So glad to hear Krohn is spreading their ill will around, and not
just to me!- in a sense…They should not be spreading anything
except good product, that as you confirmed has changed -
dramatically- since the 1990’s…I recently found an old can ( rust on
the top typical of their pre-enamel lined cans, that still weren’t
the nitrile lined cans they SHOULD be using… anyway, it came out
clear, no residues, no clay, no “soap” - although they will not
divulge what soap it is…so I question that itis a soap at all,
probably just a foaming agent (sodium laureth sulphate) they had
extra of from another non jewelry related product ( as they
manufacture a lot of junk chemical compounds that are quite
environmentally UNSOUND…
As I have said before, as an industry Krohn needs to have a good
talking to…Perhaps, Andrea Hill would care to confront them on
their manufacturing quality control, and customer safety data
dissemination?
Helen, What can you tell me about Aluminum Potassium sulfate ( AlK
(SO4)2)?
also I have been eyeing my kodak GBX replenisher - for one ;it is
primarily Potassium Sulfite, and Sodium Sulfite, with a bit of
diethylene glycol and hydroquinone ( to keep the mosquitoes away!I
suppose) and thinking, that would work for a variety of uses. Also I
have some GBX Fixer that sounds to me like an ideal ultra pickle :
sodium bisulfite, ammonium thiosulfate, sodium acetone, and ammonium
sulfite-oh yeah, and water!..What is your professional opinion, if
you have one, on using these compounds…I’m tempted. I have cases of
the stuff and it’s sitting there with no darkroom- but plenty of
metal begging for a dip!
I posted the question last year and not one person responded…hoping
you will concur that it sounds like a reasonable heavy duty pickle
for non-ferrous metals.
G’day; I hope to clarify some of the ‘mystery’ regarding pickle as
used by jewellers to remove fire stain and sulphide deposits. The
frequently used material seems to be Sparex, but I understand that
recent batches have an unwanted brown material when dissolved in
water, so an alternative is sought. Almost any chemical which
ionises in water is suitable. That is, it must have a hydrogen atom
able to dissociate from the chemical. I personally use 10% sulphuric
acid - but then I have a lifetime’s training in laboratory practice.
However, the original Sparex was sodium bisulphATE, that is, sodium
hydrogen sulph_ATE_, NaHSO4. This is often confused with sodium
bisulphITE which is also called sodium sodium hydrogen sulphITE.
NaHSO3 and sodium sulphITE Na2SO3 This is often used as a mild
bleach and a sterilizer, used by brewers, and I use it for
disinfecting kitchen cutting boards. Both may be used as a pickle,
but the sulphITE has a strong smell of sulphur dioxide - like burning
sulphur - so the bisulphATE is preferred. Other chemicals such as
citric acid; tartaric acid and alum (aluminium sulphATE) are
suitable. And even lemon juice at a pinch!
Sodium bisulphATE is also sold as ‘pH down’ for pools and is much
cheaper.
It seems sensible to follow the advice of those who have converted
to the swimming pool chemical "pH down"
Unfortunately I live in Colorado where pools are not common. So
local home centers don’t carry pool chemicals. I have purchased from
a local pool service but found their inventory to be erratic. And
forget the hot tub stores. They mark their chemicals up so high and
carry only small amounts. Plus you have to deal with hot tub sales
people.
The couple who own my local rock shop will be retiring soon so I
will need to find a regular source. I guess I’ll just have to bite
the bullet and pay for shipping and hazardous chemical surcharge and
buy it from my usual jewelry suppliers.
Rick Copeland
Silversmith and Lapidary Artisan
Rocky Mountain Wonders
Colorado Springs, Colorado http://rockymountainwonders.com
Yes you’re right, there seems to be a lot of confusion. I have
posted a few posts explaining what my research dug up, ie. that
sodium bisulphite (NaHSO3) converts to sodium bisulphate (NaHSO4) on
contact with air. I was also informed originally that "pH down"
bought for pools has sodium bisulphITE as the active ingredient but I
have since been informed that some of the pool chemical has sodium
bisulphATE as the active ingredient. Either way, whether you buy the
pool stuff with the sodium bisulphITE or with sodium bisulphATE as
its active ingredient, they work equally well and are vastly less
expensive then Sparex 2 with none of the associated problems.
For anyone unsure about it I have just found an article possibly
written by Orchid’s RERourke called Pickling Gold and Silver and is
a guide on that site who’s name starts with e and ends with bay!
The couple who own my local rock shop will be retiring soon so I
will need to find a regular source. I guess I'll just have to bite
the bullet and pay for shipping and hazardous chemical surcharge
and buy it from my usual jewelry suppliers.
I’m a bit late to this thread, but I’m wondering if you know about
Rio Pickle for non-ferrous metals from Rio Grande - there are no
hazardous shipping charges on that pickle - description from
catalogue says - quote - ‘safer than sulphuric acid mixtures,
contains sodium bisulfate’.
Yes, I understand that as I too live in an area without many outdoor
pools - the cold, rainy UK. But I intend to find someone who will
sell this and am confident that I will find it here in the UK. I’m
not too bothered about having it shipped as I will obviously pay
what is necessary but it is the supplier’s responsibility to ship it
safely and they must have regulations to adhere to with regard to
the safe shipping of hazardous chemicals.
The internet’s a wonderful invention and you can pretty much find
anything you want out there in the big wide world. I think if you buy
it in large enough quantities, even with the surcharge for shipping,
it will probably still be worthwhile and less expensive than Sparex
2. It is the same chemical and just because you are a jeweller
shouldn’t mean that you have to pay the huge prices that they charge
at jewellery supply houses.
By the way, I really like your silver and turquoise jewellery.
Unfortunately I live in Colorado where pools are not common. So
local home centers don't carry pool chemicals.
Have a Wal-Mart nearby? try their order online process They sell it
with their seasonal summer pools and usually year round with their
jacuzzi and spa products…may be in the garden center, and is kept
there in most home improvement stores (Lowe’s, Home Depot’s,
Costco, etc.)… another source is called cheapchemicals.com,Not a
whopping inventory but some useful stuff, nitric acid, NaSo4, methyl
iodide, etc. they don’t consider it hazardous- I think at one time I
paid about 1.50 per lb from them…
This is a very old thread and there is probably more recent information available. A lot of us use this for our pickle indoors. Look up the MSDS fo more information…Rob
Are there indoor swimming pools in the world? How about multi-pool complex? Sodium bisulfate is more commonly sold as swimming pool acid. It is what helps keep the ph in pools at the proper levels. I’m going out on a diving board here and saying yes it’s safe.
Concentration of the chemical in discussion in a pool or spa could be very different than for use as pickle for metal could be two very different things.
Sodium bisulfate is used as a food additive and as a therapeutic agent to dissolve kidney stones in animals; it is considered “generally safe” as a food ingredient. But concentration DOES matter! Think of it as an acid, no more and no less. It won’t produce harmful fumes any more than, say, hot vinegar; just acid fumes (in extreme cases) but no new chemicals you need to look out for. Where I have taken jewelry classes uses the pool acidifier version, indoors, crockpot on all day, no problems. All that said, I just use citric acid (3 tbsp per one or two cups) and it lasts quite a bit. Being biodegradable, there are no concerns about disposal. Oh, and I do have a PhD in biochemistry, so at least I trust my own judgement haha.
Ricardo - while the sodium bisulfate pickle is safe - when you dispose of it, it has copper in the solution. That needs to be removed prior to disposal. I’m sure you know that, but others reading your comment may assume that they can just dump any “safe” pickle. Copper is toxic to fish and other aquatic animals and we don’t want that in our water.
Judy Hoch
I read “Being biodegradable, there are no concerns about disposal” and immediately thought about the many articles I’d read about how the copper that is dissolved in pickle is terrifically toxic to fish and other wildlife. I searched and found, what I thought was the best article I’d seen on safe disposal. It is on Shoebox Studio’s website and is written by Julia Lowther. She gives explicit instructions on safely disposing pickle: https://www.shoeboxstudio.com/2016/03/02/be-kind-to-fish-dispose-of-all-spent-pickle-responsibly/
Well, there you go. I stand corrected; that’s what happens when I lose sight of the forest for the trees. Contaminated pickle is, true, very toxic. I like the Shoebox Studio recommendation, as copper hydroxide is minimally soluble and therefore not “bioavailable.” Thanks for that, Marian424.
I intended not to reply to this topic but here I am.
Try to plate copper out of your pickle which is very simple. You’ll be amazed how little it will be. We are talking about traces here.
Second, copperoxide is a very common used plant fertilizer and helpts plants in many way’s. Check it out on internet.https://www.tfi.org/sites/default/files/tfi-copper.pdf
Copper is as poisonous as water and yes toomuch water can kill people. That doesn’t mean that one can drink neutralized pickle but humans need copper aswell. As far as i can read about it we’re talking about 2 of 3milligrams/day Copper in drinking water
It’s te amount that makes the difference not the element.
Toomuch of anything is harmfull
This will cause a lot of reactions but stay real with pickle with copper being so harmfull.
Again this is getting blown out of proportion.
First the element copper is in our soil. Where do you think Turquoise comes from.
2. Depends on where you live how bad the consequences of dumping it outside will be. What is bad in sandy soil near an aquafer now tar below you like Florida where I live, is far different from what it is like in caliche in the Southwest USA.
3. Next what is the composition of the soil. Some soils are acid type. But here in Florida it is highly basic with all the calcium carbonate naturally in the soil. We have to add acid to get the plants to grow well.
4. The same article Miriam found has been posted here before. YOU DO NOT NEED HAZMAT precautions nor slaked lime to dispose of pickle. Yes put it in a bucket like that lady did, them add Baking soda. Costco sells it in big 5 pound bags which will be enough for a few years worth of pickle. All you do is buy a quarter cup measuring cup you add the baking soda. It will bubble like crazy, keep adding it as long as the pickle keeps bubbling. It will quickly become less and less. When it no longer bubbles the pickle is neutralzed. You don’t have to do all the craziness of letting it settle and pouring off the water on top, but if you want to, you can. Just leave the bucket lightly covered in your garage where it won’t be tipped over, and it will dry out into what is a solid billet of fine grain powdery stuff. That you can take to a waste disposal facility in a plastic bag.
5. If you are worried about the copper, you can plate it out like the last gentleman said. But I keep a big container of spent pickle in another part of my garage tightly covered. I use it when I make large copper vessels, and want to hide any of the solder seams. I just put the item in the spent pickle and leave it there over night. It gets a nice crystaline look to it. Copper is the best material for microbial surfaces because it is soo good at killing off bacterial residue it comes in contact with. Think of the people who tried to sell copper infused masks for covid. It’s already been pointed out that it is needed for our health. What about copper cooking pots? I can go on, but most will get the idea. Now for the fish. Yes if you dump it straight into a lake it will kill off the fish near by. Because it is toxic in the amount those fish will ingest. None of us will be dumping into a lake or stream or pond in large amounts. Do not fear copper, go learn about it and why we need it to live.
Now for dumping down the drain or into a septic tank. The sewer if you neutralize it and have to your satisfaction taken out as much copper as you want to work at, you can either with or without the copper, dump it into the sewer system. The copper is heavier than the water. It will also help to kill off bacteria as it flows to the treatment plant. At the treatment plant it will be filtered and the copper captured. If some of it makes it through that filter it ends up in leech fields that will evaporate off the liquid part leaving the solid part which is made up of things far worse than the copper. Call it the filth of society. As to a septic tank, the worst thing it will do is in maybe 150 years or more it will have a enough sludge of copper that has layered in the bottom to cause a problem with space. The biggest problem is copper will kill off all the bacteria that breaks down what is put into the septic tank. You need that bacteria. That’s why you have products that are sold to add to your septic system to keep it healthy.
Do not fear pickle. Be smart and learn without the fear factor. I truly think this discussion should be put into the FAQ so that new comers cn see it right away. Not long ago a person with a PHD in chemistry backed me up on this. I only have 5 years of college chemistry from general through bio chem. I have too much fun take a myriad of classes on different subjects that getting sick and not being able to go onto medical school, I never went further than a BS degree.