daniel that’s too tempting,

Can you tell us what the 12 original designs were - not that we want
to copy but I’m so curious about what you would choose.

And maybe we should start a new thread 'my favourite piece of
jewellery", here is a link to the piece of jewellery that made me
decide that I wanted to design jewellery
http://gallery.beardcommunity.com/fine_art/canning_jewel (I saw a
poster of it in the museum and just realised “that is what I want to
do”).

alison
in Melbourne
www.alialexander.com.au

33

Noel,

As you’ll recall I have seen your work in person when you came to my
store. It was very nice work. But over the years I have seen a lot of
stuff with a similar bent to it. I’m not telling anyone not to follow
their muse and do whatever is “original” to you, but to expect that
after 2000+ years of jewelry being made in every part of the world,
that yours (not you in particular Noel, just a general you here) is a
completely new design is going to be awful hard to prove.

How new is new enough?

That’s just it. There have been similar ideas to yours used in
jewelry. So what does make your work so new that you can claim it’s
a completely original idea? If you read my entire post you read the
short story at the end about the repousse designs. My idea was to do
the work with faces. The other jeweler just had an interesting
technique. Was my idea original? Was his idea original? Actually to
both of us it seemed to be. But then I spent more time looking at
pictures of other stuff from the past and both the technique and
general idea had been done before. Neither one of us (well at least
I hadn’t, but he may have) had seen pictures of similar work so it
seemed like a new idea prior to doing it. But then with more research
look what pops up.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

34

Alison in Melbourne,

I knew some people were going to ask me for the list but, due to the
fact that my employee just had a baby (yesterday) and is on maternity
leave, I’m not going to have the time to go back and properly
research it all. I can tell you that the most recent work I’ve seen
that I thought could be credited in my short list was the guy who
came up with the bezel setting suspended between two posts (who’s
name I have forgotten and who’s work has already been copied
repeatedly).

However I did look at your link and it’s interesting you should have
picked out that piece because it has so many jewelry elements going
on in it that have all been used since then. You can see elements of
Art Nouveau and Deco in the work. There’s hand carved faces,
imaginative use of pearls, multiple types of stone settings
(including what looks to me like bead setting–a harbinger of pave
and all the bead set rings out there today), not to mention
enameling, imaginative use of color, gemstone carving, you name it.
It’s all there. And in the 400 years since it was made it’s all been
done over and over again in different variations by thousands of
jewelers.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

35 
And maybe we should start a new thread 'my favourite piece of
jewellery", here is a link to the piece of jewellery that made me
decide that I wanted to design jewellery

The first step in this would be to come up with a definition of
jewelry.

In any case, the first name that comes to mind for me is John Paul
Miller.

Kevin Kelly

36 
"Bad poets borrow; good poets steal." I think T. S. Eliot said
that.

I haven’t followed this thread closely, but it’s the sort of
discussion that I find fascinating.

This impulse to define one’s work as original seems fruitless. If you
make a piece that you feel in your heart is yours then it’s yours.
Why pursue the argument that it’s original. “Nothing new under the
sun” as someone said.

Kevin Kelly

37

Yes, the Canning jewel is an amazing piece of work. It is (or at
least it was a few years ago) on display in the jewelry vault in the
Victoria and Albert museum in London.

Jerry in Kodiak

38

Thanks all who replied to this thread.

In particular, thank you Craig, S.C., Susannah and everyone else who
supports the right of creative individuals to protect their work.
S.C., the precautions you suggested are useul and definately better
than taking no action and I’ve done maybe 75% of the things on that
list but I wonder what good it is as long as we have people with the
thought patterns of Geoff that figure because the Egyptians made
rings thousands of years ago it’s ok to go ahead and violate the
copyright of a contemporary artist. If anything this thread reminded
me why I never post my web address after my comments. And Geoff, I’m
sure any design theives reading appreciate your willingness to share
your catalog with them, but since Sears and Target have had their
websites up a bit longer than you I wouldn’t anticipate a massive
peak in traffic once your site goes live.

Daniel, I get what your trying to say but if out of all your years of
work you have only come across 12 unique jewelry designers then
either you have had the misfortune of being in the company of some
truly mundane designers or the human race as a whole has hit the
creative wall.

Elkka out.

39

Daniel,

As in any of the other arts, there just isn’t anything that hasn’t
already been tried, unless you’re using materials that didn’t exist
in the past. (Artists like Nam June Paik with his videos, or Chuck
Close with his airbrushed portraits, or Dan Flavin with his
"sculptures" of fluorescent light are a few examples that come to
mind). Most of the time, in jewelry you are seeing materials, metal
and stone, that have been in use for thousands of years. As you say,
a little research and there it is: your new, brilliant idea, done
originally during the Bronze Age ! Humiliating, isn’t it ? You can’t
do anything original, you can only do something slightly different.
Nothing new under the sun…

Brian Corll
Vassar Jewelers
1002 East Simpson Street
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
Tel.: (717) 691-0286

40

Daniel,

Good point…but even after 2000+ years, there are still new
inspirations. Through the CAD process I am certain that I have
discovered a completely new concept that has never been done in
history because traditional methods will not support the fabrication
of this design – stones set culet to culet in a tight array. I
invite you to prove me wrong…a bottle of your favorite
beverage rides on the bet. See attached image…

PK

41 
If anything this thread reminded me why I never post my web
address after my comments. And Geoff, I'm sure any design theives
reading appreciate your willingness to share your catalog with
them, but since Sears and Target have had their websites up a bit
longer than you I wouldn't anticipate a massive peak in traffic
once your site goes live. Daniel, I get what your trying to say
but if out of all your years of work you have only come across 12
unique jewelry designers then either you have had the misfortune of
being in the company of some truly mundane designers or the human
race as a whole has hit the creative wall.

I am with Daniel on this one. Very few “designers” have an
identifiable style that is so unique as to be not be identified with
another artist. Michael Zobel, Michael Boyd, Harold O’Connor have
signature styles, if your work looks like their work, anyone
knowledgeable can recognize the style.

I talked with a friend who was trained in Europe, and there is less
copying, it is done, but not like in America. It is the opinion of
my friend who teaches, that in America people take classes in
techniques, and in Europe design is taught.

Sad fact but true, we live in times where if you do something and
someone sees you making money at it, someone will try to duplicate
what you are doing.

Not having your web address on your post for this forum should give
you one of the most profound senses of false security I can imagine.
The danger does not lie within this forum, but out in the real
world. Most of the people on this forum would probably be the ones to
not steal from others.

I wish I could be a legend in my own mind. I have seen too many
people who are so much better than I am, I just need to be humble,
and be thankful for the gift I have, recognize my limitations, and
still have joy for the things I am successful at.

Those of us who have jewelry stores have a completely different
perspective and a different reality than those who do shows or have
work in galleries. My store is a combination of traditional and
gallery work, so I believe I have a pretty broad base of knowledge.

Of all the sites I have visited from addresses on this forum I have
seen very little that is so different in style that I could not find
something like it on another site, or in one of my jewelry books,
and I have at least 15 books, some current and some out of print, and
some historical that put things in perspective.

One last thing, there is a style that seems to come out of the
college jewelry programs, and that is a narrative style. Quite a few
of what I see of art jewelers use this style, and content may be
different, but the style makes the pieces have similarity. My opinion
is that some of Noel Yovovich’s work falls into this category.

I believe that after 30 years of studying jewelry I can post others
artists work that would be similar enough to theoretically bump ya
out of the denial that your work is so unique.

Richard Hart

42

PK,

Because your attachment was removed I can’t see what you are doing
and I’m not sure what you mean by “tight array”, but I have seen
pairs of stones set culet to culet before. Frankly, I never liked the
way it looked so in my book, it might be original, but not
particularly appealing. But then…I’m starting a new discussion on
what someone considers appealing, so let’s not go there!

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

43

I think the essential thing to understand about this whole issue is
that there are two kinds of “Unique”. If you get a ring band and
applique a wire on the surface, no one will have ever put a wire on
the surface in quite the way that you will. That is design, and that
is art. However, the process in not unique, even though the piece is.
People have been applique-ing wire on surfaces since forever. You
automatically have a copyright on your ring when you make it. You
cannot copyright or patent the process because it’s public domain.
Same with the (tongue-in-cheek, I know) copyrighting of a band ring.
You can’t copyright a circle of metal, it’s public domain, too.

http://www.donivanandmaggiora.com