Setting bullet shaped stones

   I cannot believe that anyone who sets a $50,000  stone would use
glue.  If you want to stick something behind lapis or turquoise or
some other relatively inexpensive stone, that's fine.  But glue is
not a PERMANENT solution to setting and to set an expensive and
fragile stone using glue that will some  day get washed away and
then the stone will flop around in its setting and BREAK because of
it is totally unprofessional.  No one who considers themselves a
professional jeweler should ever use glue on stones in this kind of
price range. 

Youā€™ve missed the point of whatā€™s being done and why. And youā€™d
better believe itā€™s common enough with large fragile stones. These
are not beginner or poorly skilled setters, either. Just very careful
ones. Properly chosen glues donā€™t wash away, and these are not used
for bond strength in any case. The metal is tightened down quite
enough to completly hold the stone forever. But sometimes there is
still just a trace of movement to the stone. If the setter is not
completely sure that he/she can be totally safe in tightening the
metal the rest of the way without risk to the stone, then the option
to use a trace (and I really DO mean the smallest possible amount) of
glue is used. The glue is then just a tiny amount of filler between
the metal and the stone, presumably taking up that last little bit of
space where, perhaps, the stone and seat donā€™t quite match as well as
they might. Great care is taken not to get the glue much beyond the
girdle area, and when done right, itā€™s completely invisible and
undetectable, except when you go to remove the stone from the mounting
later. This, in fact, is how I know itā€™s as common as it is, as we
often are making new mountings for costly gems whoā€™s owners are now
tired of the mounting, for several of the high line jewelry shops
whoā€™s custom work we do. When you cut away the old bezel or prongs,
then you find the trace of glue. Itā€™s seldom used for actual
strength, only to take up the very last little bit of slack. Doing
this prevents the possibility of accidentally pushing just a little
too much metal in that last tightening step. yes, I know that a good
stone setter should never have a problem making this evaluation, and
not pushing too hard. But the REALLY good stone setters also know
when to be cautious.

Iā€™ve known quite a number of setters of exceptional skill. Iā€™m not
trying to pretend Iā€™m one of them. Iā€™m pretty good as a setter, but
when we get in quarter million dollar emeralds to set, you better
believe itā€™s Leo, on the other side of the room, whoā€™s gonna set em.
Not me. And heā€™ll probably take all day to study the piece and the
stone, get the seat exactly perfect, and the stone completely properly
set. Heā€™s a patient and careful man. takes no chances, and takes
pride in his work. Iā€™ve never seen him break a stone that he had not
already warned the company owner could not be safely set. He, and the
other really good setters I know will strongly avoid using glue when
possible, but all of them will also not feel some great shame at the
need when the situation arises where to take an unnecessary risk with
the stone instead is the other choice. Folks, the choice to use or
not use glue should not be a ā€œchip on your shoulderā€ sort of thing,
or based on some great pride in your skill, or in the haughty view
that those who use certain techniques and materials are of lesser
skill etc. These are engineering choices, based on the needs of the
piece, the needs of the materials including the stone and the
mounting. Modern glues used correctly can be exceptionally strong and
durable. Aircraft skins and wings owe their great strength,
flexibility, and fatigue resistance to adhesives, which are far
stronger and more durable than the old rivetted style of manufacture.
Properly used in the right situations, they can offer similar
benefits to us. Incorrectly used, glues just make a mess of course,
and can cause damage to fine jewelry. There are many instances where
glues are used incorrectly, out of a lack of skill, or laziness, or
sloppy manufacturing, and stones being glued where there are better,
more secure ways to do it. But to state catagorically that they should
never be used, or that there should never be an appropriate situation
for their use, is simply being narrowminded, and letting some ā€œdogmaā€
get in the way of rational and careful craftsmanship. You donā€™t need
them often. But when you need them, they can give you a better result
than fighting against the need to use them.

Peter Rowe

Peter Roweā€¦well saidā€¦I agree completely I would hope that now we
can move on - this subjectā€™s been well covered. In my humble opinion
John had the best possible idea, I will use that in the future. Just
ordered some diamond burrs to groove the bullets & tongues. Thanks
John.

Brian P. Marshall

What is most interesting (IMHO) about this thread is not the
technical observations as much as the nature or quality of the
responses. I have seen materials from the wildly exotic to the highly
toxic discussed here with openness, objectivity and dispassion. Now
comes the mention of glue, omigod, glue, used in proscribed
circumstances, and feelings run so high that some are reduced to
questioning the professionalism and ethics of those who disagree with
them.

A more interesting topic of discussion might be, why did a simple and
practical question elicit such disproportionately heated responses?
Are we talking about something more than glue here?

Lee Einer

Peter, I continue to respectfully disagree with you on this issue. I
donā€™t feel it is ever necessary to use glue (excepting pearls) and it
is not a question of having a rigid dogma. If you canā€™t set an
expensive stone without it then you shouldnā€™t be setting it and yes
some other guy (hopefully in your shop) should. But he should also
not use be using glue. I have done a tremendous amount of repair work
on high end (and low end) work and I have only exceedingly rarely run
into glue being used on high end goods (like maybe three times in 30
yearsā€“excluding cabs which I have more often run into). I donā€™t
believe it is common practice nor do I think it should become common
practice. Someone in this thread asked whether we are gluesmiths or
metalsmiths. If you are a metalsmith it really should not be
necessary. Daniel R. Spirer, GG Spirer Somes Jewelers 1794 Massachusetts
Ave Cambridge, MA 02140 617-491-6000

Well, after all the whinging and complianing I did about the use of
glue. this guy, Peter Rowe has absolutley humbled meā€¦ This man must
be a geniusā€¦ I would love to see that shopā€¦ For the reasons he
states, especially the 1/4 million dollar emerald, (which I would
probably pass right up on settingā€¦lol) I now see the use in the
proper light as a safe and smart way to not get your but into some
serious troubleā€¦ howeverā€¦ only in the dyer need would I ever
consider this as a method for filling a gap to tighten a stoneā€¦ I am
actually glad I started this big mess of an argument, Iā€™m not sure the
lengthy explanation from Peter would have been givenā€¦ Thank you
Peterā€¦ this just proves that not everyone knows eerything about all
thingsā€¦ And it also proves that we as jewelers will NEVER stop
learningā€¦ I appologize again for any ill feelings I caused in my
postingsā€¦ but remember kids, only as the LAST resort should you use
the glueā€¦ Marc

A more interesting topic of discussion might be, why did a simple
and practical question elicit such disproportionately heated
responses? Are we talking about something more than glue here? 

Of course. Itā€™s not the glue itself, which is just another material.
Itā€™s the perception that itā€™s use is equated with skill levels,
professionalism, laziness or itā€™s lack or or other such issues. These
are factors that affect our self image as jewelers and craftspeopleā€¦
Whether we are able to look in the mirror or at our customers and say
ā€œIā€™m as good a jeweler as I can be or as good as anyone else you can
compare me toā€. while most of the issues we debate in these pages are
concerns at the level of the intellect, this one is at a gut level, a
self-worth level. Hell, its probably even sexual (ā€œreal men donā€™t
useā€¦ā€)ā€¦ (grin)

Peter

Peter, I have spent some time rethinking my position on gluing stones
and decided that , in truth, disclosure is the issue that comes up
here. Because of the strength of the new glues and bonding materials
I look forward to a future of pulling back a prong or a bezel in
order to perform repair work and having a piece of that fragile stone
peel off with the bezel or prong. This means that using glue in the
piece carries some future risk that the customer needs to be informed
of at the time of purchase. Just as it is critical that today we
disclose gemstone treatments to the consumer, it is also critical that
something like bonding a fragile stone to a metal setting should be
disclosed so that the piece may be properly handled in the future. I
think disclosure is truly also the issue in the related trimming the
stone thread. If the customers are always properly informed of all
treatments or actions (ie trimming a stone) anything is possible.
The problem, however is that most jewelers are still not disclosing
anything to the customer. And that makes us all look bad.