Storing propane tank outside

Jewelry Discussion
21 
What if one hooked a hose to the release valve & just duck-taped
the heck out of it, and ran that hose outside.

you’d still have that potential hazard inside. IF a relief hose was
allowed (which I kinda doubt) the way to do it would be hard piping
with some sort of animal proof screen. But absolutely don’t do this.
I only mention it because duct tape is not the wonder cure its made
out to be. Hold a Nascar fender in place long enough to finish the
race, yeah. Risk someone’s life on duct tape? NO.

As much as fire codes are designed to prevent property loss they are
more concerned with human safety. The firefighters come to your house
(and anyone who lives/works in your building) and they are confronted
with either a ticking bomb or a giant jet of flame shooting from a
Rube Goldberg propane vent. A relief valve is meant to relieve
pressure that builds up in a fire, so you have an ignition source,
since your studio is already on fire. Forget the financial loss for
the moment, does anyone want to be responsible for injury or death?
And possible criminal charges resulting from that?

Somewhere in this thread I believe I read that it is permissible to
USE the 20 pounders inside as long as you STORE it outside when not
in use. Legalities aside (I would think ‘storage’ is not the critical
thing in the Fire Marshal’s mind, its the fact that it’s inside at
all), you’d still have a hazard. In the event of fire are you going
to take the time to unhitch the hoses(and can you do it safely in a
panicked state of mind?), grab that tank and bring it out or are you
going to run like hell?

Don’t be cheap, hire a professional to hook you up. If you can’t
avoid being cheap (like me) use the disposable bottles.

Sorry to sound stern here, this thread pushed my Dutch Uncle button.

22

should you store acetylene outside if you don’t use it regularly? it
would have to be secured.

jean adkins

23 
Is it legal in Canada to work with the torch inside and then remove
the tank when finished?

In the area that I inspect I have several glass artists, jewelers
and dental techs that require propane for there torches. We limit the
size of a propane botttle to 5 pounds for safety. My recomendation is
to use it indoors and then when you are finished move it outdoors to
a secure location storing the tank upright.

Do not under estimate the stored energy of propane. Several years ago
I investigated an explosion that that happened in a handyman/plumbers
van. The fellow had a disposible 1 pound propane bottle connected to
the torch and for some reason there was a fire in the van. The
propane in the bottle got excited from the heat, expanded and the
bottle blew up adding fuel to the fire. The van was destroyed as well
as a vehicle parked on either side of the van. I have included a link
to an explosion at the Atlas foundary in Tacoma WA I found on U Tube
that shows the power of propane on a larger scale. Size it down and
decide whether you would want to have this happen in your home or
studio.

If after watching that clip you still want to keep it indoors…

Good luck
Ric

24

Neil et al, Thanks for all the concern with the gas tanks. The whole
situation was a bit surprsing since Otto Frei sells them as
jeweler’s torches–one assumes for studio work.

But you are right, the financial concerns should come after the
safety issues. I will have an offical look at the set up and go from
there.

I was really only joking about the duct tape!

CS

25

Acetylene is lighter than air and tends to disappiate. Thus it
doesn’t have quite as serious a safety issue inside. It still has
safety issues, such as keeping the tank upright and leak free etc.
etc.

Dan Wellman

26 
Is it legal in Canada to work with the torch inside and then remove
the tank when finished?

Speaking from Quebec, It depends… On the tank and the
Jurisdiction.

Montreal has the tightest Standards and the answer would be no. The
rest of the province maybe… Quebec, like many jurisdictions use
the NFPA guidelines as a base and modify them based on local (Read
Special interests) input. The NFPA guidelines do not permit the
storage of Propane tanks indoors, with the only exception being the
small disposable tanks… period.

Carol, Again there are 2 sides to this The fire Codes / Inspector
and your insurance company. While the codes in come areas may permit,
your insurance company may still refuse to pay… Then I hope you
have the money to pay a lawyer to dance on the head of a pin in front
of the court to try and collect…

Would I do it? No

Suggested alternatives are (in rank order by my personal preference)

1- Get a water torch

2- If natural gas is available get a natural gas compressor and have
it installed to code and use a torch with Flashback Arrestors.

3- Use an Acetylene rig with Flashback Arrestors

4- Have proper piping installed with an external propane tank and
use you guessed it… Flashback Arrestors.

Of course if you live out in the country and already have Propane
plumbed into the house for cooking and heating, then it would climb
to #2 in my suggested list. Like many I see it’s main safety risk
being that it is a heavier than air gas and that it tends to pool,
however if you already have the risk, IE for heating, then you are
not increasing the risk by using it.

You know it’s funny… in a way… the Safety mavens have a hernia
every time someone mentions using (Fill in your hated chemical
here)… But many many more people have been killed and injured in
gas explosions… but people seem oh so willing to try to shortcut
the required safety guidelines with industrial gases. The bottom line
is that anyone can sprout their opinion here. In any case, but most
especially in this case do the following

1- Study what the risks are, using reputable sources.

2- See what the legal requirements are.

3- See what the Industry requirements are (In many Jurisdictions
when you get a business license there are additional restrictions as
to zoning, signage and allowable processes which may include open
flames).

4- See what the Insurance requirements are

The orchid discussion list can be a valuable resource but when it
comes to #2, 3 and 4 you HAVE to consult with local professionals.
And when it comes to fire codes it’s even worse, because what is
acceptable in Mississauga can be illegal 50 Meters away in Brampton
as an example. And in one case the insurance will never pay, while 50
Meters away on the other side of the line, they may have to pay. Go
figure!! THAT’S WHY Lawyers get rich…

Kay

27 
Acetylene is lighter than air and tends to disappiate. Thus it
doesn't have quite as serious a safety issue inside. It still has
safety issues, such as keeping the tank upright and leak free etc.
etc.

The concern I’ve always had with acetylene is that it has a huge
explosive range. From 2 to 80% of the atmosphere, IIRC. All other
gases are much narrower. When I’m working with acetylene, I always
look for the smell - it’s a sharp, garlic odour. The sharp quality
comes from the acetone it’s dissolved in. When I’m using an oxy
acetylene torch, I always kill the oxygen first. That way you can
tell if there’s an acetylene leak - the flame won’t completely
extinguish when you turn it off. I’ve been able to identify a leak
in at least one torch this way. It’s bad to let them pop, as well. It
throws soot back into the torch tip.

Paul Anderson

28 
should you store acetylene outside if you don't use it regularly?
it would have to be secured.

I store mine outside all year round, inside a big plastic garbage
can, one of those “locking” kind. The tank is sitting on top of a
couple of bricks to keep it up off the bottom of the garbage can, in
case there is any condensation. So far, I’ve not had any problems
with this arrangement.

Judy Bjorkman

29

About 6 years ago I plumbed my propane tank through the wall and
into my studio. I had for years been using my 20lb (gas grill type)
propane tank in my studio along with my oxygen tank.

After 15 years I decided that enough was enough and went to my gas /
welding supplier and spoke with them. I determined with their help
that a propane hose going through the wall was not the best idea in
my situation and instead used --on recommendation-- black iron pipe
and elbows to plumb the tank from outside my studio in to my torches.

An 8" black iron nipple (short length of pipe threaded at both ends)
is what goes through the wall itself. Inside the studio is a gas
rated ball shut off valve. The hole pipe system is bolted to the
wall with conduit strap and terminates in a splitter that allows me
to run two torches from this one source.

Outside, the nipple is stepped down to a thread that will accept the
female end of a black Type “T” single propane hose that then ends in
a regulator. This hose allows for easy changing out of tanks since a
rigid black iron pipe connected regulator would be very hard to line
up. Type “T” hose is rated for propane.

The tank itself is stored in a loose, lattice type of hut that I
made so that air can flow in and out. It has a door with a hasp and
lock. Works great. I also have one in my basement for casting.

Take care, Andy

30

The plant that distributes propane and acetylene gases in Dallas
caught fire and blew up. Here is a link to the series of hundreds of
explosions. Notice about half way through the video, there is a shot
of one of the tanks shooting off to the right of the screen like a
rocket and going about a half mile, hitting a local hotel.

Love and God Bless
randy
http://www.rocksmyth.com

31

sounds like an excellent idea. i wonder if you could put some vent
holes in the top of the sides so any leak could escape but not let
in moisture.

32

Only one improvement to suggest. When running any kind of pipe
throygh a wall, it is a good idea to make the hole big enough to use
a sleeve of an outer pipe when sealing the wall. I have used pvc
before. That way you cement etc. to the sleeve, and caulk to the
pipe. Makes it easy to service / replace and helps protect from
corrosion.

Dan Wellman

33 
After 15 years I decided that enough was enough and went to my
gas / welding supplier and spoke with them. I determined with their
help that a propane hose going through the wall was not the best
idea in my situation and instead used --on recommendation-- black
iron pipe and elbows to plumb the tank from outside my studio in
to my torches.

Most of us using propane with our torches are running somewhere in
the neighborhood of 5-15 psi propane. Unless you are running less
than 14" WC (about 0.5 PSI) you should not pipe it in from the
outside if you studio is in a residence. For safety reasons you
cannot legally pipe higher pressure gas into a residence.

I use a similar set up to Andy’s for my studio which is separate
his house so this is not a problem for us but others may not have
this option.

James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

360-756-6550

34

Most of that problem was the acetylene tanks. What is surprizing
about that inferno, is there was one fatality, one of 4 watchdogs.
It happened during business hours, with folks at the plant and at
surrounding businesses. Two men were injured, but both were out of
the hospital, in less than a month! It was caused by an
inexperienced driver, mishandling a pickup of gas. The news media did
often say that it was propane, but the tanks that rocketed around the
site and across 2 interstates were ACETYLENE. That was a scary day.
By the way, that happened about 5 miles from my home.

Cairenn, the Howling Artist
www.howlingartist.com

35 
This hose allows for easy changing out of tanks since a rigid
black iron pipe connected regulator would be very hard to line up

I’ll point out here that having a flexible connection to your tank
isn’t just convenient, it’s also REQUIRED by building codes. Any
appliance or tank connected to a gas line must have a flexible
connection. It’s also required by code that you have a shut off
valve on each and every appliance and line. Any movement for any
reason and POP goes the gas line, otherwise.

36

i’m sorry: i responded to judy bjorkman’s message about storing her
ace tylene tank in a garbage can without referring to the original
message. judy had said

I store mine outside all year round, inside a big plastic garbage
can, one of those "locking" kind. The tank is sitting on top of a
couple of bricks to keep it up off the bottom of the garbage can,
in case there is any condensation. So far, I've not had any
problems with this arrangement.

my question: would it be good to provide for any acetylene leak by
putting some holes at the top of the can’s sides (i’m thinking close
to the rim where water might not flow)?

jean adkins

37 
This hose allows for easy changing out of tanks since a rigid
black iron pipe connected regulator would be very hard to line up

I’ll point out here that having a flexible connection to your tank
isn’t just convenient, it’s also REQUIRED by building codes. Any
appliance or tank connected to a gas line must have a flexible
connection. It’s also required by code that you have a shut off
valve on each and every appliance and line. Any movement for any
reason and POP goes the gas line, otherwise.

38

Propane is heavier than air, you may want to put the vent holes at
the bottom so propane does not collect in the case of a leak.

Vent holes at the top would help to dissipate warm air inside the
enclosure.

I’ve been thinking of a storing my propane tank outside as well but
the -20 to -40 degree temps here in the winter add a few wrinkles.
:slight_smile:

Mike O’Toole

39 
Only one improvement to suggest. When running any kind of pipe
throygh a wall, it is a good idea to make the hole big enough to
use a sleeve of an outer pipe when sealing the wall.

We were planning to do the same, but our insurance company (in the
UK) were not happy about that as it then becomes what they class as a
permanent installation. They were only happy for me to store my
propane outside and run the hoses in through the window! I can see
me having to wear lots of sweaters in the winter!

Helen
UK

40

Paul,

The concern I've always had with acetylene is that it has a *huge*
explosive range. From 2 to 80% of the atmosphere

I agree with you completely. Below is a cut and past of a something
that I posted on Orchid in 2002.

The topic of which gas is more dangerous comes up regularly on
Orchid. 

Both propane and acetylene have their own individual pluses and
minuses when it comes to safety. 

Many people seem to focus on the fact that propane is heavier
than air and tends to pool. This is absolutely true, but.... when
a combustible gas leaks in an enclosed space such as a home
studio with limited ventilation, it doesn't make much difference
whether the gas is heavier or lighter than air. If it has no
place to go it will accumulate until it can somehow dissipate via
an open window or through ventilation. If it sees a spark before
it dissipates then it has a real good chance of exploding. 

My approach to safety with these gasses is to minimize the
amount that I keep in my home studio. I use propane and MAPP gas
and limit the amount in my home to one disposable tank of each.
Smaller inventory of gas means a smaller explosion, if the gas
does indeed ignite. 

If acetylene was available in small disposable containers ( and
I believe that it is not) I would probably still not use it. This
is because acetylene has a much greater explosive range than
propane. I don't have the numbers handy, but acetylene can
explode over a very large range of concentrations in air, while
propane has a much smaller explosive range. This means that gas
from a tank of acetylene leaking in an enclosed space (your
studio) has a greater chance of exploding than the gas from tank
of propane leaking at the same rate..

While I am not specifically in the propane or acetylene business, I
have been working as a chemical engineer in related industries for
almost 30 yrs and spent part of my career doing hazard analysis on
industrial oil and gas facilities

Regards
Milt Fischbein
Calgary Canada