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Superglue to keep granulation is place


#1

To whomever suggested using superglue gel to keep granulation is
place, can this method be used with flat pieces and wires too?

Thanks in advance.


#2

Some suggestions here on granulation and for understanding the
"education" behind how granulation works.

The “glue” mixture for granulation (10 drops distilled water, 3
drops Hide (you can substitute gum Tragacanth here) Glue, 2 drops
Batterns flux) is much less toxic than using superglue. I prefer a
stickier solution.

Using Cynoacrelate (sp), which is Super Glue, is highly toxic when
burned off, not to mention, it’s just too darn sticky too fast.

The granules like to bunch up when wet, and while they are in this
"wet" stage, you, the artisan, has the ability to move the granules
into position. Good granulation techniques take time and patience. Be
sure to coat the granules in a copper salt bath first, which is
nothing more than a copper dish, a little steel or iron, and some
copper saturated pickle.

After applying the granules, it is important to allow the glue to
dry and set up first. Then you can apply heat. Skipping this part
makes the granules jump out of position.

IF your granules are popping off (and of course that has never
happened to me, LOL), and you are watching not only granules leap off
your piece in the shape of $ signs, a crucial step was left out.

I highly suggest that if you want to enter the world of gold
granulation, then seek the advice of the best granulation expert I
know. Ronda Coryell does amazing granulation and has worked in Bali
watching what they do.

Ronda has a website and DVD’s on the process. Invest, watch and
learn. Be patient. The traditional methods work for a reason. Once
everything is mostly in place, you can solder it down if necessary.

She is a wealth of

-k

Karen Christians
Cleverwerx
Waltham, MA


#3

Since I’m the one that suggested that I’ll say even though haven’t
tried it under those circumstances I suspect it would work. Hyde
(sp?) Glue might be a lot easier to work with though! Probably gives
you more “working” time to set the beads.

As an aside I thought the gentleman that told me to try that was
nuts too- but I tried it anyway by super-gluing a bead onto a piece
of scrap sheet, tilted at an angle of around 30-40 degrees, and
soldered it. It actually worked!

I have noticed, however, that too much solder and/or uneven heating
can also cause pieces to “float” across a surface- as can heated air
underneath the piece if it has no other way to escape.

Kenton


#4

Not sure who submitted that superglue be used, but I do not
recommend that you choose that adhesive as a permanent solution. It
will evaporate at the melting point of silver. go with any more
traditional glue/salts mixutre such as white glue and blue stone or
hide glue and copper sulphate, or any organic glue and silver
nitrate…yes it’s not instant gratification, but the metals will
actually bond as opposed to just creating a layer of cyanoacrylate
in-between tow metal substrates…rer


#5
It will evaporate at the melting point of silver. 

Not really RER. Liquid superglue point of vaporization is 54-56
degrees Celsius. This is the basis for a the “superglue fuming
method,” a critical component of any criminal investigation, the
detection and analysis of fingerprints left at a crime scene.

Mark


#6

I can add something to this.

I had to make an octopus pendant. About an inch in size. So I carved
the wax, and cast in silver. Hassle was, it needed tiny little balls
along the tentacles, representing the ‘suckers’. This was a mission
to do in wax, so I left it until the piece was cast and rather use
real silver balls. (like about.5mm in diameter) So I took a ball
frazer and frazed out a concave and then I glued in the little balls
using super glue. This was because I was going to make a RTV mould
anyway. That came out perfect, so just to see what would happen I
also made a hot rubber mould using Castaldo gold rubber. I wanted to
see if the little balls would stay in place. And Lo and Behold, they
stayed in place long enough for the rubber to mould around them.
When I cut the mould apart, most of them fell off, but the still held
on long enough for the mould to actually form perfectly. They
were,admittedly, very small, so I think that was the reason for them
staying in place.

Cheers, Hans
http://hansmeevis.blogspot.com


#7

Good point about the toxicity, Karen- especially if you don’t have
some type of ventilation system. I didn’t consider that since I’ve
rarely used the super glue technique and it didn’t injure or kill me
the several times I did use it. That is also why I suggested that
hide glue might be easier to work with than superglue- including the
fact that hide glue would probably allow for more “working time”.
Also, I was only soldering one or two design elements onto a large
piece when I did use the superglue- I would assume that a
granulation design would require a lot more glue and would thus
present a higher level of toxicity when burned off. I don’t know,
however, exactly what toxic chemicals are formed when super-glue is
burned off. If anybody does I would appreciate knowing too. Tried to
Google that info but couldn’t find any useful links that told me what
I wanted to know.

Kenton


#8

Kenton,

In my studio we use Klyr-Fire diluted with a little distilled water
as glue for the granules. If we have to make the granules stick on a
vertical surface, we add a little batterns flux to the mixture.
Klyr-Fire is a clear and slightly thick liquid that is sold by
Thompson enamel company (probably others also) for use in enameling.
It burns off very clean. Our granulating technique is for 22k. I
think if you are using 18k you need some source of carbon in your
mix, such as hide glue. I don’t know what Klyr-fire is made of.

Maybe this will help,
Janet


#9

Hi Janet Alix and Kenton,

Klyr-Fire is gum tragacanth. You can buy it in powder form (at any
enamel supplier?) and mix it with a little water as needed to make
it any consistency you want. It is organic and consequently perfect
for supplying carbon for granulation.

Janet in Jerusalem


#10

the easiest place to find gum tragacanth is at any wine making
supplier. It is readily available most cheaply there. (it replaces
the archaic method of clarifying wines and brandies with egg albumen
and is far safer than introducing what is essentially a raw meat
product into your almost ready fruit and/or herb product - as one
adds it at near end of the fermentation process).

RER


#11

Another source to obtain gum tragacanth is a baker’s supply site.
I’m not sure what a baker uses it for, but it is less expensive than
jewelers supply sites.

Joe Dule


#12

Another source to obtain gum tragacanth is a baker’s supply site.

And I always get mine in powder form from companies which sell
components for artists to make their own pastels (used as a binding
agent). I can’t remember the name right now, but I got a pound and
it’s lasted for years.

Donna in VA