Setting bullet shaped stones

Lee,

I agree… the force applied to a tall bullet shaped stone is too
much - for the short bezel you need to use in order for the shape of
the stone to be seen. I will often go a bit further. Epoxies do not
grip as well as they could on the polished base of the stone, so I
will use a 260 diamond wheel to abrade the base for a better bond. I
only do this on relatively inexpensive materials like amethyst,
citrine, garnet, etc.

I also do a very good job of getting the bezel up tight to the stone

  • sometimes it’s just not enough…

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
708 W. Swain Rd.
Stockton, CA 95207
209-477-6535 Workshop/Classrooms

I had exactly that situation about ten years back. The customer was
the chair of the art department and a Cranbrook metalsmith.
Actually, first president of SNAG. What I did was to soak a small
piece of fiberglass cloth in epoxy, spray the back of the stone with
silicon mold release, and when the epoxy started to stiffen, I formed
the sheet against the back of the cameo. I then scribed the outline
of the cameo on the now stiff cloth and sawed it out. Then, having
made a bezel in fully annealed 18K, I sealed the cameo against the
new fiberglass backing with watch crystal cement, which, as you know,
stays soft and plastic and is easily removed, much like rubber
cement. Then I set the bezel.

Hello Lee!

Stonesetter’s deal with physics all the time; we just don’t call it
that. Our simple effort is to construct a negative space from metal,
to put a gem in and by this honed ability; then TIGHTEN IT!

There have been countless times over the years I have taken poorly
cut or unsettable stones to lapidary folks, to improve their
appearance and more settable.

The stone you have described might well need epoxy! Try to choose
stones or cutters, that produce settable material; using conventional
methods. I don’t think I would buy a stone I new I had to glue.
Customers have handed me a few, however. If they elect not improve
the shape, it gets glued.

Tim PS Third post on this subject, I voluntarily bow out. Call it
instincts.

    Truly, this is not a matter of craftsmanship, but of physics. A
tall, >narrow bullet or tongue simply exerts too much force against
the bezel >due the principle of leverage. Better to glue than to
have your customer's stone come loose or even fall to the floor and
shatter.  

I’ve got to disagree here. I believe it’s a matter of a tall enough
bezel of heavy enough guage. It is also an issue of design. If the
design requires the stone be held so lightly, then the setting needs
to be such that the stone is not exposed to a pressure that would pry
it out of it’s bezel. Typically, bullets are made from pretty tough
material, ie. agate, onyx, jade, carnelian, etc. You can pack a
pretty stiff piece of metal up against these guys. Also, the bullet
needs to be properly cut. The taper should be continuous from top to
bottom. If, at the bottom, there is a distance at which there is no
agle to the wall of the stone, then it is an un-settable stone.

    DeDe, Well first let me say this and try to say it politley.. I
wouldn't let anyone who even menitoned the word "glue" work for
me... 

Aha! A man after my own heart. I work for a guy who has an
arraingment with a craftsman not too far from us wherin he sends gold
and stones and the guy makes jewelry. Besides the fact that
everything he makes looks like a dodge truck bumper of one kind or
another, he glues EVERY single colored stone, including the ones that
don’t need it like rubies, saphires. I’m getting mighty sick of
customers bringing back his work with loose stones for me to tighten,
and not being able, in good form, to tell them that I didn’t do it.
I have hammer set tanzanites in heavy 14K white gold channels without
damage. However, I’ve been setting stones for 27 years. I think
that it should go like this. . . . If you have to use glue, you may
have a design problem. Inlay is a somewhat and sometimes different
situation. But a bullet shouldn’t be a problem. Here’s a tip. I
set my stones in place, then using a torch, drip beeswax in around
the stone and melt it down into the bezel. This keeps the stone from
jumping out of place when I hammer on the bezel. Some times I chase
a tool with a hammer, other times I use a System 3 pneumatic
handpiece. Keep in mind, in most cases, I have some kind of
clean-out hole under the stone. Then it’s a matter of bringing the
bezel in to meet the sides of the stone, then hammering down on the
top edge to tighten it fully. Then I just steam out the wax. If I
need a firmer wax, I use red sprueing wax. If I think there’s a risk
of blowing a stone across the room (and into the mystery dimension of
lost stones) I hold the piece with narrow tweezers insi

David L. Huffman, infamous bench-rat.

Marc,

Thats a nice high quality sounding approach. But it’s a bit
narrowminded. I’ve worked, over the last 30 years, with some
exceptionally talented jewelers and stone setters. While every one of
them will always prefer to set the stone with just metal when
possible, every one of them will also use glue in some, limited
situations. If you’re just setting diamonds and well cut hard stones
in properly made settings, you’ll never need it. But there are plenty
of designs out there, and stones to match, where for one reason or
another, insisting on getting a stone absolutely tight with just the
metal is taking an undue risk with the stone. I’m thinking of large
emeralds, tanzanites, opals, etc. Sure, you get them in, and you set
them with the metal if possible. but when it comes down to that last
little bit of metal that needs to move, and you’re in the least bit
unsure whether it’s totally safe to do so, would you wish to be the
one who risks, say, a fifty thousand dollar stone (or more) just for
the ego trip of getting it set tight with just the metal? Or might
you find that a tiny drop of super glue inconspicuously applied to
take up just that last trace of slack might sometimes be a wise idea?
As has been pointed out already, glues and adhesives of various sorts
have been used since the dawn of time, jewelry wise. And in some
cases, properly used, it will give a far safer and more durable
setting job, with absolutely no compromise in beauty or
craftsmanship. It’s not a question of laziness. It’s a question of
useing the right methods at the right time.

Several examples other than the above ones also occur to me. For
example, when setting opals in closed back bezel cups, I often like to
use a thin layer of silicone sealer (the automotive type of stuff).
The bezel can then be tightened nicely, as usual, but the stone is
resting on a thin rubber cushion. Much much more resistant to
accidental breakage by the customer this way, and the silicon glues
are totally permanent. For some of them, you can use the black
silicone type, which sets off the color of some opals quite well,
though of course you might then need sometimes to mention to
customers that the apparent color of the opal is modified by that
background color, to avoid misconceptions. The effect of this glue is
no different than the usage in some of the largest manufacturers of
class rings, of a soft plastic gasket set on the seat underneath the
stone. It cushions the stone, letting the setting be done by
automatic press type machinery, as well a waterproofing the setting so
water doesn’t seep under the stone. I routinely use a little silicone
sealer any time I have to set a stone in a closed back bezel, IF the
stone is one which will never be subjected to heating. In that use,
the glue only helps the whole piece, and diminishes the craftsmanship
not at all. And so it goes. Consider too, that a glue under a stone
forms a perfect, uniformly supportive full contact seat for the stone,
something which is virtually impossible for even the best setter to
acheive with settng burs or the like, cutting seats in the metal.
You can get the shape very very close, but the actual contact support
is almost never going to be more than a few spots. In setting hard
stones like diamonds in some softer metals like yellow golds or
platinum, the pressure of setting the stone then presses the stone
down the rest of the way forming a perfect seat. But with, say,
peridots or tanzanites going into white gold? (grin) If you need a
perfectly supportive seat (which greatly reduces the chances of
breakage, either in setting or later) with such stones, then a metals
only approach isn’t going to give it to you.

The bottom line is that glues are completely appropriate for some
uses. Not for all of them. But knowing when it’s the right choice
for the most professional job is part of the job of being a jeweler,
and blinding yourself to the fact that it IS appropriate in a number
of cases is just limiting your own options.

Peter Rowe

Hi All, Are we Metalsmiths? or Gluesmiths? As to epoxies marine grades
are vastly superior to normal grades. They are designed to resist
highly corrosive envirorments. Including petrochemicals and salt
water. They require mixing by weight for small quanities, a bit of a
pain.

Marcus Amshoff

Marc, This is a forum to present solutions and comments to queries. I
see no reason to apologize. Your reply was to how you set and think.
Others replied as they do. We need to know all sides pro and con. I
have enjoyed visualizing each suggested way. Who knows where that will
lead? Your comments are as valuable as those I saved for future
reference. thank you, Teresa

John, Great idea, I’ve done a similar thing w/ tall bullets asw well.
I did not use the round wire, but rather simple hammered the bezel
into the groove. IUf your careful, you won’t see the groove at all.
One note however, not all stones lend themselves to being notcheed
and then hammered/ pushed on. Be very careful. I’ve not had the
need for glue in these cases. Andy Cooperman

I cannot believe that anyone who sets a $50,000 stone would use
glue. If you want to stick something behind lapis or turquoise or
some other relatively inexpensive stone, that’s fine. But glue is not
a PERMANENT solution to setting and to set an expensive and fragile
stone using glue that will some day get washed away and then the
stone will flop around in its setting and BREAK because of it is
totally unprofessional. No one who considers themselves a
professional jeweler should ever use glue on stones in this kind of
price range.

pride in my work and in the fact I mtyself don't glue anything.. I
always find a way to tighten and secure anything I set.. with no
returns for stones falling out..

Hi Marc. I’ve been keeping my trap shut on this whole thing because,
in the end, everyone has their own ways of doing things. I, however,
am firmly rooted in your camp. Why? Because if I handed something in
in my jewellery courses that was glued that wasn’t a pearl, it would
be handed back to me with a big “F” written on it. We were taught
that there was always, always, always a way to secure things without
glue. That’s just the way I was taught, and that’s the way I’ll teach
my students – just another opinion. :slight_smile: Each to their own.

Peter, Points very well taken… Like you my father has 35 plus years
in this business, and I have 12 years setting stones… We have never
felt the need to use glue… And yes I have set tanzintite, emeralds,
opals, and yes diamonds worth over a hundred thousand dollars, etc…
Also, glue has a tendency to discolor over time… Ego has nothing to
do with why I don’t use glue… I simply don’t need to use it… Maybe
I am nieve, I do my own wax models, therefore I make the model around
the stone, with consideration for every aspect of the stone and where
the stone may break when pressure is applied…I am finished arguing
over the use of glue… I will chalk this one up to personal
preference…I choose not too use it… that’s my opinion and I am
sticking to it… One thing I should say before I am finished with the
subject… My only intention was to let people out there know that
glue is not the first thing you grab when you are having trouble
tightening a stone… That seems to be the answer for most. I wanted to
make sure people knew that it’s the LAST resort for those who need
it…I know my customers would not appreciate having there stones
glued in… Marc Williams

Well, I guess the jury is in on this matter of gluing and I would
have to say… Weather you glue a stone in or not is ultimately going
to be up to you… However, for all of the people who defended my
opinion on not gluing, I say , I am glad to see there are actually
some people out there who do things the ethical way… To those who
choose to glue… well please at least try to tighten the stones
first… Marc

marc - a short response to your long email to me: you obviously assume
that those of us who use any glue are using JUST glue to set them.
frankly, i thought everyone reading the thread would KNOW that, like
my banker who wears suspenders & a belt, glue is simply to ensure the
integrity of the setting. & marc, sorry i got your knickers in a
knot, but people secure in their beliefs don’t let differing beliefs
bother them. ive

We recently set a bullet shaped stone in its bezel by gripping near
the top of the bezel with a collet mounted on the headstock of my
lathe. Closing the collet around the bezel squeezed the gold around
the stone nicely. This would work only with round stones of course.
The better the stone fits in its bezel (or any type of setting) the
less likely it will rattle, lowering the temptation to use glue and
lowering the risk of the the stone breaking.

John Winters <@johnjuan>

Faceted transparent stones are set without the use of glue. Glue will
lower the refractive index of the piece at the points of contact and
consequently will window, ugly. Transparent and very translucent
cabochons (especially with polished bottoms) will also show the glue,
also ugly. Opaque stones, on the other hand, will not window and glue
can be used for added security and will not detract from the stone’s
beauty. HOWEVER, make sure that you do not glue the stone directly to
the base or to the bezel. Laminate a piece of card stock, fine
sawdust, vinyl record , or other soft, fissile material between the
bottom of the stone and the base of your bezel cup. If the stone is
glued directly to the base, it will be very, very difficult to remove
for repairs and in some cases, the stone will chip when you do try to
extricate it. Will Estavillo, www.natureshop-gallery.com

Ive, Well Perfection is my middle name, and as far as doing "few"
things and not making a living, well I beg to differ… Just take a
gander at my web-site… My work speaks for itself… Jewelry is a very
expensive purchase, that is to say the REAL pieces not found on a Tv
shopping program. I believe that if someone is willing and able to
spend thousands of dollars or a few hundred dollars on a piece of
jewelry, than they should get what they pay for, and not something
that was “glued” together… I will say it again… and I mean it when
I say that gluing anything is just an excuse for laziness, or if not
laziness than a lack of knoweledge in what you are doing… And let me
tell you, I make a very fine living being as persistant toward
perfection as I am… And guess what, my customers come back for that
very reason…I make fine jewelry, not toys… I wish every jeweler
had the same ethics as I do, that way I wouldn’t have to dig the glue
out of somebodies 3 or 4 carat diamond bracelet… Respectfully, Marc
Williams

you’re right. glue is not a shortcut, it is an extra step. you
still have to carefully shape the metal and set the bezel tightly
against the stone. but in the case of bullets or other straight
sided stones, using epoxy will prevent the client from leveraging the
stone loose in its setting. with some transparent stones, it can be
used as a seal to prevent dirt or moisture from creeping under the
stone, where it would be visible (and unsightly). as for opals, many
boulder opals can benefit from the even bed that a thin layer of
epoxy will provide (pitch will work, too). the epoxy that i have
been using is resistant to both chemical and shock impact. it will
not prevent an opal from breaking, but i have seen that is does
absorb many of the shocks that would have otherwise led to the demise
of the stone. i am seeing fewer returns for broken opals and more to
have scratches removed.

since i am not feeling guilty for having taken the easy way out of a
tough setting job, i will freely volunteer to my client that their
opal has been set with epoxy. they can’t see it. if the epoxy is
visible…BAD! they’re happy knowing that the stone won’t fall
out. how we make that happen is of little concern to them. of
course, WE care. but if i was to spend a lot of time using my
goldsmithing skills to do what the glue will do in 5 minutes, they’d
refuse to pay me for my investment.

Mixing charcoal into the epoxy will give a nice, dark background to
some stones. If the epoxy does not come to the surface (like inlay
does), a little black (or any color you like) enamel paint will work.
It will slow the drying time, and the epoxy will not cure as hard.
This is often what I’m after anyway. Celini used colored foils
behind his stones (that was his claim to fame during his lifetime).

It’s nice to hear from goldsmiths that will take the extra time to do
the job right. Far too many are looking for an easy way out, and
there’s far too much CRAP on display out there.

d. zaruba, the elder

A methode has occured to me for a glueless mount. How about a simple
press fit. Make a bezel about .0005" smaller than the stone diameter
and press the stone in. Or heat the bezel and drop the stone in and
let the bezel heat shrink down to the stone. What do we think?? Be
warned that I once tried something like this with glass tubing with
heat srunken brass tubing around it and it seemed to create a stress
in the glass which made it fragile.

Looking forward:
Alan Shinn
http://www.sirius.com/~alshinn/

   ...Maybe I am nieve, I do my own wax models, therefore I make the
model around the stone, with consideration for every aspect of the
stone and where the stone may break when pressure is applied.. 

When you have the total freedom to do this, then you can almost
always avoid problems. Unfortunately, many times, a design must
conform to the wishes of people (customers, store sales people, etc)
who don’t properly understand the needs of the jewelry, despite one’s
best efforts at education. And in larger firms, usually the person
doing the wax model, or often even the goldsmith handmaking a
mounting, is not the one who gets to set the stone later…

.. My only intention was to let people out there know that glue is
not the first thing you grab when you are having trouble tightening
a stone.. That seems to be the answer for most. I wanted to make
sure people knew that it's the LAST resort for those who need it... 

I could not agree more strongly. It IS the LAST resort. MY only
point is that sometimes, when that’s the case, it can be an
intellegent and professionally justifiable choice.

Peter Rowe