I just got my first crock-pot (intending to use it for pickle) and
some Ph down pool chemical. What's the ratio of pool chemical to
water to make the proper pickle?
Not really important. Make it as strong as you like, or weaker, if a
slower pickle suits you. I’d use about a cup of chemical to a quart
of water for a fairly strong pickle. If you just touch a fingertip to
the pickle solution to wet the fingertip, and taste it, it should be
really sour, not just slightly so. And no, this won’t harm you or
your fingertip (I’m not, after all suggesting you drink the stuff,
which might give you a bad case of heartburn or more. In small
quantities, sodium bisulphate can be found even as a food additive
in some products, so don’t worry about toxicity of the “taste
test”…) But if it’s strong enough, though you don’t need to, you’ll
likely want to rinse out your mouth 'cause it will be really sour
tasting… (grin) Remember that the pool chemical, just like Sparex,
is simply sodium bisulphate. The pool chemical adds a little
something inert so it doesn’t cake up in the container, while Sparex
jacks up the price in order to sell an impure product that makes a
mess of a pickle pot, but the basic amounts to use of each are the
same. The basic recipe is simple. Take some water. Add some pickle
chemical and dissolve it. If you then, or later, decide that you want
it faster acting and stronger, then add more chemical. This isn’t
rocket science. If you use too little, that only means it will be
slow to work. Use too much, and it won’t all dissolve. In between
there is a very wide range of acceptable mixes.
I just got my first crock-pot (intending to use it for pickle) and
some Ph down pool chemical. What's the ratio of pool chemical to
water to make the proper pickle?
regular strength: 1cup pH down to 2 Quarts H2O
stripping strength: 1 c. pH down to 1 Quart water heat to approx. 140
degrees F. never let the solution boil, and always neutralize before
introducing into a water system (with sodium bicarbonate)
If you just touch a fingertip to the pickle solution to wet the
fingertip, and taste it, it should be really sour, not just
slightly so. And no, this won't harm
A novel way to mix pickle ;} And no, it won’t harrm you as stated.
Pickle is one of the safer things around if handled properly -
“pickle paranoia” is one of the great mysteries of the world. Anyway,
I use about the proportions people have said, but I use the smell
test - it should stink a bit to be as strong as I like it…
I was seeing the same brown gunk using Sparex2, so I switched to Ph
Down…what a difference! I mixed 6oz of Ph Down with 32oz water in
crock, let it heat up, and dropped in a few pieces. When I checked
after about 15 minutes, they were nice and clean.
I love the forum and am learning a lot. I hope to one day be able to
offer quality guidance and advice as so many of you graciously share.
Pickle is one of the safer things around if handled properly -
"pickle paranoia" is one of the great mysteries of the world.
And to really throw a monkey wrench in this whole discussion, I am
going to state that the best and the safest pickle is 10% solution of
sulphuric acid. Proper handling is the key here. After soldering the
item should be boiled out in the acid solution. But if boiling out is
done in any other vessel than pure unlined copper, the fumes can be
dangerous and in large concentration can lead to the paralysis of the
nerves controlling lung functions. That is where pickle paranoia
comes from. If the copper pot is used the product is solution of
harmless copper sulphate which can be dumped without further
treatment.
but my original instructor said to simply make a saturated solution
with the PhDown which is what I've been doing for the last 18 years
and it works just fine.
what does “saturated solution” mean? 1/2 and 1/2-- 1/3 PhDown- 1/8?
A saturated solution is where you keep adding solute (pH Down in
this case) to solvent (water in this case) and stirring, adding and
stirring, etc until no more solute will go into solution (dissolve)
and you have an excess of solute at the bottom of the vessel.
what does "saturated solution" mean? 1/2 and 1/2-- 1/3 PhDown-
1/8?
Amery - I just add PhDown until it won’t dissolve into the water
anymore. I mix mine in a separate container (a quart measuring cup)
and then pour it into my crock pot. Next time I mix up a new batch,
I’ll measure the amounts so I can be more accurate for you. Generally
I add some PhDown to the water and stir - when it’s all dissolved,
I’ll add some more PhDown and so on until the water simply will not
absorb any more. Then I heat it up, and generally the last tiny bit
that didn’t dissolve in the intial mixing, does dissolve in the
heated up water. I realize this is not very scientific, but it’s the
method I’ve used all these years and it works for me.
Perhaps some chemistry person can give you a scientific explanation.
Not having studied chemistry I can’t.
But if boiling out is done in any other vessel than pure unlined
copper, the fumes can be dangerous and in large concentration can
lead to the paralysis of the nerves controlling lung functions.
I don’t understand. For our chemistry profs out there, please
explain to me how it is that H2SO4 is stored in glass containers
(certainly with plugs). I recall from Chem lab, that chemical
reactions are generally carried out in Pyrex type glassware. I’ve
been using Pyrex beakers with watch glass covers. This leaves a small
opening where the spout is located in the beaker’s lip, which would
allow some fumes to escape.
Judy in Kansas, whose inquiring mind wants to know.
Any chemical should be neutralized before “dumping” unconsciously
into our nations or planet’s waterways. Attitudes like this are a
large percentage of the problem with the planet’s impending and
deteriorating environmental state due to humans and their disregard
for producing and dumping chemicals, etc. While some forms of copper
sulfate are used for instance for spraying roses to prevent black
spot and other viral infections, there are clear and present
cautions on the packaging put there to inform users and regarding the
safe disposal of the packaging and unused solution in- for instance-
the tank sprayer used in rose care…
However, Sulfuric acid is NEVER safer than Sodium Bisulphate.
Particularly if one has to prepare a 10% solution from virgin acid-
buffered or not out of the bottle, it is always more hazardous than
anhydrous chemicals (pHdown or sodium bisulphate)…and while touting
the use of sulphuric acid I do not see any instruction you give for
its safe handling or proper disposal. It seems if you intend to
educate new jewelers with your vast and voluminous “knowledge”,
concern for their safety, and the safety of our shared planet as
regards jewelers chemicals should be de rigeuer when proposing any
chemical for the small studio as used by beginners often having no
education but learning as they go, by trial-and-error, particularly
given the large margin for error chemical hazards present in the
home, in the studio and in the school.
I don't understand. For our chemistry profs out there, please
explain to me how it is that H2SO4 is stored in glass containers
(certainly with plugs). I recall from Chem lab, that chemical
reactions are generally carried out in Pyrex type glassware. I've
been using Pyrex beakers with watch glass covers. This leaves a
small opening where the spout is located in the beaker's lip, which
would allow some fumes to escape.
I don’t quite get what bit you don’t understand? Yes sulphuric acid
is kept in glass jars, chemically resistant glass jars, usually
brown which protects light sensitive chemicals. Sulphuric acid is
obviously very dangerous and its fumes can cause severe respiratory
injury and at worst death as Leonid points out. That’s why such
reactions we conducted at university were ALWAYS carried out in a
fume cupboard which had a very powerful vacuum extraction system,
sucking the fumes up out of the building into the atmosphere. That’s
presumably also why most jewellers use safer pickles such as pHDown
and the like. It would NOT be a good idea to conduct chemical
reactions with conc. sulphuric on the open bench using glassware with
an open spout. Leonid appears to be saying that if you use a pure
copper vessel, any excess sulphate ions will react with the copper
and produce harmless copper sulphate and so not pose a danger to
one’s health.
Any chemical should be neutralized before "dumping" unconsciously
into our nations or planet's waterways.
Speaking of neutralizing Sodium bisulphate, are there any toxic
gases produced when neutralizing Sodium bisulphate with baking soda
in the kitchen sink or should I be doing this outside?
Rick Copeland
Silversmith and Lapidary Artisan
Rocky Mountain Wonders
Colorado Springs, Colorado rockymountainwonders.com
If you are going to use PH down (sodium bisulfate), for your pickle,
keep in mind that this is a swimming pool chemical. It regulates the
PH in the water for pools and spas. So… the bottom line is you
need to dilute it, not neutralize it; no other chemicals needed
except more H2O.
I don't understand. For our chemistry profs out there, please
explain to me how it is that H2SO4 is stored in glass containers
(certainly with plugs). I recall from Chem lab, that chemical
reactions are generally carried out in Pyrex type glassware.
In the lab things are mixed so they will be used up in the reaction.
Some excess are taking care by the exhaust hood. Boiling precious
metal in the acid will not used up the acid. If one inhale the fumes,
this is not a good idea and in time can have serious consequences.
Boiling process also drives small particle of the acid in the air and
that gets in the lungs. Doing it in copper vessel, acid is used up
reacting with copper and the result is copper sulphide and water.
That is the difference. Of course exhaust hood is recommended in
either case. I never meant to create an impression that sulphuric
acid reacts with glass.
However, Sulfuric acid is NEVER safer than Sodium Bisulphate.
Particularly if one has to prepare a 10% solution from virgin
acid- buffered or not out of the bottle, it is always more
hazardous than anhydrous chemicals
Acid substitutes work in 99% but not in 100% and it is the last
percent that always gets you. I was always told that Murphy lives
under the bench. The safety of handling chemicals cannot be taught
via email instructions. Anybody who intents to handle chemicals
should
go to the local school and spent some time with chemistry teacher.
But the larger point is that jewellery making is dangerous no matter
which aspect of it is examined. The solution is not to stop using it,
but to learn how to do it correctly.
Judy, take that pseudo-medical half-truth with a large grain of
kosher salt- I don’t know many using pure unlined copper as their
standard vessel in the home or small studio- just more
neo-superiority complex confusing the real subject: Sparex and it’s
properties,comparrisson to other chemical equals, and mixing
proportions:
Sparex = pHdown available at any xmart or pool store or some
hardwares
pH down = Sodium Bisulphate- without the clay, or other “inert
ingredients” Krohn uses as filler to increase product weight and
provide the user with a big slick of brown sludge on the top of each
new batch…( it is completely unnecessary in pickle), that has to be
swabbed up before use ( when it’s heated it “coagulates” easier and
is fairly easy to remove with toweling or paper).
A heavy concentration of sodium bisulphhate /pH down/ Sparex#2
would = 2 cups imperial : 1 quart water, lesser yet still strong
would be 1cup (8 oz.) to 1 quart…the 2:1 is great for a nearly
stripping strength solution…or lightly oxidized alloyed silver
(sterling, shibuichi, etc.)
No one is preparing it as Leonid is suggesting and in large enough
quantities to “cause lung nerve paralysis” - in fact the innervation
of the lungs is secondary to the intestines so one would realize a
gaseous uncomfortable feeling first then stop breathing…not going to
happen in your crock pot / pickle pot! just
keep some baking soda ( sodium bicarbonate) handy to neutralize
spills or tubes and lentils that are submerged in pickle- a baking
soda and water solution (1:4) should be used to soak the pieces in
particularly if liquid has the potential of filling a cavity or
recess that is not easily visible from outside the piece…
Neutralizing it virtually eliminates the possibility of a customer /
wearer’s sweat or shower reactivating the dried in pickle and having
a slight, yet unpleasant reaction to the mild acid.
If you are going to use PH down (sodium bisulfate), for your
pickle, keep in mind that this is a swimming pool chemical. It
regulates the PH in the water for pools and spas. So... the bottom
line is you need to dilute it, not neutralize it; no other
chemicals needed except more H2O.
What you said is not really accurate. Yes it’s a pool chemical and
pool chemistry is quite complex with a number of reactions taking
place, but simplified, chlorine based chemicals are generally basic
or alkaline and as such need to be neutralised to regulate the pH of
the pool, hence adding pHDown. pHDown is an acidic chemical which
lowers the pH of the pool to neutral and therefore safe to swim in.
Therefore using the pHDown as a pickle is effective because it’s an
acid so it should be neutralised with sodium bicarbonate or similar
before being flushed into the water system. Most people have such a
chemical in a cupboard somewhere in their house, either as baking
soda or washing soda and if not it’s on the shelves in the
supermarkets.
Speaking of neutralizing Sodium bisulphate, are there any toxic
gases produced when neutralizing Sodium bisulphate with baking
soda in the kitchen sink or should I be doing this outside?
any where is fine. have a larger container than is holding the blue
pickle (spent when deep blue- alternatively bottle in a Kimex jar and
use for copper plating!) as the reaction causes a volcanic foaming
ooze that will invariably spill out of all but the largest vessel you
own- I place it in my wash out sink and just let it do its thing
until the foaming stops then run clear water behind it for a moment
to insure no baking soda that hasn’t dissolved reacts with the next
mouthwash use!..( it’ makes a great kids volcano science project too-
give the kid a set of goggles, gloves and an apron, wood or masonite
base, newsprint or celuclay for the mache’, and silicone caulk or tub
sealer and in a jar, a half cup of the spent sparex ( not sulfuric
acid even if spent) and in a small container or baggie, about two
tablespoons of bicarbonate of soda and after the papier mache volcano
is made -placing a length of discarded/recycled plastic pipe centred
as the chamber & silicone caulked onto the base of the whole project,
add the spent pickle(you can leave it in the baby food jar), add the
baking soda and voila, instant white lava flow… you can rig all
sorts of time delayed contraptions for the soda (rice paper wafers
work great, or weighted and switched filter paper), and colour it
with red orange dry food colourant,but that’s another channel).
thanks for neutralizing