Your comment leaves out one big piece of info. How many HOURS are
you figuring they'll be able to charge $85 an hour?
One thing that goes along with that is whether one is making a ‘line
of goods’ or doing repairs/custom.
A line of goods needs to be priced competitively, especially for an
emerging maker, that’s the foot in the door, because the competiton
can be fierce. The price has to be in line with the goods. I imagined
the OP was concerned about making actual sales as well as doing the
paperwork of markup on labor costs.
Service work as you teach us is trust sensitive, there’s not so much
price shopping. I can confirm your principle. Yeah, sometimes I make
that $85/hr doing work…sometimes its incredibly higher. But I can
also state that one earns that trust by producing the quality level
expected repeatedly. Somebody new…that might get iffy, little or no
goodwill. Without the trust being in place it gets harder to close
any kind of sale. It was in the context of somebody new that I framed
my remarks.
I guess my feeling is that one’s personal income demands should not
overburden the business’s actual performance. Yes, you need to take
those demands into consideration but for the health of the business
its better to improve performance over time to meet personal demand
than to expect the big payout too early.
The other concept is that you, as a jewelry maker, are entering an
existing marketplace - don't kid yourself. This piece has a market
value of $100 - wholesale or retail doesn't matter much, it's the
company's price. Of that $100, we have an allotment of $10 for
labor, because we read the above paragraph. If you can make that
piece in one hour, then you are "worth" $10/hr. If it takes you
three hours to do it, then of course you are " worth" $3.33/hr and
etc.
John makes an important point here. If you are involved with
production, and not one of a kind pieces, pricing structures are
very rigid.
At one point I was a jewellery contractor, specializing in bangle
bracelets. Most of them are hand engraved. There are some polished
and set with stones, but 90% are engraved with special technique know
as “florentine finish/bright cut”. Florentine is two sided and done
with special graver and not with the florentine bur. It is
interesting to examine the prices for such work. To an inexperienced
eye, such engraving would appear very complicated and time consuming,
but reality is very different. In 1977, 1 inch bangle ( the largest
size made ) does not matter which design, the price to engrave it was
$10, while the smallest one “baby bangle” only $0.9. Yes, it is not a
mistake. Only 90 cents to engrave it. The total labour for 5/16
bangle, and that included assembling top and bottom, installing hinge
and clasp, polishing and engraving, finishing and packaging was 10
dollars and not a penny more. With gold at 350, completed bangle was
sold under $80 and less for volume buyers. If it sounds like complete
exploitation, do not jump to conclusion. When I just started with
engraving, working whole week, 12 hours a day, I made 87 cents for
the whole week. These bangles were very thin and it was quite easy to
cut through. Repairs were out of my own pocket, so you get the idea.
In 7 months I was averaging $50 in hour. It was very good
renumeration in 1977.
Jewellery pricing is a difficult thing to understand for the
outsider. What may look like unsurmountable obstacle for a beginner,
is a walk in a part for experienced goldsmith. It is not just what
needs to be done, it is many other things like volume, conveniences,
and etc… The point I am making is that one can charge only a few
pennies per piece, but still make decent living on hourly basis. If
you are not making enough, the question must be asked and answered -
is that because you are under-charging, or your skill set needs
improvement?
But waiting for a piece to cool between solders is part of the
job. You should charge for it.
I did say “technically no”, usually I go do something else while I’m
waiting.
I imagine anyone in their right mind would, but again it seems
complicated. What happens if your customer wants a married metal
piece? Do you then average your hourly wage?
Yeah sort of. It really helps to know how long things are going to
take, and if there are problems you have to be prepared to wear
them. Eventually you get really good at estimating.
Well, like you said above, you change your hourly charge/wage
based upon the metals you're working with. If I'm sizing all these
rings and they are all different, i.e., different metals, different
stones that require different handling procedures, and beer that's
not ready to drink...well it's complicated.
Most quotes are an estimate, the more talented are those that can
set a price and meet it.
That's what I was trying to get at with my wishful thinking
remarks. Its one thing to say, "I'd like to make $X, its quite
another to actually get it, consistently.
This is where a realistic business plan becomes a useful tool.
If you do a proper business plan, and include all your expenses, and
what you’d like to earn, sometimes the business plan lets you know
that it’s not possible, to do at that time.
At this point a lot of people give up, and go work for someone else.
You can re-work your figures and become really frugal for the first
couple of years, then let the original plan come into effect when
you’re ready for it.
five jewelers working all types of benchwork, custom design, repair
etc. Some worked at least three times longer on a piece than
others.
Well, Sigi, once again what appears to be complicated really isn’t so
complicated, but I’ll get there in a sec. First it must be said that
this thread is really about principles, fundamental concepts, what
have you. “Your experience may differ”. There’s no such thing as a
one size fits all method here. And Sigi’s question gets into actual
wages, which is really something else, too. I’ve been talking more in
terms of “piecework” - what a flat rate for a piece might be, and how
that’s tied into what people make for their time. But they are
related, too…
The last actual job I had was long, long ago, but I was the 2nd
jeweler there, out of 10. There were people who could only file
castings and solder settings, and the top man was the model maker,
who also did special order when you could. I would do special order
too, as needed. So it might take me a couple of days to make a ring,
and it might take him a couple of weeks to make a similar model for
production. And then sometimes the model would have some issue and
need to be reworked… But he made considerably more per hour than
I did. He was the finest craftsman I’ve ever worked with or around,
BTW.
Seemingly mysterious… Weeks of work at higher pay? It’s because
the answer is how much money you make for the company. The model
maker was expanding the company’s line, which was what really paid
the rent to begin with. My two days on an order made $1000, his two
weeks made $50K, ultimately and hopefully.
And so it goes… It’s difficult to understand from the shop
floor, at times, but take management’s perspective - He/She seems to
be slow, but the work is three times the skill and the price is
commensurate with that…In a well run shop, that is.
Most quotes are an estimate, the more talented are those that can
set a price and meet it.
Oh don’t we all wish quotes were just estimates! No, when you quote a
price that’s the price. Even if you say its an estimate the customer
(retail or wholesale) expects that to be the price.
When I had a diamond setting workshop some years back, I was always
asked for my time to prepare and finish an expensive item. I replied
from what I learned during my formative years during my 9 years of
apprenticeship.
in my humbled opinion, it the special-ordered item is “planned” to
take 2 days+ or less to create…then all time to make/create is built
into the pricing, or final costs…not decided upon afterwards…Always
allow extra time for any unforseen time losses!!!
When weighing metal to figure its cost, remember that besides the
spot price of whatever there's also the milling fee.
Personally, I mark the total cost of each mill good on its packaging,
divided by ozt or dwt (as relevant) and also as linear measurement
for wire etc. I include the shipping- pro-rated- in this.
Amanda, I don’t have a clue what this means?!!! Is the “mill good”
the jewelry that has been hand crafted, forged, etc? Rather than
buying different elements and putting them together?
Oh don't we all wish quotes were just estimates! No, when you
quote a price that's the price. Even if you say its an estimate the
customer (retail or wholesale) expects that to be the price.
Hi Norman,
I’ll clarify that, the estimate is for us.
Imo when a customer is given a price they shouldn’t have to pay any
more.
This reminds me ( especially in our current economic climate ) of
how to evaluate an investment: safety, liquidity, yield
(interest/rise in price)…pick any two. Plug in dirt(land), stocks,
bonds, fancy intense pink diamonds or something else as an example to
check it out.
I’m jumping into the thread here with a question. When I take my
animals to the veterinarian, before they begin any treatment, I get
handed a printed quote listing tests, procedures, medications, and
services; when I give them a verbal Okay, only then do they begin
treating my pet. They are very good and thorough vets, as I am very
good and thorough as a jeweler. Listed at the bottom of every quote
sheet is the Notation: “***The actual cost may vary as much as 15.00%
above or 15.00% below the above prices.***”.
Why would it be inappropriate for jewelers to attach that notation
to our own quotes? We can run into unexpected problems during the
course of making a custom piece, even as veterinarians…or mechanics
do in their work.
Oh don't we all wish quotes were just estimates! No, when you quote
a price that's the price. Even if you say its an estimate the
customer (retail or wholesale) expects that to be the price.
Odysseus has lost his way on the voyage home from the Trojan War. He
and his hungry crew make a stop in Sicily at Mount Aetna, which is
inhabited by Cyclopes. They come upon the Satyrs and their father
Silenus, who have been separated from their god Dionysus and
enslaved by a Cyclops (named Polyphemus in the Odyssey). These
characters are not contained in the Odyssey’s version of the event.
Their addition provides much of the humor due to their cowardly and
drunken behavior.
When Odysseus arrives he meets Silenus and offers to trade wine for
food. Being a servant of Dionysus, Silenus can’t resist obtaining
the wine despite the fact that the food is not his to trade. The
Cyclops soon arrives and Silenus is quick to accuse Odysseus of
stealing the food, swearing to many gods and the Satyrs’ lives (who
are standing right beside him) that he is telling the truth. His son,
a younger and more modern Satyr, tries to tell the truth to the
Cyclops in an attempt to help Odysseus. After an argument, the
Cyclops brings Odysseus and his crew inside his cave and eats some of
them. Odysseus manages to sneak out and is stunned by what he’s
witnessed. He hatches a scheme to get the Cyclops drunk and burn out
his eye with a giant poker after he has passed out from inebriation.
The Cyclops and Silenus drink together, with Silenus attempting to
hog the wineskin for himself. When the Cyclops is drunk, he says he
is seeing gods and begins to call Silenus Ganymede (the beautiful
prince Zeus made his immortal cup bearer). The Cyclops then steals
Silenus away into his cave, with the implication that he is about do
something sexual to him. Odysseus decides to execute the next phase
of his plan. The Satyrs initially offer to help, but later chicken
out with a variety of absurd excuses when the time for action
actually comes. The annoyed Odysseus gets his crew to help instead,
and they burn out the Cyclops’ eye.
He had told the Cyclops earlier that his name was ‘Noman’ or ‘Nobody’
(Greek outis or m tis), so when the Cyclops yells out who was
responsible for blinding him, it sounds like he’s saying “No man
blinded me”. In addition to this pun, there is a less easily
translated joke on the fact that the form of “no man” (m tis) is
identical to the word for cleverness or art. The Satyrs have some fun
with him over it. Odysseus makes the mistake, however, of blurting
out his true name as a result of his big ego. Although he
successfully makes his escape, the rest of the troubles Odysseus
faces on his voyage home are related to this act, as he then faces
the wrath of Poseidon, the father of the Cyclops.
Why would it be inappropriate for jewelers to attach that notation
to our own quotes? We can run into unexpected problems during the
course of making a custom piece, even as veterinarians...or
mechanics do in their work.
When we did quotes usually IFWE ADDED A PHRASE LIKE THAT, it was
done for and the customer knew why IN ADVANCE:
“Your cost to make the ring is $xx.xx. The gold you’re buying could
be as low as $450 and could be as high as $550.”
“Diamonds around the center stone, pave set, if we furnish 20, will
be $789. If the ring takes 30, dias including setting will be $1234.”
“Your quote could be as low as $2345 and as high as $3456”
Why would it be inappropriate for jewelers to attach that notation
to our own quotes?
I once had a banker tell me that people regard jewelers in the same
way as used car salesmen. Too bad he didn’t have a crystal ball to
look at today’s world.
Certainly, if one wishes such a disclaimer…why not. Its not really
inappropriate. However, things seem to go much more smoothly when the
price is the price. I take a beating on some jobs, eh that’s life.
But by sticking with the price I never have to find myself in the
uncomfortable position of defending a higher than estimated price
AFTER the fact, ick, and in the process throwing a little doubt in
my client’s mind (as in, “gee I’m sorry, I didn’t know what an expert
like me should have known”…bad form imho) Eliminating doubt is
long term worth an occasional beating.
Why would it be inappropriate for jewelers to attach that notation
to our own quotes? We can run into unexpected problems during the
course of making a custom piece, even as veterinarians...or
mechanics do in their work.
Personally I don’t think this is inappropriate, because you’ve set a
fixed agreed upon variation, the “surprises” can be calculated.
Nothing worse than turning up with some money and finding out you
are short
Why would it be inappropriate for jewelers to attach that notation
to our own quotes? We can run into unexpected problems during the
course of making a custom piece, even as veterinarians...or
mechanics do in their work.
For those who ARE able to pay attention - it is completely normal to
give quotes on work, and it’s completely normal to hedge those
quotes as needed.
The smaller and easier the job, the more you might get locked in -
sayi= ng that you need more on a retipping or a sizing probably means
that you aren’t very competent, but saying that your platinum custom
order ran $200 over the projected weight is an entirely different
matter. That’s two ring sizes in today’s market…
It’s customary to give estimates, and the ability to give good
estimates is one of your more difficult tasks. It requires foreseeing
the future, which requires actually knowing what you are doing. We
have a price list -similar to Geller’s, I guess, but we made it up.
Sizings, tipping, repronging, setting, standard soldering - all the
things that are common tasks - so that we are all on the same page
and we don’t need to re-invent the wheel for each and every tiny
little thing. And we stick to it and make good money… But
special order and unique jobs get another treatment - don’t guess,
make the wax and then WEIGH IT. “It will be more than a thousand,
but less than two” in the beginning. Stuff like that. Being evasive
about costs isn’t just bad business, it’s considered piracy in some
circles. In the end, before any metal is expended, the customer has
a price, and that’s the price. But we don’t just guess…
As long as the customer is informed, the customer is usually happy.
If you’re in a position to know the customers budget, you can advise
them before hand if they can afford you or not.
I was once asked by a friend about making a pair of replica WWI
aviator thigh boots, I told him point blank you can’t afford it, and
that was at a mates rate. What I will do it teach him what he needs
to know to make the pair himself. When he’s finished building the
albatross I’ll start his lessons.
Why would it be inappropriate for jewelers to attach that notation
to our own quotes? I once had a banker tell me that people regard
jewelers in the same way as used car salesmen. Too bad he didn't
have a crystal ball to look at today's world.
I have found that as long as Im up front with my customer touching
on the concerns I may have and so on, that I dont have problems if it
comes in a little higher. I usually get pretty close in my
guess-ta-mations so I usually eat it on those rare occasions I miss.
I dont look at it as I lost but more I didnt make as much. Of course
if your always missing your estimates thats another story.
I have never heard that we are like used car salesman, but we have
lots of people selling jewelry. A sales person and a jeweler are two
different things. There is a lot of miss quoted to the
customer, maybe not always on purpose but more from the lack
experience. Todays customer is more knowledgeable then you may think,
thats why its so important to only quote what you know and find out
what you dont.
