Taig vs. MaxNC Mills

Bruce,

When I ordered my first Taig a few years ago I was so impressed that
I became a dealer. I am interested in your choice of Rhino software
for jewelry design. Are there any tutorials on jewelry design for
beginners that I could refer others to?

Thanks for any help.
Ed

Ed,

When I ordered my first Taig a few years ago I was so impressed
that I became a dealer. I am interested in your choice of Rhino
software for jewelry design. Are there any tutorials on jewelry
design for beginners that I could refer others to? 

I had some previous experience with AutoCAD. I took the classes that
McNeel offers through M2 Sytems. No jewelry specific programs.
Otherwise, McNeel has newsgroups that they monitor. There is an
awful lot of help there. Lots of people with all of the problems that
I have had are there to offer their help. Did I mention that McNeel
monitors it and provides help? I have posted problems and gotten
responses in minutes, sometimes. Also, there are a lot of tutorials
on McNeels website.

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Benchjeweler
Goldwerx
http://www.goldwerx.com
@Red_Rodder

I have sat back and watched this thread progress and unfold. While
there are a lot of these little mills in use, its analagous to
arguing over which car was better…the first Hundai Excel or the
first Yugo. The bottom line is that they were both primarily a
"throw away or disposable" car. Just like the Yugo or Excel would get
you places and when new would operate on a somewhat reliable basis,
so will a Taig, Maxnc, or Sherline. With any one of these small
economy mills there is a lot of maintainance and do it yourself
ability required. This translates into TIME. TIME also equals MONEY.
(Economics 101) If you are only doing a few waxes per month, they
will probablly serve you well. If you are trying to make a living
with them…DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. In the long run it is NOT a
good investment. They are great for learning on, and for getting
your feet wet. Your first car wasn’t a Cadillac, Hummer, Jaguar, or
Rolls, was it?

I was in the latter half of the first group of people who were
getting into “Jewelry” CAD about 5-6 years ago. I was the 50th
purchaser of Matrix, and already had Rhino prior to that. After
getting my feet wet with the cad I needed a cheap output device. I
went the Sherline route. I built it myself and screwed it up a few
times and rebuilt it a few times. The cheap availibility of parts
was the primary reason that I went the Sherline route. And yes I cut
some really great parts on it and it does hold a great tolerance.
Additionally there were, at the time only two other jewelry mill
alternatives. These were Modelmaster, and Mini-Tech, which at the
time, I thought were way too much money. What was different at that
time was that we were all entering the field at the same time and no
one had prior experience with milling nor was there anyone who could
teach you anything about milling. We baically learned from each
other. Most of us were on Polygon Network and then/or Jewelry
Dealer’s Network (JDN). I have been on Polygon since the first month
they went to 300 baud modems and computers versus the satellite
system they were first using. We shared and techniques on
these networks and behind the scenes at conclaves and on the
telephone. I still communicate with some of these people on a
regular basis. If something wasn’t working you could call someone up
and they could talk you through it. Once I learned, I did my time
helping others. I additionally found a machinist and paid him to
teach me machining.

Today there are turn key systems and places to teach you how to use
the mills that they are selling. Information has been written down,
videotaped, and recorded. There is a wealth of out there
today compared to the NONE that was there when I started. Even the
flashcut guys who told me what settings I needed to get my mill
working screwed it up bigtime and the first part I cut had the
letters cutting backwards because the motor was listed as the wrong
way in my setup file. I reversed the polarity in the software and
solved the problem myself.

Having endured and survived this nightmare I was faced with sucess
and the need for professional equipment. I studied long and hard and
asked a lot of questions. The Revo, Minitech, and Modelmaster mills
are all very fine products. I rejected the Minitech because at the
time it still had a Sherline motor and 4th axis. Today they have a
Mach 3 controller box/software and an NSK spindle and are a very
nice machine. I would have absolutly no problem whatsoever with the
purchase of one of their new machines. Mach 3 software is very nice
stuff. I rejecteed the Revo at that time because it was HIGHLY
software dependent. Some people subsequently had some issues with
this and they have now released an upgraded “B” mill and have
released new versions of the software and really have a fine
product. However it still is a Flashcut based software system and
controller from what I understand. There is an issue with the Z
height that is a Flashcut problem and has caused a few people some
greif. They have done some amazing things with the Revo and with the
software. It is a really nice unit, but is also one of the most
pricey units on the market. If I was doing service bureau type work I
think that I would be seriously considering the purchase of a Revo.
What I ended up buying was a Modelmaster CNC 1000. This mill is
basically an industry standard and is a rock solid piece of well
built equipment. There are a lot of thse units in use and they are
tried and true and will stand up to tough use. It is a flashcut based
controller system, but it has not give me z height isues. Modelmaster
uses their own chip…but it is still flashcut underneath the hood. I
have used it almost daily for the last 18 months without a single
problem, cutting thousands of waxes. I am very happy with it and
would gladly buy another one without hesitation.

The Sherline path and experience enabled me to understand the quality
of the Modelmaster and it’s troublefree operation. I really
appreciate that quality in the Modelmaster mill. The mill paid for
itself VERY quickly. It didn’t COST me anything as I was able to
make back the money I paid for it well within the first year that I
had it. The first mistep was a great learning experience and I did
benefit greatly by it.

Why the boring background you ask? This is primarily to
impart on those who are currently thinking about the Maxnc vs Taig
route the benefit of my experience and to give you the information
that you really should have that will enable you to make an informed
and intelligent decision as to what equipment to buy.

Now as to software. The Matrix vs ArtCam question evokes very strong
emotions. BOTH softwares are very good. Neither one of them is worth
a damn if you can’t or don’t use them, or you can’t find anyone to
help you with the program. I can think of many jobs that are easier
to do in one software vs the other one. But either software is
capable of doing both of the tasks. It just boils down to how your
mind thinks…3D vs 2 1/2 D and which one you are most comfortable
working with. I think that one of the more important questions that
you should answer before you get involved with either one of them is
WHAT IS MY SUPPORT GROUP GOING TO BE. If you know of 4 or 5 ArtCam
users who are close by and willing to help you and work with you to
learn the program it would be wise to go that route. If you know a
lot of Matrix users the same would apply.The absolute cheapest and
easiest entry into the CAD world is a student version of Rhino ($200)
With the Tech-Gems add on ($400-500) you can really make it sing. It
is a very very powerful combination. If I was forced to give up my
Matrix and it was replaced with Rhino and Tech-Gems I would be able
to survive. Matrix would make my life easier but I would survive and
earn my living with Rhino and Tech-Gems.

I use Matrix/Rhino and prefer it. The reasons are simple. It is an
extremely powerful program and I am in constant touch with other
Matrix users. The Matrix forum is full of videos as to how to use the
program and how to employ specific techniques. There are pdf
tutorials in the beginning, intermediate and advanced levels, and
there are numerous videos posted there too. It is rapidly becomming
the industry standard. In the past I have watched other cheaper CAD
programs come on the market and because of price sell some
copies…then die because of lack of support or because the people
who have bought the program can’t get anyone to help them with it.

The Matrix vs ArtCam issue is much the same as the Mac vs Windows
computer issue. If you are among a nest of Mac users and can get
access to their software and their help then you should probablly
buy a Mac. But if you are the lone guy/gal who owns a Mac amongst an
entire office force of Windows users and absolutly none of these
people can loan you any software or help you with your problems then
what good is your Mac computer? It may be the best system on the
market (according to Mac users) but it sure does lack market share.
If you can’t use it to its best and highest possible usage then what
good is it to you? I am not trying to step on the toes of any of the
other software sellers here. I am stating a fact based upon my
experience. You can never go wrong swimming WITH the stream. Trying
to swim UPSTREAM is a totally different experience altogether.

David

David’s posting contains an excellent summary of the options for
both beginners and professionals. Like him I started at the
“bleeding edge” of a new technology. In my case I was one of the
first 3D Studio users in Scotland, providing technical animation.
Tying this together with video cards, frame-by-frame video
recorders, tape motion drivers, and all under DOS, was a most
frustrating, but ultimately rewarding experience. I made a few
mistakes by swimming upstream but I survived, thanks mainly to the
advice and support of the early BBS discussion groups. Most of the
others setting up this sort of low end animation studio were based
in LA and there was no possibility of local support.

Moving on a decade and a bit I have decided to venture into
producing jewellery. On a family holiday in Greece a couple of years
ago we were discussing the general purpose, or lack of such, in
life. My son somehow came up with the suggestion of making
jewellery. A couple of days mulling over the suggestion and it all
fell into place. I can certainly do 3D, as an experienced engineer I
should be able to get to grips with the manufacturing process, and
as an occasional web developer I should be able to handle
e-Jewellery Jewelery design experience - that would just have to be
gained.

Another year on and I have been producing and selling jewellery
online. Not much, but the commercial work is busy and paying the
bills, and the jewellery development costs. I have no space or
desire to cast metal from home so have used services both to cast
and finish and to date have been modelling direct from 3D Studio Max
to Rapid Prototyping service bureau. This works great but the costs
of the RP service are significant, and if you don’t like the first
result it’s going to cost to try again.

After quite a bit of lurking and gathering I decided to
try CNC milling. I knew of the ModelMaster/Mini-Tech options but was
wary of investing a considerable sum into something which is going
to remain a development cost for the foreseeable future. I had also
read somewhere - “if you are doing high precision jewellery wax
milling, you are not using a Sherline”. But I decided to look on the
purchase as a learning investment and went for a 4-axis Sherline
Mill, along with the other bits and pieces required to cut and
measure.

4 months on and I have absolutely no regrets. Yes it is difficult to
set the Sherline up. Yes it is difficult to get accurate results.
And yes it is relatively slow, but for someone who has had to watch
many thousands of video frames being laid down one by one to tape,
it is a relatively benign operation. I am still of course working in
3DS Max and driving the CNC through Mach3 and Meshcam, both of which
are suitable budget products and highly recommended. I am cutting
with 0.1mm tools and achieving results better than expected. I have
concentrated on getting good results from simple designs, but would
now be confident of tackling just about any 4-axis operation.

I have also learnt a lot about the design considerations and
limitations of milling. I may, for a number of reasons, go to RP for
final production for some items but the milling process allows me to
experiment with little financial penalty.

I also agree with Dave that the Sherline would not be suitable for a
busy commercial workshop. It just won’t work fast enough and the
man-hours required to setup and keep accurate would just add too
much to the production cost of each item. To date I have been
working with the CNC mainly evenings and weekends. I have promised
myself to take time out at some point this year and develop a much
wider range of products. The Sherline would be up to this, but if
producing jewellery ever became a full time occupation, something
like the ModelMaster or Mini-Tech would be top on the list.

However, like many others, I have caught the CNC bug. Through the
usual sources I now have a collection of precision ballscrews,
slides and bearings, a set of Geckodrives, small servos, power
supplies, and even a precision rotary stage ready to roll. I have
hooked it all up and the trial runs give the sort of speeds and
operation I expected. I now have to design and make (on the
Sherline) all the bits to clamp everything together. I hope that my
engineering experience stands me in good stead, and that the results
will be up to something like the Modelmaster. OK its not very
sensible, but when was sensible fun…

Martin
www.scottishmist.com

Sherline Mills

As Martin said the Sherline is definately not a production machine
for anyone who wants to crank out a bunch of waxes. It runs at about
250 mm per minute. My modelmaster runs at 650- 700 and I think the
Revo is capable of 1200. The little Rolands are actually little speed
deamons. I have heard that the new Minitech’s are quite fast too. I
have never seen the new model though.

Even with the RP houses it is sometimes much cheaper to run a part
on a smaller cheap mill to see if it is what you think you designed.
Everything looks really good on a 20 inch monitor. If you send out a
part or parts to be RP’ed and they are too thin or too thick or the
prongs are not the right length or in the wrong place, you get to
pay for it again, as well as waste time doing the model over.

Don’t get me wrong, Taig, Maxnc, and Sherline have their place in
the CAD world. The Sherline is actually capable of some nice cutting
work and will hold good tolerances. I cut 6 waxes today and have more
lined up for tomorrow. My setup time with the Modelmaster is minimal
compared to the Sherline. The higher in price you go with mills the
more automated they become. And that’s a good thing. I am also
cutting pieces at twice the speed or 1/2 the time as the Sherline
did, so I can do more in a day than I could with the Sherline. I just
bought a Sherline Lathe off of one of the members here, so I really
don’t think Sherlines are of no value. I just want anyone who is
thinking of going that route to get an idea of what they are in for
when they do it. It all sounds good and looks real easy until you are
way too deep into it to back out. I would not change the experience
that I had though. It was very good training.

As more and more people get involved with milling and CAD there is
more help available to you, and there are places that will train you
in the use of the machine and the CAD program too. That is why I
suggested that you look first as to what your support group is going
to be prior to the purchase of a software or a mill. If no one else
that you know, or are on the networks with, or you can’t call up and
have them help you with the problem with either the mill or the CAD
program I would seriously think twice about getting involved with it.
Rhino has a very good, informative and active newsgroup on the
internet. It is a very good, easy and cheap way to get involved with
CAD. Tech-Gems will give Rhino some punch and performance and is very
reasonably priced. The Matrix user forum is EXTREMELY active and very
informative and packed full of Unfortunately it is a
closed members only forum. ArtCam has a public forum on the web.

http://forum.artcam.com/

However, real and help does not appear to be readily
available in their forum. There are various users who post tutorials
from time to time, but nothing is ever posted by DelCam in the way
of tutorials, videos, or “here’s the way to do this”. They do answer
questions though, but it does take a while to get an answer. Help
with ArtCam does not seem easy to come by. I do not personally know
of anyone who has purchased 3Design, and I am not aware of any forums
or newsgroups regarding that software. I would like to learn more
about it. Perhaps if there are any Kamal can direct us too them. Same
can be said for JewelCad, and Cimigraphi. Try finding anything for
them. You could possible get help with JewelCad if you read Chinese,
but other than that I am unaware of any tutorials or forums. I can
find Nothing for Cimigraphi. Matrix and Rhino seem to be the market
share leaders. Both Rolls and Bentley’s are a very fine automobile,
but I don’t think that I would want to be in the position of needing
any service on either of them if I lived in the mountains of Vermont
or in Needles Nevada…if you know what I mean.

David