Safe pickle?

I was asked by a couple of people what my “safe pickle” was. Someone
said that it is just the same as Sparex 2 but it isn’t. I use
Aluminium sulphate and Sparex is Sodium bisulphate. Its chemistry
will almost certainly be similar and have a similar level of
"safety" but as with any chemicals stronger than water precautions
must be taken.

On a light-hearted note, when I started doing a PhD in Chemistry
(didn’t finish it), we even had to fill in COSSH forms and risk
assessments when using water!

Helen

Oh, I’ve just found Mr Rourke’s post from last year regarding Sparex
and his terrible experiences of the company supplying it and he
mentions the “pH down” as sodium bisulphite, used sterilization and
as a general antiseptic and bleaching agent.

I guess with it’s use in the pool industry and as an antiseptic it
can be pretty safe but then it depends on its molar concentration. In
concentrations used in pools it probably wouldn’t be a very effective
or efficient pickling solution but at stronger concentrations it
would be less safe than when used in a pool. I mean swimming pools
are “safe” but the nasty chlorine-based chemicals used are lethal
when used neat, it’s all relative.

Helen

What do you mean by a pHdecreaser? Is it some sort of buffer
solution? 

It’s a pool or hot tub chemical. You buy it at a pool supply place or
in the summer at Target.

It’s called Pool down, Ph Down, Spa down, various names. Use as
pickle.

Elaine
http://www.CreativeTextureTools.com

Margaret,

Apparently pH decreaser is sodium bisulpite (with an I) whereas
Sparex is sodium bisulpate (with an A). The former is NaHSO3 and the
latter is NaHSO4. They are clearly similar and the sodium bisulphite
will convert to sodium bisulphate on exposure to air so to all
intents and purposes you are right they are virtually the same.

Helen

ok folks…we are talking about pickle here: ph decreaser…also known
as ph down, ph lowerer is another name for sodium bisulphate.

it is the same thing as sparex #2, minus the clay they (krohn
industries) add for filler… it is far cheaper than sparex, you need
the same amount as sparex ( both are approx 93.5% na2su/sodium
bisulphate… this has been covered, over and over in my tips for
saving money…and in many threads about pickle alternatives to
sparex… the msds 's are the same for ph down ( a brand name)or any
ph lowerers, found in any pool store or home store’s garden, or
swimming pool maintenance sections and sparex #2.

a 5 lb tub is around 15 bucks, a gallon jug is generally around 4-5
bucks, and at the end of summer many retailers like wal-mart, let it
go at half that price…time to stock up for a year!..or spend five
times that on a two pound bag of it from krohn, or any supplier of
jewelry making chemicals…

as far as safety… the same precautions that you would use with any
chemical apply!!!period…:

wear eye protection when mixing, avoid contact with skin and eyes,
don’t drink it, don’t pour it into the sewer, or any disposal of
choice until neutralized. always add acid to water…

it is no more safe than hydrogen peroxide at industrial strength or
glacial acetic acid. or citric acid when concentrated enough to work
for removing flux glass from precious metals…

it is as safe as alum in highly concentrated form, it is as safe as
any chemical you would not drink, get on mucus membranes, or put in
your eyes…it is neutralized on contact with bicarbonate of
soda/baking soda…so keep a big plastic jar of it around for all
neutralizations of the most common chemicals in your studios… ph
lowerer and ph down, (or sodium bisulfate) has absoloutely nothing to
do with sustaining life on the planet earth in the context of jewelry
making!!! it simply, quickly, and effectively pickles gold, silver
and all alloys of the two… except purple gold(aual2) due to the
addition of aluminum, which it will react negatively with causing the
colouration to change on contact, and is not a reversible process…so
buy ph down and save money compared to sparex or jewelry suppliers
middle-man fees…easy…

r. e. rourke

Someone asked how much citric acid to use. My answer is “some”.

I put about a cup per quart, I guess. I don’t think it really
matters. If it seems just too slow, add more. I have not heard of
problems from too-strong pickle, presuming you don’t forget it
overnight.

I have been using citric acid for at least a year now, and have
absolutely no complaints about it. I bought 10 lbs of it on line for
$2-3/lb (locally, it is $6/lb). This will last a l o n g time.

Noel

I'm not a chemist, but it's the same stuff as Sparex, only perhaps
even more pure. No more or less safe than Sparex. 

I’d bet that “pH-decreaser” is the same as “pH-Minus” (sodium
bisulfate), used in swimming pools. I bought a big container of it
at Target. It does form a slightly acidic solution, and if you leave
your jewelry in it for hours (say, overnight), it will begin to etch
it away. But an hour or two is no problem (assuming you haven’t
thrown a huge quantity of pH-Minus into your pickle).

In the Orchid Archives, there are several discussions on pH-Minus
and Sparex.

Judy Bjorkman
Upstate New York

1 Like

10 to one ratio for citric pickle

8-9 ozs dry to 1/2 gallon of water (weight 5 pounds or 90 ozs a pint
per pound the world around)

Silver & Cameo Heritage Jewelry
www.corneliusspick.com

It's called Pool down, Ph Down, Spa down, various names. Use as
pickle. 

Yes thanks. I discovered what it was after asking the question (I
always seem to do that). Apparently it is sodium bisulphite and as
you say it is readily available. What amuses me is that apparently it
converts to sodium bisulphate (the active ingredient in Sparex 2)
upon contact with the air.

Helen
Preston, UK

Hi,

we are talking about pickle heRe: ph decreaser..also known as ph
down, ph lowerer is another name for sodium bisulphate. it is the
same thing as sparex #2, minus the clay they (krohn industries) add
for filler.. 

To be pedantic again, it’s not exactly the same. pH down is sodium
bisulphite NaHSO3 (note the bisulphite) and Sparex 2 is sodium
bisulphate NaHSO4 (note the bisulphate). However, as I found out
yesterday, the sulphite becomes the sulphate upon exposure to the
air and so it may as well be the same thing, which is why after
reading you post from last year and finding out what is is, and doing
a bit of research, I implied to Sparex users (well one at least) that
it may be a heap more economical to use the pH down - just as you
have done many times before apparently.

By the way I referred to you as Mr Rourke, then realised that I’d
made an assumption about your gender without knowing one way or the
other. My sincere apologies for this.

Helen Hill
Preston, UK

I've just found Mr Rourke's post from last year regarding Sparex
and his terrible experiences of the company supplying it and he
mentions the "pH down" as sodium bisulphite, used sterilization
and as a general antiseptic and bleaching agent. 

Helen, that’s sodium bisulphate, not sodium bisulphite. The later is
an alkali that will raise, not lower the pH.

Margaret

Dear Margaret,

that's sodium bisulphate, not sodium bisulphite. The later is an
alkali that will raise, not lower the pH. 

What are you saying is sodium bisulphate? I think you’ve misread what
I said. I did some research into it as a number of people use pH down
as a pickle and some use Sparex 2. I am saying that ph down is sodium
bisulphite which is born out by everything I read when researching it
and that Sparex 2 is sodium bisulphate. The MSDS sheets back this up.
Also, the active ingredient in pH down becomes the active ingredient
in Sparex 2 when in contact with air. Even if it didn’t, the much
cheaper, more readily available pH down seems to be just as effective
a pickle as Sparex 2 by all accounts of those who use it.

pH is a relative thing. The product called pH down or similar,
whether it’s an acid or an alkali, it depends where you are starting
on the pH scale. If it didn’t reduce the pH, it wouldn’t be called pH
down so it obviously has a lower pH value than what it is trying to
reduce the pH of, if that makes sense. You can’t just say that
because it’s an alkali, it will raise the pH, yes if we were talking
about just pure water at pH 7 or an acidic solution, that would be
the case but in the case of swimming pools, which are very alkaline
(alkaline is anything from 8-14), it will lower the pH as long as it
has a lower pH number but it can still be alkaline itself. I have a
first class degree in chemistry so have a fair understanding of the
pH scale.

Helen Hill
Preston, UK

Hi Helen,

You might want to check your source of or possibly in
the UK there some versions of the ph down that are as you say sodium
bisulfite. But my bottle of it is definitely labeled sodium
bisulfate and as far as I know all the powdered ph decreasers sold in
the US are sodium bisulfate not sodium bisulfite.

Jim

James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

360-756-6550

Hi Jim,

The source I used was American actually. But I’m not surprised
because, as I pointed out, the bisulphite converts to bisulphate on
contact with air so they are pretty much the same thing. The whole
point which perhaps wasn’t that obvious (as I do get engrossed in
the the whole chemistry thing sometimes) was that anyone using Sparex
2 would be much better off buying huge tubs of the stuff you put in
pools.

Helen

Helen,

Precisely…It is all relative…

(i don’t know where the sterilization and antiseptic portion came
in…i think that was Re: a post on alcohol!) Matter-of-fact after
writing yesterday’s post on Sparex and Ph down, I decided to clean
out my chemical storage unit and eliminate old, unusable or
unnecessary products lurking under lock and key… I found a bag of
sparex…so it’s relatively new in the scheme of Krohn’s switch from
cans to (way-too-thin and with an ineffective closure system) plastic
bags…

Since I have 3 types of pickle in use always (my own stripping
strength recipe, fairly strong Nitric acid, and flux glass removal
strength Sodium bisulphate ) I figured rather than toss the Sparex
I’d replenish the NaSo4.

. Upon adding it to warm water in a clean ceramic liner from a
slow-cooker, and stirring until dissolved I was left with a pot of
solution of which the entire surface was covered with a thick dark
brown clay sludge… again. ! &. Can or bag- the product is
inconsistent at best… regardless of packaging. And as usual, “Al”-
perhaps a chemist, but the “tech support” person with Krohn said
"it’s just soap", “lay a paper towel over it and it usually soaks it
up”. Then he asked what it looked like when i opened the bag ( “white
granules” was my reply), and proceeded to tell me that" in summer
this happens because of heat. and humidity". I asked" in a climate
controlled environment at 15-33% humidity, and an ambient temperature
between 60-68 degrees F, how could that possibly be effecting the
product’s stability. He said " before it gets to you it’s stored in
our warehouse and it gets hot in there in summer"…these are verbatim
quotes by the way… I said" So you’re saying this is this is
basically Sodium Bisulphate and soap then, right?", “well, the soap
is for cleaning” I asked for cleaning what? It means at least an
extra step or two for me and my studio " he was quiet for a moment,
and then said " how much Sparex do you use?", I said at one point I
was going through about 40 pounds a year. He then suggested I buy it
in a 45 Lb drum. I questioned the consistency of the product and he
said “there are no gaurantees with sparex”. I suggested that that
wasn’t a great sales pitch, and asked him" why then does Sodium
Bisulphite for pools - which has the same percentage of acid and
fillers as sparex never turn brown, or appear like brown sugar once a
container is opened?". He said, "its heat and humidity. (. in a very
gruff unpleasant, unwilling to actually do anything to make it right

  • like replacing bad product, or providing a fresh sample, etc. ),
    and sometimes the ingredients are a little different". I asked,
    “different… how, in the kind of soap, or other fillers or do the
    fillers change periodically”…Damn if he didn’t accuse me of trying
    to get the “secret formula” out of him- again- I’m certain he did not
    remember my call about three years ago regarding the same thing, or
    his response, attitude, etc. I said, anyone can look at the MSDS and
    find out the ingredients, itt’s not like rocket science or even
    advanced chemistry , just repacked chemical and filler…He said to
    "call [ him] back if there is any more problems with it". And that
    was the end of the conversation…

Which supports my point that Krohn is not a very customer oriented
company, the tech support guy that told me 3 years ago they were
using clay as a filler, is now saying it’s soap, and that “all
jewelry gets rinsed after pickling anyway right…and that pool Sodium
Bisulphite is different from their s”…

So if you believe everything one reads…or hears…then relativity on
its own merits is questionable…

You might want to check your source of or possibly in
the UK there some versions of the ph down that are as you say
sodium bisulfite. But my bottle of it is definitely labeled sodium
bisulfate and as far as I know all the powdered ph decreasers sold
in the US are sodium bisulfate not sodium bisulfite. 

all of the variants work equally well as a pickle…Ph down- the pool
chemical-A Ph lowering agent is the cheapest equivalent to Sparex #2
on the market…And one doesn’t have to pay Krohn Industries for the
soap or what ever it is they decide to add as filler in a given year,
or considering the source, which “tech” you speak with at Krohn…they
are an abominable company AT LEST, at best- making a fortune off of a
highly unstable( if a heat wave causes the inert ingredients to
change the batch to something that has to be reprepared it is not
worth buying in the first place- nor distributing- and inconsistent
product, by those less informed at the alternatives and where to buy
the same ( NaSo4) unless you want to buy a 50 gallon drum of it-costs
about 62 cents a pound (US measurements), but shipping makes up for
any relative savings. So, the NaSO4- or Sodium Bisulphite sold in the
pool stores, garden centers, and wal-marts of the planet are a large
enough savings to warrant at least as an industry giving Krohn a run
for its bad corporate management, poor service, horrid yanqui
attitude and their refusal/paranoia at "divulging " product
particularly for those people that make jewlery but hate
computers and therefore don’t or won’t go look it up in the product’s
patent registration, or other free sources…Yet, need to
be respected regardless of age or of technological affinity and
recieve answers to - about Sparex #2 of all things.

About a year or so ago I asked that people stop supporting Krohn due
to the exact same lack of service and they refuse to
discuss civilly…perhaps I should have said I was with poison
control…but I know where to buy a far cheaper and exactly identical
chemical so hanging up the phone seemed the sanest choice…and a
letter or two to the BBB ( for what they are actually worth!) and the
“chemical police” will serve my purposes well enough. IIf all you
jewelers, and teachers would simply stop patronizing them on both
large and small scales, then they might get the message through their
thick yanqui skulls…that customer is not optional but
a requirement of selling to the public, and that someone requesting

  • not through a 1-800 # probably has a good reason for
    calling…

Yes, when I read you post from last year and looked into it I
figured that when you can go to your pool supply store or Walmart and
buy huge tubs of what is essentially the same chemical or in some
cases a chemical that will convert to sodium bisulphate on contact
with air, then it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to pay more
money for what you have pointed out is an inconsistent and poor
product from a company with very poor customer relations. The chap
you spoke to certainly did the company no favours and it sounds as
though he didn’t know what he was talking about in any case. And why
put clay or soap into the product? That annoys me, they bulk it out
to get greater volume so they can charge you more for a small amount
of the active ingredient. If sodium bisulphite or sodium bisulphate
is what you want then that’s what you want to pay for.

I do get a bit wrapped in the whole chemistry thing sometimes as
that is my background but I was merely trying to point out something
that you yourself had clearly pointed out in the past. I will be
looking to see if I can get pH down here in the UK and if it will be
more economical than the aluminium sulphate that I am using. I am
sure it will be.

Helen
Preston, UK

For anyone who is put off by Sparex #2 pickle and it’s additives that
make retrieving your work from the murky depths almost impossible,
you may want to try Ottotech tm Pickle Part No. 145.142. This comes
in a pair of 2.5 pound screw top plastic containers. I was surprised
when mixing the first batch— it was as clear as the water
itself—no impurities! I could actually see items on the bottom of
the pickle pot. Sure, I know that the pool chemicals are a better
buy, but before I was aware of that source, this is what I bought. I
could not be happier with the results. http://ottofrei.com

J Collier
Small Scale Metalsmith

And why put clay or soap into the product? 

I believe one source of sodium bisulphate is the result of some
chemical process used in manufacturing. That is where the other
impurities come from. I couldn’t find anything on the net to support
this but I believe it has been discussed on Orchid and should be in
the archives. Weeding it out is the problem given the number of hits
searching Orchid for words like “sodium bisulphate” and “pickle”.
Maybe someone with a sharper memory or better search techniques than
I can cite the source.

For years I’ve been using what I thought was Sparax. The local rock
shop bought in bulk and repackaged it as pickle and in parenthesis
(Sparax). So I had them order 45lbs of Sparax. Boy was I in for a
disappointment. I found the brown slime that gathered on the top to
be a menace and couldn’t come up with a way to remove it. I called
the manufacturer of Sparax, Krohn Industries. They said to merely
blot the slime off with paper towels. Then got defensive when I asked
them why the brown slime? They said it just showed up in some
batches. Anyway, I remember using Sparax back in the 70’s and not
having the brown slime problem so something changed over the years.

After talking with the owner of the rock shop it ended up that they
were buying Grobet’s pickle in bulk and repackaging it with the
misleading labeling. I still buy the pickle from them because of the
convenience of having it prepackaged in one gallon mixes. But I
always verify this is Grobet’s product not Sparax.

BTW. I have a 45 lb bucket of Sparax (minus however much I used to
mix up a gallon of pickle) that I will gladly give to anyone who
wants to pick it up. I really don’t want to get into shipping a
caustic chemical. Contact me off list if interested.

Rick Copeland
Silversmith and Lapidary Artisan
Rocky Mountain Wonders
Colorado Springs, Colorado
http://rockymountainwonders.com

Rick,

And why put clay or soap into the product?

I believe one source of sodium bisulphate is the result of some
chemical process used in manufacturing. That is where the other
impurities come from. 

Yes you’re probably right although I’m sure there are some
unscrupulous companies out there who just bulk it out to make more
money. That’s the cynic in me!

It seems that you have had the same bad experiences as R.E. Rourke
regarding the unfriendliness of the manufacturer of Sparex. And
you’ve had the same experience regarding the horrible slime as other
users. It seems sensible to follow the advice of those who have
converted to the swimming pool chemical “pH down” or similar (sodium
bisulphite or sometimes sodium bisulphate by its chemical name) as
it appears to work just as well, has none of the slime problems and
is much less expensive to buy in the first place.

Helen
Preston, UK