If you want to know what is best for you try Brian Marshall’s class
at the Jewelry Art School in Stockton. He has the various forms of
equipment and gives a good intro to engraving - from bright cuts to
using the Power Hone.
In this argument about hand engraving versus and engraving by motorized tool, the false assumption is made that both methods produce the same result. They are not ! This fallacy stems from fundamental misunderstanding of what engraving is.
Leonid, as usual, you have missed the point.
I’ll spell it out again “If you can use a powered graver to cut time
without quality loss, why wouldn’t you use the powered tools?”.
“IF” you can use a powered tool and produce quality results, why
wouldn’t you?
And before you say “a hand tool is far superior to a power tool”
please consider the point.
Regards Charles A.
I don’t know about anyone else but I get tired of the argument that
always arises when power assisted engraving is mentioned.
The discussion re power assist vs. “hand” engraving is moot in this
instance as you can see from the original post -
Hi, I am new at this, but here goes. I am pretty much a self taught metalsmith and jewelry designer; at the present I am interested in expanding my skills by doing some engraving. I am interested in purchasing a power assisted hand engraver, either the GRS GraverMach AT or the Foredom PowerGraver 2293. I would appreciate some opinions from experienced engravers as to which one I should get. Thank you in advance for your advise.
The author does not ask which is better, does not mention “hand”
engraving and certainly does not suggest that power engraving is a
necessity as Pedro claims in the first post to appear after the
original -
Who told you that you need a power engraving system in order to expand your skills?
Perhaps the author has a disability which makes engraving without
the use of air power impossible and has already ruled that out. In
an ideal world many people who wish to take up engraving may want to
do it the traditional way but we do not live in an ideal world and
due to time constraints find that that is not feasible.
It is assumed that using graver in any capacity automatically qualifies as engraving. That is fallacy #2. Usage of tool, does not make on one a member the group of specialist using the same tool. For example: I have a surgical scalpel on my bench. Does it mean that I am a surgeon? Of course not. But somehow, it is assumed that if one uses graver to remove extraneous metal, such act qualifies him/her as an engraver. The truth is - it is not
The surgeon becomes a surgeon through aquiring his skills over time
and experience (and also a medical qualification). One does not need
a qualification to be an engraver, however time and experience are
required.
The fallacy #3 is that while is acknowledged there is a difference in the results, it is so small that nobody would care. This is over generalization. Some people would care a great deal. And some people would pay a great deal for that difference. When we discussing hand engraving, the connoisseurship cannot be discounted.
You are absolutely correct - there can be a noticable difference
between “hand” and power assisted engraving - the latter is often so
much better looking!
I invite anyone with an open mind to look at the works displayed on
some of the following sites. All of the engravers use power assist -
sometimes in conjunction with “hand” engraving. It is hard to see
detail on some of the pictures on the screen but then again there
are many close-ups of the work. BTW these guys started out engraving
with the traditional tools but migrated to the power assist.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/rk
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/rl
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ma
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/rm
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/rn
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ro
Marie - Good luck with your venture. One thing which is often
commented on is the need to have a graver with consistant angles
suited to the work you are doing and keeping them sharp. You
probably don’t have weeks to work on this so here are another couple
of sites with tools which may help you there -
Tools make jewelers happy.
Except when they break 
Tools make jewelers happy.
And broke.
I'll spell it out again "If you can use a powered graver to cut time without quality loss, why wouldn't you use the powered tools?".
There is a very simple answer to that. Power assisted engraving
cannot match hand engraving. Even the term is wrong. There is no
power assisted engraving. There is only power assisted metal
removing, which may approximate appearance of true engraving from
time to time, but cannot ever match it.
Leonid Surpin
One does not need a qualification to be an engraver, however time and experience are required.
Really? I wonder where do you derive your from.
Incidentally, I look at your pictures. I did not see any engraving.
There were some scrolls, cuts were kind of rough, even on the
picture. Is that what you call engraving?
Leonid Surpin
“IF” you can use a powered tool and produce quality results, why
wouldn’t you?
And before you say "a hand tool is far superior to a power tool" please consider the point.
While I do quite enjoy using my Lindsay air graver handpiece, Leonid
does have one good point here, that may not have been as clearly
stated as might have been.
It’s not so much that the hand powered tool produces better results
than the air driven tool (though if the air driven tool is used too
aggressively, it can result in a choppy looking cut rather than a
smooth clean one, but this is avoidable with proper use of the power
tool). Both tools, used correctly, with a properly sharpened graver,
can give good results.
However, and this point can be overlooked, in order to produce good
results with the hand tool, somewhat greater care needs to be learned
in sharpening, and some finesse with tweaks to sharpening that aren’t
so advantageous with the powered tool, also gets learned. So learning
to engrave by hand will tend to force the engraver to achieve greater
skill in sharpening. Then, likewise, learning to get the right
results by hand will also force the engraver to learn proper
technique in order to fully control the tool and the cut. Along the
way, this longer learning curve will also give the engraver time to
more fully study the aesthetic aspects of engraving, so the patterns
cut will be better thought out.
With the power handpieces and modern sharpening aids, it’s quite
possible for a beginner to be cutting in metal within the first hour,
and be happy with the results. But that does not mean that result is
competent engraving. and therein is the crux of the point Leonid
makes. While a competent engraver can use the power handpieces,
perhaps to advantage in speed and effort, the shortcuts in learning
that the power handpieces make possible also make it somewhat more
likely that the student engraver ends up thinking they do good work
when in fact, they have not mastered the aesthetic and subtle
technical aspects of what separates good engraving from less so. The
differences may not be apparent to that student, but if one is
learning by hand, the differences are partly forced upon the student
by the need for better technique in handling the tools.
With many techniques in jewelry making, as in other fields, one of
the most effective aids to learning is failure and mistakes. Things
go wrong when things are done wrong, and one is forced to learn the
right way, as the need becomes apparent. With a powered tool that
helps avoid some of those errors, the student may not realize that
they are not really doing things the best way. The tool powers
through the metal anyway, and appears to work fine, so the student
never figures out that it could look even better.
And then, there is also the factor that if an engraver learns only
with powered tools, one day when the air compressor breaks down,
you’re SOL until you fix that. With hand engraving, you’re less
dependent on complex technology in order to do your work.
Engraving of course is not the only area of our field where this is
true. How many of us can still figure out how to drill a hole when
the flex shaft breaks or we break our last drill bit? I know one
jeweler who, in a pinch, makes his own saw blades from a steel wire
with a chisel. Not exactly the equal to a fine swiss blade, but it
will cut metal if he needs to, and has broken his last commercial
blade (or, as he used to do, lives on a remote Philippine island
where an order from Rio may take quite some time to arrive…)
Anyway.
For what it’s worth, although I agree with some in this discussion
that perhaps Leonids position could be a bit more flexible, he does
indeed have a valid point here. You can learn to engrave with a power
handpiece. But if you learn it the old way with hand driven tools
first, although it will take you longer, your end understanding of
the skill may end up superior in depth, and if you THEN switch to a
power handpiece, it will be to fully take advantage of the added
capabilities of those tools, rather than because you have no other
option, not knowing how to use the hand tools properly.
Peter Rowe
There is a very simple answer to that. Power assisted engraving cannot match hand engraving. Even the term is wrong. There is no power assisted engraving. There is only power assisted metal removing, which may approximate appearance of true engraving from time to time, but cannot ever match it.
“IF” you can use a powered graver to cut time “without quality
loss”, why woudn’t you use the powered tool?"
You’re listening, but not hearing aren’t you.
Okay I’ll put it in another way.
If you can use a powered graver to cut time “with quality loss”, why
would you use the powered tool?"
If you agree with this statement, then you agree with the first one,
because they say the same thing.
Regards Charles A.
P.S. Also didn’t say power assisted engraving.
It's not so much that the hand powered tool produces better results than the air driven tool (though if the air driven tool is used too aggressively, it can result in a choppy looking cut rather than a smooth clean one, but this is avoidable with proper use of the power tool). Both tools, used correctly, with a properly sharpened graver, can give good results.
I have no problems with learning how to use one tool to make you
better with another, that’s fine and I agree with that.
An example, a simple blacksmiths hammer is a fine tool, but a power
hammer allows the smith to do more, faster without quality loss, and
in some cases it’s an improvement, because the smith doesn’t get as
tired, and miss strike.
Now if a power hammer didn’t perform as well as or better than a
hand hammer people still might use them but spend more time cleaning
up the job.
Mind you you really don’t appreciate a power hammer if you don’t
know how to shift metal with a blacksmiths hammer in the first place.
The point I was trying to make was that “if a powered tool, any
powered tool, can produce the same results or better than a hand
tool, as determined by the operator, why wouldn’t you use the powered
tool?”
Even Leonid uses a powered hand piece to drill holes.
Regards Charles A.
There is only power assisted metal removing, which may approximate appearance of true engraving from time to time, but cannot ever match it.
Really? Kind of arrogant, I think, Leonid. I know what you’re
saying, and for some less skilled people, it may be true. But such a
blanket statment doesn’t for me, hold water. Go take a look at Steve
Lindsay’s web site and his work. Then just try to convince anyone on
the list that Steve’s work doesn’t qualify as true engraving. I’d
frankly be surprised if even you could match his work, with or
without a power assited tool. If I’m wrong, I apologize. But before
I believe it, I want to see images of your work showing that caliber
of skill. Got any?
Peter Rowe
You're listening, but not hearing aren't you.
I understand your point perfectly. The problem is that you are
setting up a hypothetical which is flawed. It is common logical
error. If A is true and A is like B than B has to be true. The problem
here is that A is not like B. And no amount of rephrasing is going to
change this basic fact.
Leonid Surpin
Neither power assisted nor hand gravers will produce fine
engraving… unless one has first been properly trained in the
art/skill of engraving.
If cost is an issue then buying a few hand gravers and learning to
use them correctly and professionally is all that a person needs to
learn the foundation skills.
As far as instruction goes if one has plenty of time and money then
attending engraving workshops is a quick way to get going.
If a person doesn’t have a lot of money and is going to do most of
their learning at home, then buying video instruction is a good way
to go because it allows a student to watch a technique and then pause
the video to try the technique themself. Then the student is able to
rewind the video to watch the technique again and then pause once
again to try performing the technique again. The student can do this
over and over until they learn to perform the technique well. Then
the student can move -on in the same manner- to learn the next
technique and the next and the next until all the engraving skills
have been thoroughly learned. In essence instructional videos provide
one on one learning - private lessons in your studio - from a Master
Engraver.
Once a student is proficient with the engraving skills they can then
choose to use either hand gravers or power assisted gravers,
whichever their budget allows. Hand gravers work especially well with
softer metals such as copper, brass, silver and gold. Power assisted
gravers are particularly good to use when engraving hard metals such
as iron and steel.
An important point for a person to consider is whether or not they
will like being an engraver. Before spending thousands of dollars on
engraving tools, which is very easy to do especially if one purchases
power hones and power assisted gravers, it can be a good idea to
purchase the basic hand equipment needed and learn to use it.
Engraving is a discipline that requires work to learn and commitment
to maintain. According to Master Engraver Heinar Tamme, learning
engraving skills is not like learning to ride a bicycle. Engraving
skills, once learned, must be practiced on a daily basis to maintain
the feel for the art.
Heinar said that every time he came back to his studio after being
on vacation, he had to spend several hours just practicing engraving
to get the ‘feel’ for it back in his hands. According to Heinar this
was true all during his career. It didn’t matter if he had been
engraving for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years, if he didn’t spend time
engraving on an almost daily basis, he had to practice to get the
feel back again before he could continue to produce professional
quality work.
The Beginner’s Set instructional videos he produced specify the
basic hand tools needed as well as how to prepare and use them to
learn the basic engraver’s skills. Once a person has the basic tools
and learns to use them they are then in a position to decide if
engraving is a skill/profession they want to continue to pursue. If
they do, they then have the foundation to determine if they want to
pursue additional instruction or if they want to make a large
investment in engraving equipment. If the student finds engraving is
not for them, then they haven’t spent a lot of money on tools that
they won’t be using anymore.
One of the main reasons I purchased Heinar Tamme’s instructional
videos was because they got me going quickly with a minimum
investment. The instruction was akin to the complete instruction
Heinar received as an engraver’s apprentice in Europe, in other words
it is professional quality instruction that builds skills logically
one upon the other. These are the reasons I still sell them today
through Rio Grande… great instruction at a minimum initial
investment even after purchasing the basic hand tools the videos
recommend.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/rioengravingdvd
Again, once the skills of the professional engraver have been
learned, the engraver can then produce quality work with either basic
hand powered gravers or with the more costly power assisted tools.
Joe Bloyd, Bloomington, IN
Really? I wonder where do you derive your from. Incidentally, I look at your pictures. I did not see any engraving. There were some scrolls, cuts were kind of rough, even on the picture. Is that what you call engraving?
Funny… I have looked and looked for images of your work Leonid but
all I have come up with are the Eternity Ring and the Coronet
Cluster.
Where could I find more images of your work? It would greatly help
to see examples from a master goldsmith. Especially engraving.
Andy Cooperman
Go take a look at Steve Lindsay's web site and his work. Then just try to convince anyone on the list that Steve's work doesn't qualify as true engraving. I'd frankly be surprised if even you could match his work, with or without a power assited tool. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But before I believe it, I want to see images of your work showing that caliber of skill. Got any?
I have seen videos with him cutting. And he takes shortcuts with his
cutting technique. You can convince yourself of that if you watch
attentively. Engraving requires cutting either clockwise, or counter-
clockwise. Cutting in both direction is considered in bad taste.
What how he cuts letters like “s” and you see shall see it. Sorry for
puncturing this bubble.
Idea that work of an engraver can be evaluated from website images is
sheer nonsense. I am sure that mr. Lindsay is a talented engraver,
but he is taking shortcuts in his videos. Everybody can form
individual opinion what it means.
This business about “got any pictures” What I can or cannot do is
beside the point. I share my work with my friends and my clients, and
nobody else. I absolutely reject premise that in order to participate
in debate, one has to prove some level of technical proficiency.
However, you can get some idea of my technical abilities from my
trailers. If further proof is required, you are going to have to
purchase my DVDs. That is all I can offer.
Leonid Surpin
An example, a simple blacksmiths hammer is a fine tool, but a power hammer allows the smith to do more, faster without quality loss, and in some cases it's an improvement, because the smith doesn't get as tired, and miss strike.
I agree with on point about power hammer. If I would do
blacksmithing, I use one myself. But there is no parallel with
engraving. The function of hammer is to move metal. Once movement is
done, the traces are eliminated by filing. Even if hammered finish
is desirable, it is still an add on. The goal of blacksmithing is to
make a form.
Engraving is fundamentally different. Let’s take lettering for
example. If the goal is simply to mark something with some letter
combination, than nobody in his right mind is going to use engraving.
There are many ways in which the task can be accomplished easier.
Engraving is used when a particular appearance of the cut is
required. It is not enough simply to draw letter “A”. It has to drawn
in a particular way. The cut itself becomes a goal. To draw a
comparative parallel, think about painting. If all you care is to
have something on a wall, than one buys a reproduction, which can
look somewhat like an original. If one cares for brush strokes, than
one either buys original, or commissions hand painted reproduction.
That is exactly the difference between motorized tool and hand
engraving.
Leonid Surpin
With the power handpieces and modern sharpening aids, it's quite possible for a beginner to be cutting in metal within the first hour, and be happy with the results. But that does not mean that result is competent engraving. and therein is the crux of the point Leonid makes.
Peter - this is not now the point of discussion but Leonid’s refusal
to accept that engraving can be done by anything but a scorper in a
handle powered by nothing other than the hand.
One does not need a qualification to be an engraver, however time
and experience are required.
Really? I wonder where do you derive your from. Incidentally, I look at your pictures. I did not see any engraving. There were some scrolls, cuts were kind of rough, even on the picture. Is that what you call engraving?
Two answers required here - where does one go to aquire a
qualification to be an engraver. FEGA offers the title of Master
Engraver upon completing their compentacy based examinations but I
am unaware of any other apart from completing an engraving
apprenticeship - how common are these in the US? Does one have to
complete a jewellery apprenticeship in the US to be called a
jeweller? If so then perhaps half of the members of this forum who
earn their living by making jewellery are not jewellers but “someone
who earns their income by making jewellery”. That would look good on
a business card! (And yes - I am a jeweller having completed a 4
year apprenticeship in Australia)
Second point - the websites I directed “people with open minds to”
display great examples of engraving. Yes - that is what I call
engraving - and I am not alone.
ENGRAVE - To incise (letters, designs, etc) on a hard surface (The
Macquarie Dictionary)
INCISE - To cut into: cut marks (The Macquarie Dictionary)
ENGRAVE/ENGRAVING - As used by freehand engravers, this term means
the cutting of a design or motif into metal with a graver, chisel,
or, burin. (C. Roger Bleile - Glossary)
This brings into question whether you consider the artisans who work
with hammer and chisel are engravers or metal removalists. Their
work does not display the mirror reflection that bright cutting does
(and that Leonid favours) but due to the nature of the technique has
a stop-start quality from the chisel being hit.
Leonid - did you take up the offer given by Brian M from Stockton to
visit his workshop and try out the various tools available? Did you
try a power assist? Did you then turn off the air and continue only
to find that the same actions and skills were involved? Did you stop
removing metal and suddenly commence engraving?
Let us leave this discussion there. In the numerous times you have
put forward your opinion as to what constitues engraving as a whole
(I am not even bringing up “hand” engraving) I cannot remember
anyone else agreeing with your definitions.
Roger
Go take a look at Steve Lindsay's web site and his work. Then just try to convince anyone on the list that Steve's work doesn't qualify as true engraving. I'd frankly be surprised if even you could match his work, with or without a power assited tool. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But before I believe it, I want to see images of your work showing that caliber of skill. Got any?
Perspective on what is “proper” technique depends on what type of
training one receives unless the person is self taught.
I am pretty sure that technique taught in European countries would be
closer in technique with each other than self taught in U.S.
If there is a difference in the quality of classically trained
engraver’s work compared with someone self taught, would an untrained
person be able to notice?
I see a lot of jewelry work that is sold that is not produced with
quality of design and/or craftsmanship and would have been smashed by
someone who was responsible for training goldsmiths in Europe.
Perhaps it might be understood that a chef classically trained in
U.S. or Europe would be similarly trained and what was produced by
classically trained chef would be similar to each other, but very
different from a self taught cook, and those not exposed to the
quality of of classically trained chef might not perceive the
difference.
Restaurants that have good cooks cannot get away with charging the
prices that a restaurant that has a classically trained chef.
If you are classically trained, do you dumb down your product to the
level of what your customer is capable of understanding? If you do
not know what excellence is you will be happy with mediocrity. You
will also only achieve mediocre pay.
Ignorance is bliss?
I am mostly self taught, and I regret how I learned. I have been
aware of the limitations I have had to struggle with, the learning
curves I have suffered without a competent teacher that set a
criteria for me to achieve that would have been a foundation to build
on.
When I have taken a workshop or class and learned the proper
technique, I have observed the difference in the quality of my work,
and reduced the struggle I had to go through to achieve the result.
Classically trained have a different level of expectation for what
they produce than self taught.
My opinion is that the self taught seem to think there is freedom in
breaking the rules. It is true that there is freedom in breaking the
rules, but you have to know them first or you are not aware of how
your work suffers from the lack of knowledge.
No where is this more evident in our current environment, CADCAM
produced by a bench jeweler or CADCAM produced by someone with no
practical bench knowledge. Not knowing the rules of how things go
together and why they go together the way they should can only be a
limitation.
Richard Hart G.G.
Denver, Co.
Funny... I have looked and looked for images of your work Leonid but all I have come up with are the Eternity Ring and the Coronet Cluster.
I am glad that you have found my DVDs entertaining. Personally, I
would not describe the contents as “funny”, but everybody is
different.
I have addressed the issue of pictures in my response to Peter.
There is no need to rehash it. What I want to know is how is it
became about me. I thought we were discussing differences of hand
engraving versus motorized imitation. Shall I take as the indication
that no cogent argument can be made, so Ad Hominem to the rescue.
Leonid Surpin
The problem here is that A is not like B. And no amount of rephrasing is going to change this basic fact.
Well you don’t really understand, but that’s okay, that line of
discussion is fruitless anyway.
So “your” point is a powered tool will never match a hand tool? Or
to be fair a powered graver will “never” match a hand graver.
A basic fact to consider is that when a powered tool exceeds a hand
tool in function and quality people will use them.
A powered graver may in the future exceed the ability of a hand
graver of an expert such as yourself.
If and/or when that day comes would you use a hand tool in
preference to a powered tool?
Regards Charles A.