Salaries for Jewelry Designers

Just because a lot of wanna-bes are claiming the title of jewelry
designer, it does not diminish what the real job actually requires.
It is insulting that those who do not understand the title continue
to denigrate the real, very demanding, job. Just for the record, in
every jewelry manufacturing company I have ever been associated
with a bench jeweler is a position below the jewelry designer in
expectations, skill, pay and artistry. If you don't have the skills
to be a bench jeweler you should not call yourself a jewelry
designer. 

I’m just curious as to where the people who make jewelry from
alternative materials fit in? Not all jewelry involves metalsmithing
Is it that one is not able to consider things made from alternative
materials “jewelry”? or that the makers should consider themselves
as something else (such as “art jeweler”, “craft jeweler”, “student”
or hobbyist")?

A while ago, I posted a call for the innovators to speak up, those
who had an original idea. I got one reply (Karen,I liked your fish a
lot by the way). Was it that there were true innovators out there who
didn’t speak because they felt someone might say they had no right to
say that they should be included? I was saddened by the fact that I
only got one reply. I know there are others out there and I really
wanted to hear their opinion because I have much admiration for their
achievements.

In another thread, I learned that I should not be in some of the
larger, high-profile shows because I am “subsidized”. (This means my
husband works). I guess when I get to that first big show, I
shouldn’t plan on making friends right off.

In another thread, I learned that I should not be in some of the
larger, high-profile shows because someone else makes the button on
my cuff bracelet. I would say I could just lie, but it’s not in my
character.

So much time has been spent in this thread trying to downplay the
achievements of those who just want to make what they enjoy making
and (hopefully) sell it. Possibly, if more time was spent on the
achieving part and less on the insulting part, more people would have
answered the call for innovators.

Just because you end you post with “my 2 cents” doesn’t mean that it
was any less hurtful. There is plenty of room for honesty, but I
don’t have a lot of tolerance for the intentionally degrading and
hurtful post.

Kim Starbard
Jewelry Designer
Cove Beads

I really wish that this thread would be put to rest on this site. It
is so tiring to hear all sides of the argument over and over. It is
getting really to be just a little hot around the edges, don’t you
all think?

Cameron, I agree with you about a designer is a designer. Yes, Elsa
Peretti was a designer as was Jean Schlumberger, no doubt about
that. They also had rows upon rows of old school technicians helping
them with technical issues. And I don’t think Elsa Peretti just
walked into Tiffany’s one day and said 'Hello I am a Jewelry designer
give me a job".

But, Cameron, to take the attitude and tone that your letter seems
to have is offensive as well defensive. Perhaps you are offended
because you have little of the technical skills that the others are
suggesting that you develop. Or perhaps you are impatient to get
going in your career. Or perhaps you just like to be contentious. Who
can say?

It is not being pedantic to say that a person should learn how to
make jewelry before they label themselves a designer. Nor is it
pedantic to say that you will have to put in some time. It is sound
advice. As I have said before, the proof is in the pudding. If your
work is great, fantastic, you’re a “Designer”. But if not, everyone
will see that as well, and the only one fooled by the title will be
you.

Do labels really matter? Especially to someone who is ranting about
" Society being riddled with pedantic paths". But maybe I am
misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

So… let’s all let it rest. Everyone is right on some level about
this thread. I think we should go on to bigger and less contentious
issues.

Dennis

No, actually you won't be hard pressed at all to find a single
soul because I'm more than happy to state that David Yurman has
about as much original design talent as a turtle. 

Thank you so much to Daniel and to David Huffman, you took me back
to my old days as an apprentice on Jeweler’s Row, when one of the
jewelers would rant and rant about David Yurman.

I was hoping someone would respond to the comment about Yurman.

Elaine

Elaine Luther
Metalsmith, Certified PMC Instructor
http://www.CreativeTextureTools.com
Hard to Find Tools for Metal Clay

A while ago, I posted a call for the innovators to speak up, those
who had an original idea. I got one reply (Karen,I liked your fish
a lot by the way).... I was saddened by the fact that I only got one
reply. 

What was the question? Could be a timing thing, or people not feeling
their work qualified, or they did, but they didn’t have a good
picture. Or they had a really cool piece, but it’s about to be in a
show somewhere and can’t be posted on Orchid just yet.

Just because you end you post with "my 2 cents" doesn't mean that
it was any less hurtful.

You can’t take things on this list personally. You post something,
and people answer your question. Maybe by the 3rd post, you get your
answer, and you’re like, “thanks, cool, I got my answer.” But
somebody said something in a post that got them thinking, and they
answer that, and somebody else piggy backs onto that post, and
pretty soon, it’s totally not about you any more.

It’s just become a discussion in general about a topic that someone
– and most of the time – no one can remember who, brought up.

This has happened to me, where the discussion went way off, and I
was going, “hey, that’s not me, I’m not like that, you’ve got it all
wrong!” But I didn’t bother to post a response about whatever it was,
because it just wasn’t about me.

Your work is lovely, by the way, Kim.

Elaine

(Who just realized yesterday that Lisa in Topenga and Lisa Orlando
are not the same person. Which one of you has the sister named Lisa?
And how on earth did I mix you two up?)

Elaine Luther
Metalsmith, Certified PMC Instructor
http://www.CreativeTextureTools.com
Hard to Find Tools for Metal Clay

I think there are some mis-understanings going on on this
discussion.

Those on the list who do bench work for hire have legit. complaints
about people who call themselves, whatever they call themselves, and
are exceedingly annoying to work with because they ask for things
that are against the laws of physics.

The complaints is more that they’re under-qualified and dilettantes
and really a pain to deal with as customers than that they’re
calling themselves something that they don’t deserve to be called.

If you’ve worked “in the trade,” you know who these people are and
what they’re like and why they drive you crazy. If you’re not in the
trade, you haven’t met them.

Those on the list who are more in the category of “craftsperson” or
“art jeweler” or “person who does shows either for a living or not”
have taken offense to these descriptions, but, I don’t think you are
the ones being described, at least way back in the original
discussion, which has gotten pretty convoluted and become something
else entirely.

I apologize if I’ve misunderstood, but I really think that some
people are talking over other people’s heads and not realizing that
they are not the ones being talked about.

Nanz is certainly right about the necessary training and experience
to become the kind of designer who works for a manufacturer, and
that was a helpful description.

But most of us don’t know that person with that job. That’s not who
was originally being complained about, if I’m keeping my threads
straight, it’s the independents who use trade services without
enough knowledge to use those services intelligently.

I’ve worked in both fields, in the trade, at the bench, as an
appraiser and on the craft/art fair side.

There you go, my 2 cents. Hopefully I’ve clarified, and not set off
another firestorm.

Elaine

Elaine Luther
Metalsmith, Certified PMC Instructor
http://www.CreativeTextureTools.com
Hard to Find Tools for Metal Clay

Here’s a thought about the designer vs. trained whatever argument:
When was the last time you saw an architect with a bricklayer’s
trowel or a jackhammer in his hands ? One thinks, the other makes.

Brian Corll
Vassar Gems

I approached this topic specific to the absolute nature of the
original post. I was not going to repeat what I have already written
(long ago) about the necessary collaboration between design and
technical skill; nor would I be able to add any new insight or
improve upon Mr. Revere’s recent post on the topic. I am not
defensive, I am just disagreeing with one aspect of one post.

So, in the best interests of Orchid: Let’s all just agree with the
following so we can put this tired, discussed-ad-nauseum topic to
rest:

  1. Anyone can be a designer; but not everyone can be a good designer

  2. One should always understand the physical nature of what one is
    working with as a designer. This will help ensure:

    a) quality design
    b) wearability
    c) longevity and durability

  3. A smart designer may rely on the strengths/opinions of more
    technically skilled people. A foolish designer won’t.

  4. Yurman and Peretti are no one’s favorites (by any stretch)

In deference to Nanz and narrowing the parameters in which her
criteria apply:

  1. Experience as a bench jeweler and ability to forecast future
    trends are necessary for anyone wishing to work for a jewelry
    corporation in the capacity of “designer”

  2. If you are going to assume you can earn $512k* as a jewelry
    designer for a corporation; you should have #5.

In deference to life:

  1. Murphy’s Law: There are exceptions to every rule.

  2. It takes hard work/trial and error to be good at anything.

  3. Life is short; find joy where you can.

Now, may we please move onto more constructive topics??

Cameron

*Note: I pulled $512k out of a previous post since I think, and
correct me if I am wrong, this whole thread started with one simple
question… a question identified, no less, by the subject line.

All my dear respected Orchian friends, my quarter cent.

We require a positive attitude and respect for all, whether they are
expert (designers, goldsmiths, etc) or not, they are our brothers and
sisters.

What we require is Aspiration (sharing, giving out., it means
bringing something out; like the flower out of the seed,etc).

Its a saying in our language (Gujarati). a partially filled utensil
spills, ( person who claims to be knowledgeable is a dead person,
because knowledge is a mechanical accumulation; while learning ( a
verb) is a continuos process. It is a process like river, always
moving from known towards the unknown, always ready to explore.
Knowledge stops, learning never stops.

A man like Socrates is a man of learning. Even at the moment of
death he is still learning. When he was given the poison, his
disciples started crying and weeping. He said, “Don’t miss this
opportunity to learn something about death.”

Socrates remained alert to the very last moment. He went on telling
his disciples to the very last moment what was happening to him. He
was learning, he was teaching.

A real master is always a disciple. A real master is always
learning. He never claims knowledge.

We are here on this forum to share our learning experiences, in a
positive, healthy way, so every body is benefited and happy.

I see there are intelligent people on this forum. My Master says.
The more stupid you are, the sooner you become knowledgeable. The
more intelligent you are, the more difficult it is to become
knowledgeable - because to become knowledgeable means you have come
to the very end of your intelligence.You are finished, you are spent.

In 1996, I enrolled for a workshop on, Designing Jewelry for
Production.15 days full time,Advance Jewellery Designing by MR.
George Bechert,Goldsmith and Design Consultant IGEP (Indo German
Export Promotion Project). At Jewellery Product Development Center in
Mumbai, a project by The Gems and Jewellery export promotion council
of India.

During the workshop Mr. George, narrated his experience, when he was
working as a jewellery designer in one jewellery factory in
Pforzime( Germany)

He said that during his four years in this factory, he did 5000
designs sketches, out of which 500 hundred were selected, from this
500 designs only 200 were finally selected for production.

At the final day of the workshop,which was a presentation day for us
15 students. I told in my presentation speech the above experience of
our Master,Mr George that every factory must have at least one Key
person Like Mr.Georege who is a total person, a Goldsmith and a
Designer. Mr. George (In Pforzime) Designs and fabricates one of a
kind of unique jewellery for his/her customers which are never
reproduced.

May God bless us all with Total Health, Physical, Mental,Spiritual
and social.

Strive to be happy and help every body to be happy.

Umesh

consider David Yurman, Elsa Peretti and Jean Schlumberger

“designers”. Oh and by the way, these three had no formal jewelry
training and were never bench jewelers.

Yes but they hire designers who know the business, which validates
your point that if you truly follow you dream there's always a
way.

With the above mentioned “designers” you are buying the equivalent
of a art print, not the original work. I really don’t know what their
bench experience is, but the work that each of them produces is not
exceptional. Admire them for their success, but bear in mind that they
are the Fords and Walmarts of the jewelry world.

Rick Hamilton

Hi Dennis and others;

I really wish that this thread would be put to rest on this site. 

I’m not ready to let it rest, I guess. But this will be my last on
this one. Just delete the posts before you read them. I’m doing that
with the ongoing Nitric Acid Uses posts.

But the issue, as I see it, is this. Some people achieve their
success by their accomplishments, and others get where they are
because of their political connections, money, and by sheer luck.
Yurman and Perretti were the latter. David Yurman was an art fair
jeweler, one among thousands, and his work was pretty good, but not
earth shattering. Along came a bored, retired former executive of a
huge jewelry chain who hand picked a few people like Yurman, Boin,
and others, and the “designer jeweler” was born. Perretti had a
friendship with a Vogue editor named Carolyn Donovin, who shoe-horned
her into Tiffany’s. Quote Perretti, “nobody does favors like that any
more”. I don’t know Shumberger or whoever it was.

Now we see the results, after Hurricane Katrina, of what happens
when well connected cronies get into positions of responsibility they
aren’t qualified for. I’m living proof of the minor misery self
proclaimed “designers” can create when they don’t know their jobs but
want to put their poorly thought out ideas into reality. I have to be
very careful to screen my potential accounts so that I don’t waste a
lot of time and money on these people.

And therein lies the root of this, at times contentious, discussion.
A problem with titles. Us old school types have an idea of a jewelry
designer that is what we are used to, that is, people who have always
held the title and wouldn’t have had a place in the industry if they
didn’t have the training. The branded “jewelry designers” of late are
usurping the credibility that always belied a proper background in
jewelry design and the applicable technologies. A whole population of
eager amateurs are trying to get in on what they see as an easy way
to a fun, successful career. I have no problem with that, per se.
Because it’s not about jewelry design, it’s about marketing. But it
has rendered the title “jewelry designer” pretty much meaningless,
and this doesn’t get to happen in other fields. Just because it’s
happened in my area of expertise, doesn’t mean I have to like it or
accept it.

I appreciate what it takes to make a good beaded necklace, but
really, I think I could get pretty good at it in a couple weeks (not
that I don’t have a lot of background crossover). What I and others
on this forum do would take a talented and diligent student at least
a decade of practice (at low wages) before they’d be able to come up
with a decent product. And when we used to deal with jewelry
designers, we didn’t expect to have to field wildly unworkable ideas
or encounter people who thought there was something wrong with our
skills if we couldn’t pull off their fantasies.

So, if you do beads, that’s fine and I don’t care what you call
yourself. That’s not who I’m ranting at. Here’s a real life case of
the kind I hate. No real names, of course.

She makes stupid looking pieces that are technical nightmares. The
stubborn old Syrian tradeshop owner needs the money, so he passes on
these nightmares to his employees, who pull their hair out trying to
do the impossible. She gets a big write up in Lapidary Journal, where
she bloviates about “working at the bench”, which means working at
her kitchen table with some pencils. She titles her monstrosities
with long titles that read like bad 1960’s counterculture poetry,
such as “I Saw the Moon and I Thought of Love and Lonliness” or some
such drek. Nowhere in the article is the old Syrian master craftsman
mentioned. She is entirely full of herself, and if she hadn’t come
into money to buy her own gallery to sell her stuff, she’d be sitting
in the muddy pathways of some art fair in a Podunk backwater town in
Connecticut, slowly going broke.

I’ve written an article for Jewelry in Fashion Trends magazine about
this situation, and the second installment will illuminate a number
of career paths for people who want to be jewelry designers, both old
school and the new, casual participants. There will be pictures of my
own designs, and one of my ugly puss too. Let’s see if others think I
have a leg to stand on after they see what I really do for a living.

David L. Huffman

Here's a thought about the designer vs. trained whatever argument:
When was the last time you saw an architect with a bricklayer's
trowel or a jackhammer in his hands ? One thinks, the other makes. 

Worst possible comparison. I have a ton of customers who are
architects and they can be some of the worst possible people to do
work for. They fall into two distinct categories: The minority come
into my shop, love the work and buy something out of the case. The
majority come into the shop and want me to create a building that
someone has to wear on their finger. Buildings just don’t fit on
people’s fingers. But architects don’t really care about that. They
just want you to build the building to put on someone’s fingers. And
when you tell them it won’t work and why it won’t work, they just
keep insisting that it will and make you do it anyway. And then their
fiancee comes in and yells at you for making such an unwearable ugly
piece of junk.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

Hi Brian;

When was the last time you saw an architect with a bricklayer's
trowel or a jackhammer in his hands ? One thinks, the other makes. 

You’d be amazed at how many architects come up with ideas that drive
contractors and people in the building trades crazy. On the other
hand, I’ve seen contractors build things that, while properly
constructed, are downright butt-ugly. Similar thing happens between
designers and jewelers, the same problems going in both directions.

David L. Huffman

Carolyn,

A very old and wise person once told me that "when a man knocks
another to the ground it is so he can feel bigger and more
important, because if he stood toe to toe with the other person, he
would not measure up but would be found wanting.

I agree with you in your post, there is always someone out there
ditchin’ others. Instructors do it, business people do it, even good
church going people do it. Everyone has done it at some time in
their live. Some do it a lot more than others. I know some who
honestly believe that they do nothing wrong, and everyone else is an
idiot! But, I guess when it comes down to the core reason behind the
cause, I would think its like a personal uplifting when you don’t
feel confident in yourself. Its just part of being human I suspect. I
also like it the way Arlo Guthrie put it in his song " Pause to Mr.
Clause"

During these hard days and hard weeks, everybody always has it bad
once in a while. You know, you have a bad time of it, and you
always have a friend who says Hey man, you ain't got it that bad.
Look at that guy. And you at that guy, and he's got it worse than
you. And it makes you feel better that there's somebody that's got
it worse than you. But think of the last guy. For one minute, think
of the last guy. Nobody's got it worse than that guy. Nobody in the
whole world. That guy...he's so alone in the world that he doesn't
even have a street to lay in for a truck to run him over. He's out
there with nothin'. Nothin's happenin' for that cat.

Theres a lot of people out there, in the past, present and I would
bet in the future, that never have a real day of design education in
thier life, but they seem to make wonderful designs. Some would base
thier success as a designer or craftspersons on the amount of money
they make, some would base it on personal pride or something else. If
you think about it, many of the greatest artist and craftspeople of
history, the ones we praise and idolize the most, never made a living
doing their work. It wasnt until thier death did people pay money for
thier works.

Thats my 2 cents and a nickel worth. :smiley:

Dan

That's not who I'm ranting at. Here's a real life case of the kind
I hate. No real names, of course. 

Dittos. Here is another example of a designer:

I have a friend who is a lapidary. One of his former customers was a
guy who would buy slabs on the cheap (from grieving widows, the
economically distressed, etc) and have the lapidary cut them for a
couple of bucks a cab, and glue them on paper cards. The reason for
the glue was that the customer would then pencil -sketch a “design”
like maybe a triangle around a triangular cab, put a note on it like
“pendant,” and ship it off to Indonesia, where it would be set in
silver for three bucks a piece.

He then peddled it in the US, saying something along the lines of
“yes, I have a factory overseas, but I am the designer.” He later
dumped my friend’s services in favor of a third-world operation where
the stones were cut more cheaply, less artfully. But then, he had
less than $4 per piece invested in his “designer” sterling jewelry,
which he could pimp at shows as one-of-a-kind pieces direct from the
designer.

Lee

Ohhhh man oh man. To David L.Huffman, Daniel R. Spirer, thanks for
the belly laugh, and the fire. I agree. Talent, genius, inspiration,
creativity, existing outside the box.

As far as I can tell, aside from blind luck, perseverance, and
output, the main factors in salary and near everything else is what
you expect/demand. There are plenty of folks scraping by in all
trades with and without talent, and plenty making a good living, with
and without talent.

Perceived value and mass values. How much incredible design and
innovation is created by “one shot” and anonymous folks who never
had any “training.” How much is broadcast by folks that can produce
and run with an idea? If you expect to be paid well and believe you
are worth it, you are much more likely to get it, regardless of if
you produce fine art, pure crap, or something between. Other than
that perhaps we need a definition of what a designer is and what
folks consider to be designers? Designers # 1-16? Is a designer
someone with current mass paradigm approval?

If you want to create something, go for it. Who cares what the label
is. With luck you’ll make enough to eat, plus some, by doing and
creating something worthwhile. Without luck no one will like what you
create and you may starve.

Which leads me to most artists dilemma. Should we follow our muse
and create/design what we want to, OR should we make what sells in
order to have more of the American consumerbian dream?

The world is still flat!
Sierra Salin near Frisco

When was the last time you saw an architect with a bricklayer's
trowel or a jackhammer in his hands ? One thinks, the other makes.

Um, excuse me, but that analogy isn’t quite as good as you might
think. My father has been a rock mason/brick layer for 30+ years and
I can promise you I have heard him complain about architect’s lack
of practical knowledge and workable designs as often as you all have
discussed jewerly designers. And architect’s HAVE to go to school to
be what they are. Degrees and book learning are wonderfully useful
tools, but as has been pointed out many times on Orchid, time and
experience at the task can be far more important.

Dawn B.

Bead stringer, wire twister, solderer, fabricator, etcetera in the
rainy spring of central Texas. The tomato plants are growing and so
is the toddler (who spontaneously potty trained this month with no
help from us).

Hi Brian,

Here's a thought about the designer vs. trained whatever argument:
When was the last time you saw an architect with a bricklayer's
trowel or a jackhammer in his hands ? One thinks, the other makes. 

In another life I worked in the construction trade (I still do on
Wed. with Habitat for Humanity). I’ll have to say this about many of
the architect designed projects (usually homes) I worked on. The use
of building materials & labor in an architect designed project of
this size is usually wasteful. A good carpenter or general contractor
will produce a better house faster & for less money.

I think the same thing occurs in most businesses, the better product
is made by the guy who has ‘been there, done that’.

Dave

Here's a thought about the designer vs. trained whatever argument:
When was the last time you saw an architect with a bricklayer's
trowel or a jackhammer in his hands ? One thinks, the other makes. 

The layer between the architect and construction trades is the
engineering disciplines. These are folks translating from the
architect’s concepts to designs that can be efficiently built by the
trades.

In jewelry there is not this middle layer doing the translation
between the designer’s concept and craftsperson actually making the
piece. The discussion for a ‘real’ jewelry designer to have bench
experience is really a call for the designer to have the knowledge of
what the craftsperson can efficiently do. And more importantly what
can not or will take excess time to do.

The making of a good designer takes two parts. First the creative
skills to create the concepts and designs. Secondly is the knowledge
and understanding of what it takes to make the piece (translation of
concept to design). For some this second part can only be gained thru
years at the bench. Others have an ability to gain this knowledge
quickly in other ways.

We are all different and learn in different ways. The creation of a
jewelry designer can happen in a variety of ways.

Norman

Hi Elaine:

What was the question? Could be a timing thing, or people not
feeling their work qualified, or they did, but they didn't have a
good picture. Or they had a really cool piece, but it's about to be
in a show somewhere and can't be posted on Orchid just yet. 

First off, thank you very much for helping me to move on. I got
stuck there for a little while.

My question was, “How did it feel when you had that first thought,
your ‘original thought’ ?” There are people on the list who I consider
to be very innovative and extremely talented. I am hoping to travel
in July or so to meet one and learn. People emulate other people’s
work all the time. They look at the current trends and say “oh yeah,
I can make that too” but then there are the people out there who are
just walking down the road one day and say “I wonder what a piece of
asphalt would look like in one of my pendants?” or " “you know, I bet
if I take the wing of a moth and some cayenne pepper, float them in
some epoxy…that would look really cool” I am just curious.

I find writers fascinating. They wake every morning and someone
inevitably says to them “what are you going to do today?” “I’m going
to write” They don’t really know if they will ever be published, they
don’t know if anyone will read. They just write, consistently. It’s
what they are made of. What fortitude. I just find writers and people
with very innovative work incredibly brave and also interesting.

Best Regards
Kim Starbard
Cove Beads

Bravo, Cameron.

I don’t think Picasso aspired to be a house painter…lol, and I bet
there were plenty of house painters who thought his work to be
garbage.

Good house painting is a skill and a talent. Being able to bring a
canvas to life is a skill and a talent as well.

I don’t like people who brow beat others with their “expertise.” You
may be experienced, but on some level, you are very very insecure.

Bayla